I had an incident this past week where a brand new snowplower smashed into me after yelling here "I CANT STOOