snowboarders aren't bad (well, not all of them)
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Fleetwood
February 21, 2009
Member since 12/6/2008 🔗
69 posts
I'd like to preface this post by saying that I don't typically get involved in the "snowboarders vs. skiers" debate. When I am on the slopes I try my best to be respectful of The Code and everyone that I encounter when I am there. To each his/her own, I say.

With that said, I do cringe a little every time I hear disparaging comments by skiers about snowboarders, but I usually just let it roll off. A few weeks ago, I was on the lift with my buddy (a snowboarder) and two skiers. One of the skiers, a older woman who seemed nice enough, started bashing snowboarders talking about how they all operate with reckless abandon, so on and so forth. I know she was not talking about me, but at that very moment it got under my skin enough to say something in return. I leaned up a bit and in a calm, rational manner said something along the lines of, "You know, the last time I got run down on the slopes it was by a skier." This was a true statement. It seemed to hush her up, nothing more was said, and we soon parted ways.

Yesterday at Wintergreen, I was riding the Big Acorn lift with an older skier. After we got situated, I said hello and asked how he was doing. He said fine, beautiful day, etc. The next comment -- or question -- from him was in what appeared to be an almost contentious tone: "...so have you always been a snowboarder, or are you a convert?" My first thought was a defensive one, but before I responded I relaxed and told him the truth: I skied a few times as a teenager, but did not grow up around the slopes. I skated a lot as a youngster and surfed a bit, so snowboarding just came more natural to me. After that, we had a pleasant, albeit brief, conversation to the top. We wished each other a good day, and moved on. I like to think that somehow our interaction resonated positively with how this guy views snowboarders. Of course, he may not have a problem with snowboarders to begin with, and maybe I read too much into it. Either way, you only have one chance to make a first impression.

I saw something else yesterday. A skier bit the dust at the top of Big Acorn. He lost a ski and ended up sliding quite a ways down the slope. A snowboarder came over the jump at the top, and upon landing, redirected himself in order to grab the ski, and in the process wiped out a bit himself. He hopped up, rode down the slope, and delivered the ski to the downed skier. I had seen this snowboarder a couple of times already during the day. He was very good, and often rode very fast (but in control). I imagined he had been unfairly targeted at some point for the simple fact that he was young snowboarder. Yet here he was willing to risk injury to himself to help out someone in need. I wondered who else witnessed what happened, and whether or not it helped shape a more positive image of the "young snowboarder".

Look, I understand the image of the snowboarder. Snowboarding attracts a younger crowd and so by default is associated with that young, rebellious crowd. As an "older" snowboarder, I get it and I do what I can to bridge the gap. It seems to me that the judgment is a bit one-sided most of the time though, and there appears to sometimes be an automatic disdain for a snowboarder at the very sight of him/her. Is this really necessary? I just ask that skiers -- well, everyone -- take the time to recognize this, and not always focus on the bad.

Now get out there an snowboard (or ski, if you so chose)!
Clay
February 21, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
I too am a big fan of snowboarders (I have raised one). I just wish they wouldn't sit in the middle of the trail grin <JOKE!!!!> No need to start that debate again!!
fishnski
February 21, 2009
Member since 03/27/2005 🔗
3,530 posts
One MAIN problem with Snowboarders is the fact that a lot of them ...SUCK..Most of them would be better off Skiing because what they might call Snowboarding is nothing more than getting down the mountain Sideways & shaving off as much snow as posible! Its a pleasure to watch the good ones as they carve up turns on edges but it must be a level that most cannot achieve.

I'm a Skier & feel that a majority of boarders would have more fun joining if it wasn't for peer pressure...my niece for one trys & trys & can only get to a certain level...this is the same girl who was swishing down blue slopes on Ski's when she 1st got into "Snow sports"

I grew up on skateboards & surfed also but feel that the art or science of skiing is a much better experience especially for a lot of you "Bore-ders!
GRK
February 21, 2009
Member since 12/19/2007 🔗
404 posts
I think boarders are just like skiers...polite people will be polite on snowboards and jerks will be jerks on skis. Most snowboarders I talk to are polite and respectful.

Fish does have a point though. My daughter is obsessed with Skiing. But no one at school is interested (middle school). They keep telling her how much cooler boarding is but when pressed she says they don't seem to do it very often.

Its fun watching a good snowboarder hit jumps and casually carve down the hill like it was nothing...and the clothing is fun to look at as well. (Although the highlight this season for me was the skier wearing a kilt).

When you have relatively small resorts with crowds like we have in the Mid-Atlantic there is bound to be some friction. But if there were no snowboards, you would still have big crowds on skis. Then we would be complaining about teenagers on skis, or those darned twin-tips and skiing backward etc.
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Fleetwood
February 22, 2009
Member since 12/6/2008 🔗
69 posts
Originally Posted By: fishnski
One MAIN problem with Snowboarders is the fact that a lot of them ...SUCK..Most of them would be better off Skiing because what they might call Snowboarding is nothing more than getting down the mountain Sideways & shaving off as much snow as posible! Its a pleasure to watch the good ones as they carve up turns on edges but it must be a level that most cannot achieve.

I'm a Skier & feel that a majority of boarders would have more fun joining if it wasn't for peer pressure...my niece for one trys & trys & can only get to a certain level...this is the same girl who was swishing down blue slopes on Ski's when she 1st got into "Snow sports"

I grew up on skateboards & surfed also but feel that the art or science of skiing is a much better experience especially for a lot of you "Bore-ders!


You are right fishnski, a lot of them - to use your words - suck. What about skiers though? I guess they never fall down in the lift line or getting off the lift, camp out in the middle of the slope, shave off snow, ski recklessly down terrain they have no business being on, or worse yet, take their small children onto terrain they have no business being on. Oh wait, I have witnessed all of that.

Your elitist attitude and narrow perspective is part of the problem as far as I am concerned. You must have popped out of the womb an expert skier. Bravo.

Art and science? You are mistaken if you think there isn't as much "art and science" in snowboarding as there is in skiing. Perhaps the learning curve is longer because it is MORE complicated to become a proficient snowboarder. More importantly, it doesn't even matter. Instead of telling your neice she sucks and her efforts are hopeless for the cursed sport of snowboarding, maybe offer some words of encouragement.
Fleetwood
February 22, 2009
Member since 12/6/2008 🔗
69 posts
Originally Posted By: Clay
I too am a big fan of snowboarders (I have raised one). I just wish they wouldn't sit in the middle of the trail grin <JOKE!!!!> No need to start that debate again!!


Clay, if it makes you feel better, my 5-year old skis (for now anyway). Think of it as a snowboarder offset program.
smile
Fleetwood
February 22, 2009
Member since 12/6/2008 🔗
69 posts
Originally Posted By: GRK
I think boarders are just like skiers...polite people will be polite on snowboards and jerks will be jerks on skis. Most snowboarders I talk to are polite and respectful.


Right on GRK. And respect is a two-way street, right fishnski?
fishnski
February 22, 2009
Member since 03/27/2005 🔗
3,530 posts
You obviously made this post with the intent on jumping on any hint of Anti boarderism...You set a trap on a slow posting time period to liven things up..good for you!
The point of my post was to simply say that if it wasn't for this stubburn peerpressure..sort of like keeping your pants halfway down your backside & thinking its cool..or practicle...there would be more Boarders having more fun as skiers.
& I have never seen a group of Skiers milling around the middle of a slope having a little powwow...a group around a fallen skier/boarder yes...but not just having a personal party...

My new nickname is Fleet-WOOD(S) cool...Now..let me get back to my Snowwatching!..
guyforget
February 22, 2009
Member since 01/20/2009 🔗
24 posts
Why cant we all just ride snowlerblades?

Henley
February 22, 2009
Member since 02/21/2009 🔗
5 posts
Skiers don't sit down when they decide to stop in the middle of a run, but some of them definitely do stop.
Leo
February 22, 2009
Member since 11/15/2005 🔗
278 posts
Originally Posted By: guyforget
Why cant we all just ride snowlerblades?


I say Big Feet only.

KeithT
February 22, 2009
Member since 11/17/2008 🔗
383 posts
Fishnski is right, mostly what I see out there is really crappy boarding. When I see a good boarder or freeheeler out there it is a thing of beauty and I admire it. Once my daughter was working her way through the bumps on lower Eastwind and having a rough time of it. As I waited at the top to sweep, another skier said, "thats no place for a little girl." Keeping my thoughts to myself I reasoned--where else am I supposed to teach her bumps??. So (in that spirit) to all those crappy mid-A boarders out there, turn your heels to the fall line and scrape away.
DeepCreekSkier
February 22, 2009
Member since 02/22/2009 🔗
2 posts
I've been skiing for about 30 years, even before snowboards were seen in the MidAtlantic. I've even given it a few tries myself.

For the most part I can't say that boarders have any worst manners then other folks using the slopes. At least I can hear them when they come from behind :-)
itdoesntmatter
February 22, 2009
Member since 01/17/2007 🔗
127 posts
When 6 of them are sitting down at the top of angel drop at Whitetail blocking half of the slope, that is a problem. My daughgter boards, the other two ski. I know they have to stop and put on the binding, but some of them take the opportunity to just sit there and wait for friends. That is simply being inconsiderate of others on the slopes. FYI - my daughter can bend over and tighten the binding without sitting down. You don't have to park your butt in the middle of the slope to get going.
skier219
February 22, 2009
Member since 01/8/2005 🔗
1,318 posts
I just spent a week at Jackson Hole, and had zero issues with snowboarders. Zero. Yet in the mid-atlantic, snowboarders annoy me pretty much every run. I can only conclude it's a regional/educational/skill thing, and we're dealing with the bottom of the barrel here. I was once told by a local snowboarding instructor that they have a much lower percentage of snowboarders taking snowboard lessons than skiers taking skiing lessons, so perhaps there is a correlation.

For a moment, remove the particular choice of equipment from the picture. I am annoyed by:

*People who get off the lift and then stop or sit down in the way of everyone else, making it hazardous for lift traffic, and in some cases, impossible to get around.

*People who stop or sit down in a dangerous location in the middle of a trail.

*People in lift lines with no manners or notion how to merge, alternate, group up, and not bash others' equipment with their own.

*People on the lift who rest their equipment on top of mine, pressing it down to the point of discomfort.

*People who skid down the fall line scraping off the good snow.

*People who let their a$$-crack hang out of their pants in cold weather.

I don't care what equipment you're on, all of those things annoy they heck out of me. It's the "snow rider" and not the equipment they are on that is the factor. Unfortunately, I see more of these issues with boarders than skiers in the region, and I think that's where a lot of people are coming from with the anti-boarder sentiment. But for the record, I see plenty of skiers who I'd lump in the same category.

One specific issue with boarders is that the infrastructure at ski resorts was not originally setup for boarders, so they have natural obstacles when loading, riding, and unloading lifts. If there's a traverse, the boarders will have a tough time, and probably can't help hopping along, chopping up the snow, or walking and post-holing it up. Those end up becoming annoyances to skiers, but there's not much else the boarders can do. Something to keep in mind.

I've met plenty of boarders who are polite, courteous, and a joy to watch. A few weeks ago at Snowshoe, I rode the lift with a girl who asked if she could swing her board under my skis, and I was glad to accommodate her. At the top, she discussed which way she was going so we could get off the lift cleanly. And then she got off and slid quite a ways from the lift before buckling in. Clearly, she knew how to be a good snow rider, and was extending the same courtesies I'd offer myself. We need more skiers and boarders like that girl.
snowslider
February 22, 2009
Member since 06/21/2004 🔗
42 posts
It is good to hear the comments that contribute to reducing the divide between us.
It is good to promote the stoke of snowsports.
I am going to contribute to the cause by only stating the above positive comment.

Fleetwood
February 22, 2009
Member since 12/6/2008 🔗
69 posts
Originally Posted By: fishnski
You obviously made this post with the intent on jumping on any hint of Anti boarderism...You set a trap on a slow posting time period to liven things up..good for you!

On the contrary, I was hoping to persuade some folks that are quick to judge to take a moment to keep everything in perspective and give everyone a fair chance.

Like Skier219 stated, there are behaviors and actions that are inappropriate, annoying, etc., regardless of age or equipment of choice. Have I ever been guilty of some of these? More than likely, but not because I am a snowboarder. Am I conscious of my actions on the slopes? You bet, but I'm not perfect. Are these behaviors/actions displayed more by snowboarders? Perhaps, but I think the perception of the behaviors/actions by snowboarders far outweighs the reality, especially when you factor in that there are skiers guilty of some of the same things (yes, it is true).

Passing judgment on someone simply because they are a snowboarder is, well, prejudicial. If an individual's actions justify your opinions, then so be it. I'll back you 100%. But are you as quick to judge a skier acting in the same inappropriate manner? I hope so.
Originally Posted By: fishnski

The point of my post was to simply say that if it wasn't for this stubburn peerpressure..sort of like keeping your pants halfway down your backside & thinking its cool..or practicle...there would be more Boarders having more fun as skiers.
What does an individual's preference for where their waistline lands have to do with anything? But since you bring it up, "sagging" or whatever it is called is a fashion statement (for lack of a better word) that has spread throughout youth culture and has no direct relationship with the snowboarding culture. Do you think there aren't young skiers out there doing the same thing? I too find it a bit silly, but again, to each his own.

Snowboarders don't have any fun, or at least not as much fun as skiers? Interesting observation. I wasn't aware of that. I have no response other than I know how much fun I have. I cannot speak for anyone else.
Originally Posted By: fishnski

My new nickname is Fleet-WOOD(S) cool
Sorry, I don't get it. But there seems to be a lot about you that I don't get, but that's okay. There is room for us all. It looks like there a few skiers on here that understand what I am saying, and to them I say thanks. Let's work together to make every day on the snow a good one.

Peace.

P.S. fishnski, I love you. blush
Henley
February 22, 2009
Member since 02/21/2009 🔗
5 posts
Originally Posted By: itdoesntmatter
When 6 of them are sitting down at the top of angel drop at Whitetail blocking half of the slope, that is a problem. My daughgter boards, the other two ski. I know they have to stop and put on the binding, but some of them take the opportunity to just sit there and wait for friends. That is simply being inconsiderate of others on the slopes. FYI - my daughter can bend over and tighten the binding without sitting down. You don't have to park your butt in the middle of the slope to get going.


I have noticed snowboarders blocking Angel Drop at Whitetail, too. However, I also saw a group of 15-20 skiers having a snowball fight at the top of Ballhooter on my last trip to Snowshoe. Skiers and snowboarders can both be annoying, but since more teens snowboard, and teens have the reputation of being disrespectful, snowboarders usually take the blame. I think the real issue is knowing the code and knowing your ability.

People who are oblivious to others really don't become a problem for me unless they leave the greens. When you are learning (ability-wise and basic courtesy), the greens are for you.
Alpine Hokie
February 22, 2009
Member since 01/30/2009 🔗
14 posts
Originally Posted By: skier219
I can only conclude it's a regional/educational/skill thing, and we're dealing with the bottom of the barrel here. I was once told by a local snowboarding instructor that they have a much lower percentage of snowboarders taking snowboard lessons than skiers taking skiing lessons, so perhaps there is a correlation.



That is interesting. I think there probably is a correlation.
MarkMascolino
February 23, 2009
Member since 01/18/2007 🔗
32 posts
I think what it comes down to is that a lot of Mid-A teens come to snow sports without a strong grounding in etiquette from parents or family members which compounds the normal teen like problems that come with perr pressure and rebillion and so on. I find that although the "code" is posted, there is frankly lots of unwritten rules that people need to be made aware of. Just like when I take someone to place tennis around other serious players there is a lot of do's and don'ts that you will never find in a USTA rule book. Likewise for golf.

As for out west, I took see a lot less problems but I attribute that to a lot more of the participants growing up in the snow sports culture as well as the vast terrain spreads people out so much that you don't often see the idiocy. I tend to think the later is true because even at the most sparsely attended resort, the end of the day run to the lodge can be a minefield of disrespectful skiers and boarders of all ages.
fishnski
February 23, 2009
Member since 03/27/2005 🔗
3,530 posts
I love you too Fleetwood!...Fleetwoods...the s on the wood means I have two planks under my feet...that go fast!..Fleetwoods..or fleetskis...now you know the rest of the story!
SeaRide
February 23, 2009
Member since 03/11/2004 🔗
237 posts
I agree with Skier219 and Fleetwood. I used to ski for 15 plus years before converting to snowboard. I am fully aware of how skiers tend to get on or off the lift. My mind is thinking like a skier and a snowboard at the same time so I can't explain why. I would find me a out of the way spot on top of the hill for strapping on my board while that won't interfere anyone whatsoever.

I can see somewhat the difference between mid Atlantic and the West in how people do in snow sport.

If there's three skiers on the lift (quad type) with me, I would swivle
kwillg6
February 23, 2009
Member since 01/18/2005 🔗
2,031 posts
This kinda reminds one of MM and his "baiting" to get reactions whistle However, I see the merit in discussions of one vrs two plankers. Personally, I got over my distain of knuckle-draggers as many of my good friends are of the snow-board persuation. With that being said, what I really enjoy is watching a "good' boarder setting edges and carving down the hill. Not the zamboni type, but guys/gals who can use the equipment the way it's intended. Most of them are hard booters as well. Why not pick on the free-heelers in the crowd as well? They skid and slide too, but I don't critizise too much cuz I've tried that as well and can appreciate their skills. I guess the questions left unanswered are; one, why do boarders like to sit in the middle of trails? Two, why do they insist on doing trails above their skill level where all they can do is put the board sideways and SCRAPPPPPEE? That's enough said. Aside from that, it's the economics. Boarders pay the same as skiers in lift prices, more in rentals, and just have to have the latest cami-styles so they support the winter sport clothing industry. Like em or not, we need em.
Jimski
February 23, 2009
Member since 03/5/2008 🔗
44 posts
I have no boarders in my immediate family, and I admit that I know very little about the technical aspects of snowboarding. I wonder to what extent that one of the behaviors that many skiers find annoying -- group-blocking the slope right at the most direct line off the lift -- is driven by technical factors that are unique to snowboarding. So, to any of the snowboarders here, I have a few technical (non-judgmental) questions:

Why do you sit at the top of the slope right in the direct line from the lift? I have seen that you have to unhook one of your bindings, or something, to get on the lift. Then, when you get off the lift, what is it, from a technical perspective, that requires you to sit in a line right on the path from the lift?

Whatever it is that you unhooked, can't it be rehooked before disembarking from the lift? If not, is sitting down required to rehook? In any case, why not move off the direct path and/or not sit right on the edge of the slope to do it? Is it hard/impossible to do the equivalent of skating to a launching place on the slope once you're hooked up?

Or is the group blockage not due to technical reasons but rather more of a social thing -- i.e., waiting for the rest of your group to arrive?

In either case, why sit right in the most direct line between the lift and the slope? I too sometimes don't immediately start skiing down the hill right after disembarking from the lift -- e.g., sometimes I (or one of my kids) has to adjust my or their helmet, wipe my or their nose, etc. (I tell my kids not to take their gloves off on the lifts, so anything that requires the use of ungloved fingers has to wait til we're off the lift). But in those instances, we move out of that direct line from lift to slope edge so we don't block others. For us, that's no big deal: when we're ready, we simply skate or pole our way over to the edge of the slope. Is there some technical reason why snowboarders can't do the same?

Thanks very much.
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February 23, 2009
Member since 07/12/2004 🔗
2,217 posts
I use plate bindings and my backcoutry tele boots. Never seen anyone else do this but it is a nice system and I can buckle in the 2nd boot without sitting. All I need is a flat spot.

Many ski areas now provide benches near the top of the lift for riders to sit and buckle in. It makes too much sense. The ski industry however, typically has its head in the sand about many things and this is one of them so you don't see this too often.

Ski areas also have a very legitimate beef IMHO about riders who bring their boards inside. However they do not often put enough snowboard racks outside. Worse, when they do skiers put their skis in snowboard racks and fill up all the spaces, often leaving empty spots in nearby ski racks. It is very easy to tell the difference on first sight. So, you skiers who gripe about riders bringing their boards inside, please respect the snowboard racks and don't put your skis in them.
Murphy
February 23, 2009
Member since 09/13/2004 🔗
618 posts
Jim,

I can answer some of the technical question but I think the fundamental problems people are talking about aren't technical at all. Yes, you have to unhook one foot in order to get on the lift and I believe most resorts require you to remain unhooked until you're off the lift. I have Flow bindings and I typically ride off the lift and buckle in without ever stopping but that's not easy to do with traditional bindings. Unless you have pretty good balance and flexibility, you pretty much have to sit down. I'd venture to guess the whole marketing motivation behind Flow bindings was to avoid the strap in process at the top of the hill but they tend to be a little heavier and some people claim they don't perform as well so traditional bindings still dominate.

As far as finding a place to strap in, it helps if it's on a high point or right before the drop in so you're not stuck on flat land. If they happen to choose a place that's right in front of the lift, it's probably just a lack of consideration.

When it comes congregating in packs in inconvenient places, I'm pretty sure that's so they can witness their bros shreddin the gnarly pow pow. You gotta recognize yo! ... or something like that crazy .
kwillg6
February 24, 2009
Member since 01/18/2005 🔗
2,031 posts
Originally Posted By: Murphy
Jim,
You gotta recognize yo! ... or something like that crazy .

Yo, Dog! Grab 'dat big hit, dude!
Murphy
February 24, 2009
Member since 09/13/2004 🔗
618 posts
I see you speak the language fluently. I know just enough to ask where the bathroom is.
Clay
February 24, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
I have also heard him say "Please pick me up, I hurt all over" in boarder... grin
Jimski
February 24, 2009
Member since 03/5/2008 🔗
44 posts
Yo, Murphy -- thanks, this does help me understand part of the behavior. What you're saying, if I understand correctly, is that it is not easy for a snow boarder to move on flat snow after getting fully hooked up. Is that right? Of course, as you noted, some of the grouping together -- e.g., mid-way down the slope -- is not due to technical limitations but for socializing. Nothing wrong with socializing, accept when it impinges on the enjoyment and/or safety of others.

I only touched on one main point -- group sitting -- among many that others have identified. Many of these have to do with lack of basic courtesy rather than any technical limitation. Some result in inconvenience; some in heightened risk to others.

As a practical matter, what can be done about any of this? I have the feeling that speaking up to a group of sitting boarders at the top of the slope and asking them not to block access would be a waste of breath. Is it a question of talking to ski resort management? A letter to Burton and/or other snowboard manufacturers asking them to get the message out? Anybody have any ideas?
Clay
February 24, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
Originally Posted By: Jimski
it is not easy for a snow boarder to move on flat snow after getting fully hooked up. Is that right?


That's right. That's why you see them all hopping around like they're on pogo sticks. They're trying to get some momentum going.
Jimski
February 24, 2009
Member since 03/5/2008 🔗
44 posts
Yeh, makes sense --
No poles, so can't pole yourself forward.
Both feet strapped to a single board, so can't skate forward.

It kinda makes me feel sad for them...


guyforget
February 24, 2009
Member since 01/20/2009 🔗
24 posts
Originally Posted By: Jimski
I have the feeling that speaking up to a group of sitting boarders at the top of the slope and asking them not to block access would be a waste of breath. Is it a question of talking to ski resort management?


At 7Springs, particularly at the top of the high speed 6 person lift, younger boarders regularly sit down right in front of the "move to the sides, dont stop in front of the lift" sign. About 10 feet further, straight shot from the lift, and not in a flat section, right in front of the patrol buildings there are benches.

Whats really troublesome there is that 99% of the time the liftie working the top lift station doesnt even bother to come out and ask them to clear the way.

At Canaan this year we were getting ready to go down Gravity, but there was a group of boarders stopped at the top. We pulled up and were waiting for them to go down since they were there first and were preparing to descend. 2 of them had their snowsports instructor jackets on. All at once and in one big line across the slope, 4 or 5 of them stood up and proceeded to edge scrape down the entire drop. I dont know if its normal for instructors to teach young boarders to go down black slopes (there were minimal bumps on Gravity that day) on edge, but this annoyed the holy crap out of my lady and myself. It was a warmer day and the snow was real soft and fun. They scraped 4 wide troughs down the slope down to the ice layer, to us it was ruined for the day.

What I maybe understand least about this practice is that it seems more difficult for boarders to hold edge while carving on ice than it is for skiers. I see a lot more boarders get an edge on an ice patch and take a fall than skiers. So it seems to me that once someone scrapes it down to boiler plate, theyve only made it worse on themself and their riding partners.
Murphy
February 24, 2009
Member since 09/13/2004 🔗
618 posts
Originally Posted By: Jimski
As a practical matter, what can be done about any of this? I have the feeling that speaking up to a group of sitting boarders at the top of the slope and asking them not to block access would be a waste of breath. Is it a question of talking to ski resort management? A letter to Burton and/or other snowboard manufacturers asking them to get the message out? Anybody have any ideas?


Beats me. But I'll make sure I tell my kids not to do it when they get older. Hopefully that's two you won't have to worry about.

Also, if you pay attention to those groups of kids sitting in the middle of the hill you'll notice an increasing percentage of them are actually skiers. Twin tip skis are rapidly becoming popular with the demographic that you're associating boarders with. I doubt things will change when you put two planks on their feet.
Roger Z
February 24, 2009
Member since 01/16/2004 🔗
2,181 posts
Quote:
Beats me. But I'll make sure I tell my kids not to do it when they get older. Hopefully that's two you won't have to worry about.


No one will have anything to worry about Murph if you just TEACH THEM TO SKI!!!! grin
Murphy
February 24, 2009
Member since 09/13/2004 🔗
618 posts
Quote:
No one will have anything to worry about Murph if you just TEACH THEM TO SKI!!!! grin


Of course they'll start out skiing. It is best to start 'em with the easy stuff. wink
skier219
February 24, 2009
Member since 01/8/2005 🔗
1,318 posts
Came across two boarders sitting in the middle of the trail today at WTG, on the backside of a roller (where else but in the worst spot on the trail). I was able to avoid them, but they got a nice shot of the rooster tail from my twin tips. Wish I could have circled around to give them another dose. Idiots.
Fleetwood
March 6, 2009
Member since 12/6/2008 🔗
69 posts
Hey gang, I've been out of pocket for a bit, but thanks for keeping this alive for a while. Lots of good comments.

The bottom line is that some folks do things that others deem inappropriate, but I would bet that it is typically a result of being young or new to skiing/snowboarding and not the result of malicious intent or indifference. Most probably haven't thought about how their actions are impacting the experience for those around them. Let's keep that in perspective and take the opportunity to pass along some friendly advice.
kennedy
March 6, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
Just to clear up the getting off the lift, clipping in thing. First up getting off a lift on a board is tricky at first. One foot is in one is out the reason for this is that you need one foot out to be able to skate onto the lift and it's actually pretty difficult to clip in while you are on the lift. I use Flow bindings too and they are still hard to slip into on the lift.

Getting off is tough because you only have control with the front foot. The back foot is pushed up against the back binding for a little control but the board is slick from snow on your boot soles or on the topsheet. A stomp pad helps but it still takes practice.

Standing in to clip in takes practice, balance and flexibility. You have to able to bend over to touch your toes while keeping the board from sliding which is no mean feat. You have to be 90 degrees to the fall line to do this otherwise you slide away. This is why most sit down.

Some places have plenty of room at the top to click in some don't. The top of Angel drop is a bit of a choke point because there is only so much flat area to stand on to click in. It takes a fair bit of effort to go up a hill because the board wants to slide backwards unless you kick step and believe me that stuff is heavy. Sliding down the hill out of the way is not always an option because you are still riding one footed and so have terrible control for the most part which means you could twist your knees out pretty badly.

Some people can ride one footed extremely well. I've seen people fly while ripping carves one footed. Pretty outstanding.

In terms of learning curve especially for cutting fluid lines. It takes a long time to learn how to do that. Most people happily get around the mountain without having to do it so they don't learn it. I will say that the powerslide feeling you get going around bends is pretty fun, it's more fun to tuck in and rail a tight carve with one hand touching the snow but not everyone goes for that.

I'm with Fleetwood as an "older" boarder so I tend to have the same mentality of trying to bridge the perception gap. When I got out west every year my main riding buddy is a skier. We like hitting the same terrain and we push each others capabilities. It's a good mix. He snowboards too but mainly around here just to give himself a new challenge.
Denis - DCSki Supporter
March 6, 2009
Member since 07/12/2004 🔗
2,217 posts
Kennedy,

That was a great post and story. Thanks.
ks5z
March 6, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
I always find these conversations so one sided. Let's face it, there will be always be annoying and rude people on the hill, whether they're on skis or snowboards really makes no difference whatsoever.

I myself am a boarder, never skiied, and yet almost every confrontation I have ever had on a hill with a skiier has the skiier always resorting to the typical snowboarding bashing routine.

While I have always tried to never block the top of the hill and often find the same sitting snowboarders just as annoying, why is that so many skiiers just stop at the end of the lift run or decide that they have the right to cut across everyone else's paths when getting off the lift. If you want to go left from the far right seat on the lift, have the common decency to stall at the top and let everyone else get off the lift first in front of you.

Why is it that so many skiiers stop over hundreds of feet from the bottom of the lift and cut off the entire bottom of the runs in the same way? even if I was on skis I wouldn't want to have to pole all that way to get back to the lift.

Why is it that when a ski pole tip just happens to somehow end up 6' up in the air, while in a lift line, and almost pokes my eye out, (thankfully it only scratched my brand new googles), it's my fault for being to close behind you? What the hell is your ski pole doing 6' up in the air and 5' behind you in a lift line? I wasn't even close to the guy (could have easily been a person between us), yet I'm sure if that guy was behind me, his ski's would have been all over the back of my board.

Why is it that when I'm dropping a fairly steep patch of a double-blue run out west on a difficult (i.e. icy morning) and headed right down the middle of the run and have a clear path/line all the way down the center, I'm doing nice carved turns taking up only about 20-30' of a fairly wide run and am nice and consistent in my turns, in control, yet moving fairly decently, that when a skiier comes our of utter knowhere to my left, must have been basically going side ways across the entire run and ends up right in front of me with no time to stop and I plow right into her, it's of course because I'm an a-hole snowboarder. While technically this probably was my fault and I felt absolutely horrible because this was the first time I had ever run into somebody, if the situation was reversed I'm sure I would have been yelled at for taking up an entire run, being on a run I had no business being on, scraping all the snow off, etc., etc., etc., Please, if you have this attitude, go to deer valley next time, or stay off the nicer runs of park city that are too steep for you.

This is not meant to start a skiier vs. snowboarder war, but I do find it quite interesting how most skiiers always have a superior attitude about these things. All my friends are skiiers and I ride with some very good ones, and quite honestly, we all have very similar carve patterns when we ride together and I have never had any problems.

The biggest problem I see is the countless people who have no respect for others and insist on going down runs they have no business on, and this has nothing do with whether they choose to ride one plank or two.
Ullr
March 9, 2009
Member since 11/27/2004 🔗
531 posts
I don't really have anything to add, and could care less either way. I just wanted to get my post in on this epic thread..............
David
March 9, 2009
Member since 06/28/2004 🔗
2,444 posts
Originally Posted By: Ullr
I don't really have anything to add, and could care less either way. I just wanted to get my post in on this epic thread..............


Yeah, me too!
comprex
March 9, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
ks5z, speaking of one-sided, how about snowboarders making heel-side traverses without checking their absolutely enormous blind spot?
Steve
March 9, 2009
Member since 02/15/2006 🔗
160 posts
Originally Posted By: ks5z

that when a skiier comes our of utter knowhere to my left, must have been basically going side ways across the entire run and ends up right in front of me with no time to stop and I plow right into her, it's of course because I'm an a-hole snowboarder. While technically this probably was my fault

ks5Z,

No technically about it, that is ABSOLUTELY your fault. If you can't see that why bother to complain about anybody else's behavior.

I just returned from Winter Park. On my first day, my first run, I had not gone 100 yards when I was run over by a boarder. I mean this would have made the NFL highlights biggest hits reel. My shoulder is still not healed (oddly enough, not the one he hit, the one I landed on).

Could it have been a skier blasting down a beginner run? I suppose. But if you want to ski safely, stay away from children and snowboarders. I take it seriously that it is my responsibility to avoid downhill folks. And that means keeping some distance, not blasting by without leaving room to maneuver.

Steve
ks5z
March 10, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
this is my point exactly, you both failed to miss the point entirely and immediately jumped on the snowboard bashing routine...

I already said this was my fault, she did not come from my blind spot by the way (don't forget skiiers have the exact same blind spots, or do you have eyes in the back of you're heads I don't know about), I was not on a beginner hill, where I always take it slower because of situations like this, and this was just one of those unfortunate bizarre circumstances.

I still would bet that if I turned the story around, half of you would have posted about me being on a run I shouldn't be on, scraping the snow off, etc...., which was the whole point in the first place.
kwillg6
March 10, 2009
Member since 01/18/2005 🔗
2,031 posts
One thing I can say.... I've rarely witnessed a boarder straight shooting down a black slope. Saw a skier doing that on Sunday, on White Lightening, wearing only a pair of shorts, no shirt, on skis no longer than 150s. If that moron would have fallen, it would have attracted every turkey buzzard in the valley sick. When skiers do this it's a figure 11. I guess if a boarder does it it's a figure 1????
confused
kennedy
March 10, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
To me this whole argument sums up as this. If you're a prick you're a prick and it doesn't matter what you stand on to do it. I've been taken out by all sorts on the slopes, snowboarders, skiers, kids, my own stupidity etc. it's a fact of life here or anywhere. I could really not care less about what skiers think of boarders or vice versa as long as they keep it to themselves. When it spills over into some sort of overt snobbery or sense of entitlement then that irks me. Places like Alta and Deer Valley only really bother me because of the underlying snide attitude. I'd like to be able to go ride them but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It does kind of suck that the 2 times I've been in Utah my buddy felt like he had to pass on the opportunity to go to Alta because he'd have to go solo, everyone apart from him in our group snowboards.
BushwackerinPA
March 10, 2009
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
Originally Posted By: kennedy
To me this whole argument sums up as this. If you're a prick you're a prick and it doesn't matter what you stand on to do it. I've been taken out by all sorts on the slopes, snowboarders, skiers, kids, my own stupidity etc. it's a fact of life here or anywhere. I could really not care less about what skiers think of boarders or vice versa as long as they keep it to themselves. When it spills over into some sort of overt snobbery or sense of entitlement then that irks me. Places like Alta and Deer Valley only really bother me because of the underlying snide attitude. I'd like to be able to go ride them but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It does kind of suck that the 2 times I've been in Utah my buddy felt like he had to pass on the opportunity to go to Alta because he'd have to go solo, everyone apart from him in our group snowboards.


Alta and Deer valley both suck anyways the only reason why people like them is because the trails are easy and they feel like they can ski there.

Alta is the most hard core gaper mountain there is in USA.

simply put anyone I have meet who was an 'altaholic" couldnt ski all that well.

the only resort thats worth snowboarding that is skiers only is MRG. Its also IMO the least likely to ever lift the ban.
comprex
March 10, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: ks5z

(don't forget skiiers have the exact same blind spots,


Not exactly. A traversing skier can see uphill without turning his or her head. A heelside traversing snowboarder cannot see uphill without turning the head.

A straightlining skier can see to his left and right without turning his or her head. A straightlining snowboarder cannot see to heelside without turning the head.

Those are -not- the same blind spots.


Quote:

I still would bet that if I turned the story around, half of you would have posted about me being on a run I shouldn't be on, scraping the snow off, etc...., which was the whole point in the first place.


Nope, sorry. I don't give a flying flip how much snow you scrape. I likes the stuff underneath.
jimmy
March 10, 2009
Member since 03/5/2004 🔗
2,650 posts
So the shaped ski, admittedly the sidecut dealio was derived from a snowboard, has made carved turns so much easier, the pole plant has been replaced by the pole touch, much skiing does not even require a pole touch so i must ask why do skiers still need poles?????


To poke prone snowbaorders with laugh .

I LIKE Brighton.
GGNagy
March 10, 2009
Member since 01/5/2006 🔗
450 posts
Originally Posted By: kennedy
To me this whole argument sums up as this. If you're a prick you're a prick and it doesn't matter what you stand on to do it. I've been taken out by all sorts on the slopes, snowboarders, skiers, kids, my own stupidity etc. it's a fact of life here or anywhere. I could really not care less about what skiers think of boarders or vice versa as long as they keep it to themselves. When it spills over into some sort of overt snobbery or sense of entitlement then that irks me. Places like Alta and Deer Valley only really bother me because of the underlying snide attitude. I'd like to be able to go ride them but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It does kind of suck that the 2 times I've been in Utah my buddy felt like he had to pass on the opportunity to go to Alta because he'd have to go solo, everyone apart from him in our group snowboards.


Who is preventing you from riding at Alta or Deer Valley? The only person preventing you is yourself.
kennedy
March 10, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
Originally Posted By: GGNagy

Who is preventing you from riding at Alta or Deer Valley? The only person preventing you is yourself.


But why should I have to change what I choose to slide on to do it?

I skied a little before I learned to snowboard. It was kind of fun and I liked it (hated the boots) but after my first day on a board that sport owned me completely, absolute obsession. I'm sure it's the same for you with skiing and no one should ask or tell you to change that if you want to go to their mountain. They might have an easier time asking you to give up your firstborn. Like I said, I don't care if I never ride Alta or Deer Valley (MRG sounds fun though) it's just that I don't particularly like their attitude. I could poach it, as others have, but that's not really the point.

Bushwacker, your comments made me laugh. I think a lot of people would disagree with you but I liked them.
BushwackerinPA
March 10, 2009
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
everyone who disagrees with me either

A. sucks at skiing
B. is a gaper
C. hates snowboarding because they old and set in there ways.
D. all of the above

the other thing thats really funny is I have actually snowboarded into alta before(from hiking in from Baldy). the flat spot by collins makes it really unfun.

like honestly the terrain there sucks for boarding, and is merely ok for skiing.

There is more falline at the sultan of steeps down the road, the issues with snowbird though is scares most people and makes people realize that they do indeed suck at skiing after all. People want to feel good and not actually ski. Its the anti vail. even alta has some easy black runs that arent as steep as the blacks at Blue Knob.

Deer valley could be alot of fun on an alpine board if it wasnt so crowded.

F*ck Alta

its a shame we came of like a bunch of douches lol




comprex
March 10, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts


Quote:

I skied a little before I learned to snowboard. It was kind of fun and I liked it (hated the boots) but after my first day on a board that sport owned me completely, absolute obsession. I'm sure it's the same for you with skiing


So far so good.

Quote:

and no one should ask or tell you to change that if you want to go to their mountain.


Why not? I don't see anything wrong with it.

By your principle I should be able to light up in a movie theater just because I have a really, really, really strong nic fit.

Quote:

They might have an easier time asking you to give up your firstborn.


Ever seen some real nicotine fiends when deprived?
kennedy
March 10, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
[quote]
Why not? I don't see anything wrong with it. [quote]

Of course not, you ski therefore it never applies to you. That said if you want to learn to ride I'd be happy to teach you. Depending on your boot size I might have enough gear that you could borrow. I've had people tell me I'm a good instructor. I'll strap on skis again and you can laugh your @ss off at me, I feel like I'd resemble something akin to a donkey on rollerskates. That might be really fun.


[quote]By your principle I should be able to light up in a movie theater just because I have a really, really, really strong nic fit.[quote]

Skiing and snowboarding are different ways of achieving the same thing. The things I love about snowboarding are probably the same things you love about skiing. Scratch the surface and get down to the core of things and we're probably not all that different. With that in mind why is it such a problem for some places?

I kind of get Deer Valley in a weird way. In my mind they are aiming for that exclusive niche and it's not just a skier vs. snowboarding thing. I get that stuck up uber expensive country club vibe from them. You might want a few Rodney Dangerfield type characters in there to liven it up.

If I'm to follow your rationale then snowboarding is no different than smoking i.e. an unpleasant, unhealthy habit generally considered unacceptable in public and linked to cancer and emphysema. That's just mean.;-)
comprex
March 10, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: kennedy

If I'm to follow your rationale then snowboarding is no different than smoking i.e. an unpleasant, unhealthy habit generally considered unacceptable in public and linked to cancer and emphysema. That's just mean.;-)


Whoa! Missed the rationale turn at a high rate of speed and went into the orange safety netting. wink




Passing rules about you snowboarding without having to provide specific negative consequence justification to you

is similar to

Passing rules about you smoking without having to provide specific negative consequence justification to you

is similar to

Passing rules about you drinking in public without having to provide specific negative consequence justification to you

is similar to

Passing rules about you using motorized ATVs on cycling or hiking trails without having to provide specific negative consequence justification to you.

Point being that any rule, once justified to the society that establishes it (which may be a society of one), need not be justified to someone outside that society unless it violates some greater rule applying to both.

In the above case, we can take society=management. Unless you can show that banning snowboarding at a particular resort is illegal, they don't need to justify a ban to you, so arguing justification is pointless.







fishnski
March 10, 2009
Member since 03/27/2005 🔗
3,530 posts
I just can't wait till I see 8 to 10 Boarders out of 10 doing it right instead of the 8 out of 10 doing it wrong because i'm tired of waiting for the rest to get better...How long will it take?....terrain parks & Halfpipes seem to be the logical place for them...Skiers rock the slopes..Boarders...are still rookies!


Even the ones doing it right seem ....uncomfortable...ask your self before you show me some hate...are you really any good?...or do you think you are....
ks5z
March 10, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
Originally Posted By: comprex


Not exactly. A traversing skier can see uphill without turning his or her head. A heelside traversing snowboarder cannot see uphill without turning the head.

A straightlining skier can see to his left and right without turning his or her head. A straightlining snowboarder cannot see to heelside without turning the head.

Those are -not- the same blind spots.


They are quite similar, one can't see what's behind them, nor can they see what's 90 degrees to them without turning their head. If you apply that logic rationally:

A traversing skiier can only see straight across the slope, they can't see uphill with turning their head, or downhill for that matter as well. A straightlining skier can only see straight down the fallline, period...

Everyone must bend their heads to really get a full view of what's around them on the mountain, whether they choose to or not, is simply a matter of how conscious they are and aware of their surroundings.

If it even matters, if you're in my blind spot to my heel/backside, than I'm already past you and further down the hill picking the nice next spot to lay down a nice heel to toe carved edge turn, or you're about to slam into the back of me straightlining down the mountain since you never learned how to carve turns...

I can tell that debating this is absolutely pointless, since I keep forgetting that all skiiers were born out of the womb experts in all things snow related. Thankfully, I'll never have to worry about busting my knee for the rest of my life... Now if we can just get all you arrogant republican skiiers to stop driving suv's and admit global warming exists...
kennedy
March 11, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
Originally Posted By: ks5z

I can tell that debating this is absolutely pointless, since I keep forgetting that all skiiers were born out of the womb experts in all things snow related. Thankfully, I'll never have to worry about busting my knee for the rest of my life... Now if we can just get all you arrogant republican skiiers to stop driving suv's and admit global warming exists...


Dammit now we've gone from the snowboarder discussion, which to be honest has hit flame war status yet which is nice, to the GW debate. This thread will be yanked soon I can feel it.

Before it gets yanked however, Comprex, you kind of latched onto something I intended as a joke and ran with it, the emoticon on the end didn't translate I guess. But you bring up a valid point, Alta et al don't have to provide justification but I still find it kind of a-holish. There are 3 places left in the US that are skier only. I'd like them to be open to snowboarders but to be honest I don't lose sleep over it. The only thing I have a problem with is a snobbish attitude towards boarders. I'll also say that I find anti skier sentiments among boarders tends to be related to immaturity or inexperience.

You didn't answer my other question though. How about it, want to learn how to ride? It may have to wait until next season though since I'm heading off to Ireland this weekend. I'm hoping there is something left to ride on when I get back but I'm not getting my hopes up.

Fishnski (before you light up our new poster) am I good? I guess so. I'm not park rat good, I don't hit rails and off hits I'm pretty much just a straight air kind of guy. I love ripping cruisers and floating through pow. Lets just say I do better than most and that goes for boarders and skiers.
David
March 11, 2009
Member since 06/28/2004 🔗
2,444 posts
Hey Kennedy,

You ever ride an Alpine board?? We have several regulars that are on them at Tline and every time I see one it makes me mad!! Those guys lay themselves nearly parallel to the hill. It makes me jealous. I've seen several people reach down and touch the snow when they are in the middle of a big turn, but these guys are practically hugging the snow when they carve to the frontside and they are almost laid down when the carve to the backside. And the TRENCH that they leave behind.... That looks like fun!!

kennedy
March 11, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
I have never ridden an alpine board but yeah those guys are awesome. I'd like to try it but I don't know anywhere that rents the gear and it's a huge investment to buy into it. I think it would take me quite a while to get used to the stance angles. The past few seasons I've been experimenting with ducking my stance out a little bit. Going to a carving board is the complete opposite of that.
kwillg6
March 11, 2009
Member since 01/18/2005 🔗
2,031 posts
Originally Posted By: ks5z

I keep forgetting that all skiiers were born out of the womb experts in all things snow related..... Now if we can just get all you arrogant republican skiiers to stop driving suv's and admit global warming exists...


It's about time that some one acknowledges this fact! whistle That's why we have two boards instead on just one. wink My only real concern with your arguement is the inclusion of the "GW" issue and calling me a dirty name, although I guess my Suburau Outback is considered a SUV for fuel consumption regulations. frown
jimmy
March 11, 2009
Member since 03/5/2004 🔗
2,650 posts
now calm down kwill that's why God gave poles to us but not them...... i do find being called an arrogant republican skier offensive. i'll admit I much prefer aloof to arrogant <sigh> .
kennedy
March 11, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
That's true Jimmy, you have always been the shrinking violet of the message boards.
comprex
March 11, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: kennedy


Before it gets yanked however, Comprex, you kind of latched onto something I intended as a joke and ran with it, the emoticon on the end didn't translate I guess.

My fault.

Quote:


You didn't answer my other question though. How about it, want to learn how to ride? It may have to wait until next season though since I'm heading off to Ireland this weekend. I'm hoping there is something left to ride on when I get back but I'm not getting my hopes up.


Sure.

Next season it is. Bring great heaps of patience, I'm slow.
Murphy
March 11, 2009
Member since 09/13/2004 🔗
618 posts
Sounds like you guys are on to something. We should get together and put the boarders on skis and skiers on boards. I'd love to learn to ski.
kennedy
March 11, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
Originally Posted By: Murphy
Sounds like you guys are on to something. We should get together and put the boarders on skis and skiers on boards. I'd love to learn to ski.



I think it would be fun as all get out. I'd actually like to check out telemark. I don't know if you need to be able to ski first or if it even matters. My friend in CO is an awesome snowboarder, I mean seriously excellent. She skied when she was younger and now she is learning to tele too. I kind of envy that lifestyle. I often think that the thing that prevents us from crossing styles is maybe more time than anything else.

Our season is so short and the opportunities to go ride are becoming so much more limited that I just want to enjoy my time doing what I'm good at. She has an amazing advantage in that she lives about 15 minutes from Keystone and works at the resort. If she wants to go to work early and get a few turns in before her shift she can. How much better would you be if you could grab lunchtime turns every day if you wanted to? Her family also have snowmobiles and a bunch of other toys so they really live that outdoor lifestyle I can only dream about.

I'm going to mark my calendar for the start of next season to remind me to maybe set something up where we trade off for a morning and ride a few miles in the other persons boots then maybe in the afternoon get back on our own gear. I think it would give a great perspective of each others sports.
The Colonel - DCSki Supporter
March 11, 2009
Member since 03/5/2004 🔗
3,107 posts
kennedy,
How about monoskiing. I think they rent them at Alta. Two feet in ski boots on a single large ski, bindings mounted parallel.
When my daughter left Utah she was awesome at skiing, snowboarding and monoskiing.
The Colonel smile
Roger Z
March 11, 2009
Member since 01/16/2004 🔗
2,181 posts
In addition to tripping together with a snowboarder to a legendary western ski hill this weekend, I helped pull a snowboarder across a flat traverse as well. There was just this one jerk snowboarder that completely cut me off on the onloading ramp, now who could that have been???.... wink
SCWVA
March 11, 2009
Member since 07/13/2004 🔗
1,051 posts
Originally Posted By: ks5z
..........

I can tell that debating this is absolutely pointless, since I keep forgetting that all skiiers were born out of the womb experts in all things snow related. Thankfully, I'll never have to worry about busting my knee for the rest of my life... Now if we can just get all you arrogant republican skiiers to stop driving suv's and admit global warming exists...


Mr ks5z,

Please stop painting with such a broad brush. Your comments be fighting words to both my Liberal skier friends as well as my Conservative boarding friends.
ks5z
March 11, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
Originally Posted By: SCWVA


Mr ks5z,

Please stop painting with such a broad brush. Your comments be fighting words to both my Liberal skier friends as well as my Conservative boarding friends.



Exactly!!! And that's why all gross over generalizations made about snowboarders are completely unwarranted as well...

it's just sad that I had to resort to politics as reference for somebody to pick up on that point...:)
ks5z
March 11, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
Originally Posted By: kennedy

But you bring up a valid point, Alta et al don't have to provide justification but I still find it kind of a-holish. There are 3 places left in the US that are skier only. I'd like them to be open to snowboarders but to be honest I don't lose sleep over it.


I'm not sure whether alta and the rest of the skier only resorts are operated on us public park land, but I know that Taos is/was and I believe alta and deer valley are as well, so the banning of somebody from what is for all intensive purposes a public park, and thus all citizens should have equal rights to, fairly unconstitutional. Maybe we need an equal snow opportunity act...:)
comprex
March 11, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts

Quote:

nor can they see what's 90 degrees to them without turning their head.


Actually the human visual field norm is 100 degrees out from the nose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_field

So, without horribly Coke Canned glasses or goggles, yes they can see uphill without turning their head, at least out of their peripheral vision.

Quote:

If it even matters, if you're in my blind spot to my heel/backside, than I'm already past you and further down the hill picking the nice next spot to lay down a nice heel to toe carved edge turn, or you're about to slam into the back of me straightlining down the mountain since you never learned how to carve turns...


You're right, it doesn't matter, because you conveniently left out toe to heel transitions from a toeside traverse. Which is exactly when someone in your heelside blind spot actually has right of way.

BTW
Quote:
or you're about to slam into the back of me straightlining down the mountain since you never learned how to carve turns...
might work for a high horse here in the East.

I very much doubt it will if you do a low traverse entry into someone's pow line out West.
ks5z
March 12, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
Originally Posted By: comprex

Actually the human visual field norm is 100 degrees out from the nose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_field

So, without horribly Coke Canned glasses or goggles, yes they can see uphill without turning their head, at least out of their peripheral vision.


thanks for providing the link that proves my point. Unfortunately, you must have failed geometry class. In layman terms it basically says, each eye can see 60 degrees in towards the nose from straight, and then 100 degrees out from that 60 degrees in. So that leaves you with 40 degrees of outward vision from each eye. This hardly counts as being able to see uphill in you're previous scenarios. Focus on your monitor in front of you, and if you can see anything peripherally 90 degrees to your right or left than you must have the biggest fish eyes of any human being out there.
ks5z
March 12, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
Originally Posted By: comprex


You're right, it doesn't matter, because you conveniently left out toe to heel transitions from a toeside traverse. Which is exactly when someone in your heelside blind spot actually has right of way.


Traverse? If somebody is traversing (doesn't matter if they're on one plank or two) than they are barely moving downhill. How is this person going to run over anybody? I don't even understand you're east/west comment. I have never insulted you're skiing ability, so don't insult mine. I've spent plenty of time on both sides of this country. Give it a rest already....
kennedy
March 12, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
Getting into the exact geometric vision range of the human eye is getting kind of out of control. If I'm toeside traversing( I'm right footed on the board which means I would be sliding the the left on toeside) I actually have an excellent view of what's going on uphill from me and a quick glance to my left tells me if there is anyone coming into, or all ready in, the space where I will be once I make my heel turn. Once I initiate the turn I do have a pretty good view of what is down and to the right of me. Traversing heelside, sliding right, I have a good view of what is below and still a good view of what is at least parallel and even a fair bit up hill from me. If you are coming from above me then you should be giving me right of way anyway.

This sounds like a lot of scanning around, and it is, but if you are at the level of boarding where you have to make those kinds of traverses, and you are on a busy slope, then you should be scanning your surroundings.

As you get better that heel toe action gets to be less of a traverse and closer to a carve, essentially your line doesn't look much different to that of a skier. Because that line is faster your focus in what is ahead of you becomes more important because you are in more of an overtaking mode. If someone is coming from upslope and is travelling faster than you then they are obligated to give right of way, which we all acknowledge is correct, and should read your pattern well enough to time an overtake or go wide around you. On a busy I trail I find it's good practice to call out your intention, i.e. "on your left/right" so the person downslope knows where you are.

What we can't control are unexpected changes in line from the person downhill. If they suddenly change their mind and cut right in front of you and stop, it's still your fault even though you tried to do everything right. Even if you call your line there is no guarantee the person below you will listen or not freak out and do anything erratic.

When I actually think of it I have gone through this entire season without a single collision with another slider. Happy thought. smile
Murphy
March 12, 2009
Member since 09/13/2004 🔗
618 posts
Originally Posted By: Roger Z
In addition to tripping together with a snowboarder to a legendary western ski hill this weekend, I helped pull a snowboarder across a flat traverse as well. There was just this one jerk snowboarder that completely cut me off on the onloading ramp, now who could that have been???.... wink


I said I was sorry. Geesh, let it go. smirk
RodSmith
March 12, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
ks5z, your replies to SCWVA and comprex were well played. Comprex is a smart guy who is very knowledgeable about science, but I believe you are right. 100 from the nose sounds much more reasonable than the idea that skiers can see behind them. Eventually I suppose if the two species differentiate, snowboarders will retain the forward vision of the hunter while preyed upon skiers' eyes will move to the side of their heads. Fox people and rabbit people, but global warming and interbreeding will probably keep any such evolutionary split from happening.

How do I know you ride left foot forward? Because you said a skier came out of nowhere from the left. Your blindspot was a factor.

Another thing you should understand is that the Code of Responsibility has been changed from saying yield to downhill skier/rider to yield to person in front of you. Skiers and snowboarders who enjoy carving arcs across the hill are responsible for keeping an eye out for those who prefer riding more in the fall line. So technically, you may not have been at fault. Most likely there was shared responsibility.
Tucker
March 12, 2009
Member since 03/14/2005 🔗
893 posts
..."interbreeding" ...I believe this evolutionary step took place already...the result was ridiculous and known as the monoboard...however, natural selection took it's course...and the monoboard failed to take root in the industry...now the only time you see a monoboard is in old warren miller movies, just like ski ballet...thank God for evolution!
comprex
March 12, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: ks5z
Originally Posted By: comprex

Actually the human visual field norm is 100 degrees out from the nose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_field

So, without horribly Coke Canned glasses or goggles, yes they can see uphill without turning their head, at least out of their peripheral vision.


thanks for providing the link that proves my point. Unfortunately, you must have failed geometry class.



Apparently you failed basic reading comprehension.

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
to 100 degrees temporally (away from the nose, or outwards)
means 100 degrees in the direction away from the nose.

Do you seriously need to look 60 degrees in from straight ahead to see your nose? How do you breathe through something that tiny?

The very next sentence
Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
In the United Kingdom, the minimum field requirement for driving is 60 degrees either side of the vertical meridian,
should have clued you in because by your measure:

Quote:
So that leaves you with 40 degrees of outward vision from each eye.


not a single person there would be licenced to drive.



Quote:

This hardly counts as being able to see uphill in you're previous scenarios.


200 degrees total when the head is pointed downhill certainly counts as being able to see everyone who has right of way over you.

Originally Posted By: kennedy
If I'm toeside traversing( I'm right footed on the board which means I would be sliding the the left on toeside) I actually have an excellent view of what's going on uphill from me and a quick glance to my left tells me if there is anyone coming into, or all ready in, the space where I will be once I make my heel turn.


It's that 'quick glance to the left' part that I'm talking about.

If you are toeside across the fall line, that glance left means you turn your head towards that shoulder, yes? So your head is pointed left (across the fall line).


By ks5z's argument you couldn't see straight downhill by looking over your left shoulder at all. Now, I don't really believe that, do you? It would make snowboarding far less safe than I have been giving it credit for.

By my argument above you can then see downhill and 10 degrees past that. From 10 degrees past straight downhill to directly behind your board is a blind spot, yes?

There could be someone in it, yes?





Now I don't know enough about snowboarding to know whether snowboarders, when traversing on edge, can rotate their shoulders and upper torsos enough to see within that blind spot without disengaging the edge. Skiers certainly can, and do so on a regular basis. It's called 'counter'.



scootertig
March 12, 2009
Member since 02/19/2006 🔗
365 posts
Originally Posted By: Tucker
..."interbreeding" ...I believe this evolutionary step took place already...the result was ridiculous and known as the monoboard...however, natural selection took it's course...and the monoboard failed to take root in the industry...now the only time you see a monoboard is in old warren miller movies, just like ski ballet...thank God for evolution!


I saw two different people at Alta on monoboards on the same day, and they weren't even skiing together... I think that was my first sighting ever.


aaron
RodSmith
March 12, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
Ouch, Tucker! Did you have to go there? You will never ride my nordic monoski unless you can demonstrate a well executed cross over tip drag 360 or worm turn or tip roll and I will be the judge as to whether you have completed the task; fluid, clean and complete. Sorry man, you stepped over the line, I have no choice.
Tucker
March 12, 2009
Member since 03/14/2005 🔗
893 posts
If the snowboard equivalent of the skiing ballet tip roll is the nose roll or a manual or a buttering of the muffin then I will do it...I will even switch nollie 360 into a manual but you won't catch me dead in a pair of those stretch pants...It is written in my will that even when I am dead no one is to put skiers stretch pants on me...

In my defense, in about...oh..2002 or so on Thunderdraft at T-line I was a judge for a bump contest where a skier performed not one but two worm turns during his bump run. I awarded the 10 for style as well as difficulty, even though it looked funny...not funny ha ha...

I have tried the nordic monoski. Heelside piece of cake. Toeside....I destroyed myself...

In the 90's there was a bartender at Canaan Valley named Blondie who used to ride/ski a monoski...I didn't get it then and don't get it now???
MichaelME
March 12, 2009
Member since 12/10/2008 🔗
32 posts
Originally Posted By: RodSmith
You will never ride my nordic monoski.

If it's Nordic, then it's a TELEboard

Originally Posted By: RodSmith
I will be the judge as to whether you have completed the task; FREE,fluid, and SOULFUL. Sorry man, you stepped over the line, I have no choice.

Fixed
comprex
March 12, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: MichaelME
Originally Posted By: RodSmith
You will never ride my nordic monoski.

it's a TELEboard


Uh-oh. Now you've done it. Now all the tree rats will want one.

LHC, don't click on the video! Don't do it! Nooo!
ks5z
March 12, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
comprex:

you're eyes overlap greatly in vision, this is one of the fundamental aspects of good depth perception and why most people who only have one visually impaired eye, often do not wear glasses since the overlap is covered by their good eye. Cover one of your eyes while focusing straight ahead, and you'll notice that you mainly lose peripheral vision to the side that is covered, not that entire side of you're vision.

I never applied this back to any blindspot analysis as you have suggested, because that involves many additional aspects like shoulder and head position, as you acknowledged, but it also includes where you are currently looking as well. I would agree with you're blind spot analysis by taking into account shoulder, head turns, and also looking in that direction, but not on the single idea that the human eyes can see 200 degrees wide at any one instance in time.

It is actually quite common to rotate you're shoulders in the direction you're turning, as this is part of the fundamental process of shifting your weight in order to initiate an edge change. It's often said that the board will go in the direction of your shoulders.

I took issue with your initial comments on blind spots because you assumed a skier turned his head and a boarder did not, so they were quite unfair and biased (which gets back to the whole reason this post got started in the first place). Nice diagram by the way...

Kennedy has summed up the visual spectrum of a typical boarder in each of the turn stages perfectly, so I'll leave it at that.
fishnski
March 12, 2009
Member since 03/27/2005 🔗
3,530 posts
Originally Posted By: comprex
Originally Posted By: ks5z
Originally Posted By: comprex

Actually the human visual field norm is 100 degrees out from the nose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_field

So, without horribly Coke Canned glasses or goggles, yes they can see uphill without turning their head, at least out of their peripheral vision.


thanks for providing the link that proves my point. Unfortunately, you must have failed geometry class.



Apparently you failed basic reading comprehension.

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
to 100 degrees temporally (away from the nose, or outwards)
means 100 degrees in the direction away from the nose.

Do you seriously need to look 60 degrees in from straight ahead to see your nose? How do you breathe through something that tiny?

The very next sentence
Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
In the United Kingdom, the minimum field requirement for driving is 60 degrees either side of the vertical meridian,
should have clued you in because by your measure:

[quote] So that leaves you with 40 degrees of outward vision from each eye.


not a single person there would be licenced to drive.


ks5z's







That was the setup when a Boarder up at beech mtn,NC cut back hard to his left when I was in his blind spot & slammed into me breaking one of my ribs...He aplogized..so Snowboarders are'nt all that bad...Unless I take a couple of Shots of Tequilla..then the memory comes back & they all suck!...
I'm mellow now but I did run into Pods of Boarders up at TL a couple of weeks ago & when I asked them while they were all sprawled out on the slopes..some looked like they were sleeping..they said that they were waiting on some friends...Young Boarders suck...Mature ones can be pretty Kool...how bout that?
ks5z
March 12, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
Originally Posted By: RodSmith

How do I know you ride left foot forward? Because you said a skier came out of nowhere from the left. Your blindspot was a factor.

Another thing you should understand is that the Code of Responsibility has been changed from saying yield to downhill skier/rider to yield to person in front of you. Skiers and snowboarders who enjoy carving arcs across the hill are responsible for keeping an eye out for those who prefer riding more in the fall line. So technically, you may not have been at fault. Most likely there was shared responsibility.


Yes, I ride normal, not goofy, although I was heelside (had full view downhill, and right after I turned back toeside I had about 2 seconds to slam on the brakes, so my blindspot was really not a factor here. Now if I had been toeside, and just turned heelside, you could start to argue that.

My best guess is that she must have been stopped way over to the side and then failed to yield, look uphill when restarting. I had been dropping in the same line, pattern, carve, for quite a while since there was nobody below me on the hill.

I walked away from this thinking we were probably both at fault as well (and/or [censored] just happens sometimes), and after apologizing profusely for 5 minutes and suggesting she did no wrong, it was in my opinion quite snobbish and rude for her to just play the snowboard card flat out on me. Her husband, who must have been way uphill at the time, don't know if he saw the incident or not, even alluded to me that she get's freaked out easily after she had continued down the hill. I think if I had been on skis I would have wiped her out as well and the only difference is that she would have treated me with the same basic respect I gave her.
GRK
March 13, 2009
Member since 12/19/2007 🔗
404 posts
What the hell...before starting down or merging onto a trail I look for the following:

1) Boarders
2) Skiers
3) Anybody on those blade things
4) Small Children
5) Big Children
6) Bears
7) Aliens

If I see any of those, I wait until there is a clear space then I go. Probably because I have only been skiing 2.5 years I get nervous when other people get too close. Sometimes I will pull off and let a flock of people go by as well. Maybe not the most fun thing in the world, but I get plenty of clear runs to keep me happy.
kennedy
March 13, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
Nice diagram Comprex, that makes it easier to explain. First up your diagram would make me a left footed boarder sliding toe edge to skiers right. I turn my head all the way to right which allows me to scan everything up slope of me and also what is to skiers left of me. Turning my shoulders slightly while looking in either direction allows me to see a little more.

The thing of course is that on the slope everything is very dynamic so based on where that skier is on the plan, assuming they were moving at even a moderate pace, by the time I had initiated a heelside turn they would likely be past me. Of course this all depends on so many variables how fast am I going, how fast is the skier going, their trajectory, my turning radius and speed of turn. The bigger risk is a skier or rider that is north east of the boarder's position in the diagram, I would guess (only guess mind you) that there would be a greater likelihood of the boarder getting hit.

I guess my question is what would the blind spot be if you replaced the boarder in the diagram with a skier. What is the blind spot? Can you see over the tail of your skis by countering? I ask in all earnestness because I don't know. It actually would be nice to know so I can avoided spooking anyone y being hidden in their blind spot.
comprex
March 13, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
The boarder in the diagram, edging toeside, cannot turn his neck more downhill because he's not Linda Blair. The boarder in the diagram might then rotate shoulders counterclockwise, but it seems that doing that too much would actually start the turn.


A snowboarder in the above diagram who turns the head clockwise so the nose points back along the board's line of travel might, in theory cover all blind spots.

Is this taught? It's certainly counterintuitive. Should it be taught?

Originally Posted By: kennedy

I guess my question is what would the blind spot be if you replaced the boarder in the diagram with a skier. What is the blind spot?


Uphill. This is why the right of way rules were established as they were.


Quote:
Can you see over the tail of your skis by countering?


Certainly.

In the diagram above, no matter to which side the skier is edged across the hill, the skier can turn their head and shoulders to point the nose directly downhill *while keeping the skis on the same edge*.

Therefore, no matter which side the skier is edged across the hill, they can or should be able to see every other person who has right of way.

Can a skier counter to look uphill?

The answer in most cases is NO.

Doing so would create banking and take weight off the downhill edge, making for an uncontrolled slide.

A truly accomplished skier, one comfortable with using the outside edge of the inside ski, can do it. In fact they have to whenever they turn back uphill in a carve.




kennedy
March 13, 2009
Member since 12/8/2001 🔗
792 posts
Is it taught? I'm not sure but then there are a lot of things not taught that I think should be. One of the first things I teach to any beginner is falling leaf, i.e. using one edge to traverse back and forth across the hill so they can descend difficult terrain if they get themselves in a touch spot. It's a much more productive and fun method than simply side slipping as it teaches edge control and gets them comfortable in tricky situations. I also make them physically point where they want to go thereby forcing them to turn their heads and shoulders into the turn (I think it also helps tip off others as to what they are up to). I don't think either of those things are taught at the local hills. One instructor at Whitetail told me they weren't supposed to teach them to point which kind of baffled me. As regards scanning about, to me at always seems such an obvious thing but it's always something I point out to beginners. I think as with beginner skiers there is that tendency to focus on the ground 2 feet in front of them instead of keeping the head up and aware of their surroundings. I think the pointing helps with that too as it focuses the attention on where they want to eventually end up.

I'd welcome feedback from anyone who teaches snowboarding as to why these aren't taught if they in fact are not. Are they counter productive, is there some reason why they shouldn't be that I'm not seeing?

I brought a friend from work to Whitetail for his first time about a month ago. I got him started on skating around and the basic principles of turning and then cut him loose for his first class. Once he was done I got back together with him and we got comfortable on the bunny slopes. After about 2 hours he had developed enough control that I felt he could handle Snow park. He was a little intimidated at first but we broke it down into small bite size pieces and we started falling leaf all the way down. By the time we got down he was having a blast and was really feeling comfortable making his way about. He could traverse and stop at will. He couldn't link turns at first but he was having a great time, and the turns will come but in the meantime he is mobile and enjoying himself without being too much of a horrible risk.
RodSmith
March 13, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
Originally Posted By: ks5z
Originally Posted By: RodSmith

How do I know you ride left foot forward? Because you said a skier came out of nowhere from the left. Your blindspot was a factor.

Another thing you should understand is that the Code of Responsibility has been changed from saying yield to downhill skier/rider to yield to person in front of you. Skiers and snowboarders who enjoy carving arcs across the hill are responsible for keeping an eye out for those who prefer riding more in the fall line. So technically, you may not have been at fault. Most likely there was shared responsibility.


Yes, I ride normal, not goofy, although I was heelside (had full view downhill, and right after I turned back toeside I had about 2 seconds to slam on the brakes, so my blindspot was really not a factor here. Now if I had been toeside, and just turned heelside, you could start to argue that.

My best guess is that she must have been stopped way over to the side and then failed to yield, look uphill when restarting. I had been dropping in the same line, pattern, carve, for quite a while since there was nobody below me on the hill.

I walked away from this thinking we were probably both at fault as well (and/or [censored] just happens sometimes), and after apologizing profusely for 5 minutes and suggesting she did no wrong, it was in my opinion quite snobbish and rude for her to just play the snowboard card flat out on me. Her husband, who must have been way uphill at the time, don't know if he saw the incident or not, even alluded to me that she get's freaked out easily after she had continued down the hill. I think if I had been on skis I would have wiped her out as well and the only difference is that she would have treated me with the same basic respect I gave her.


Come on, she is stopped over on the other side of the trail and starts to traverse and somehow gets up enough speed to come out of nowhere and surprise you who are riding the falline and have just completed a heelside turn giving you a full view of the entire slope!? I was trying to be on your side, but I now agree with your initial assessment that you were entirely at fault.
ks5z
March 13, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
kennedy, from what I've heard from instructors on other forums, they have focused much less on the falling leaf technique over the years, as too many people who would simply take one class, only learn how to do this, and then would never move on to linking turns. These would be the scrapers all those skiiers complain about...:)

While it is a very good technique at getting to finer edge control/balance and sometimes necessary to get out of trouble (I do find myself doing it in mogul fields sometimes to catch my bearings), I do think all beginners should be pushed to start trying j-turns and garland turns as soon as possible versus the falling leaf, as this sets up the basic for linking you're turns.

I never really learned the falling leaf, but I guess coming from a skateboarding background, it just seemed really unnatural to me. Although, if I had learned the falling leaf well at the beginning, I might be in a better position with learning to ride switch, as I just am not used to sliding backwards with any heavy speed at all.
RodSmith
March 13, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
Snowboarders have the advantage of being able to look directly uphill without twisting themselves into an undesirable position after completing every toe edge turn. Given that the most danger on piste is getting taken out by an out of control skier coming straight down the hill, this is an invaluable ability that should not go unused. Counter, or looking downhill at the completion of a toe edge turn is bad form and a wasted chance to see what is happening behind you. We always know what is downhill from us, seeing behind and to the heelside requires making an effort to look and notice when you have a chance and understanding what can change between glances. Skier never looks behind and never knows what happened when they get taken out.
ks5z
March 13, 2009
Member since 03/6/2009 🔗
11 posts
Originally Posted By: RodSmith
Come on, she is stopped over on the other side of the trail and starts to traverse and somehow gets up enough speed to come out of nowhere and surprise you who are riding the falline and have just completed a heelside turn giving you a full view of the entire slope!? I was trying to be on your side, but I now agree with your initial assessment that you were entirely at fault.


I have no clue what she was doing, remember I'm only guessing she was stopped and started, remember I only saw her 2 seconds before the whole event. But she very likely could have picked up speed fast, even while traversing, as this was a very steep section of a double-blue on a nice icy groomed morning... I was out west, so it was a real hill. Now I would agree with you if this was a shallower east coast hill, although I highly doubt this accident would have happened on an easier slope and conditions.

What was clear, is she really shouldn't have been on this hill. Isn't this against some of the responsibility codes as well? It's also not like she got trapped into going down this run, as there are only 3 other easier ways at the top of this drop.

Either way, we're beating a dead horse... and the only thing I really care about is mutual respect between the different snow species.
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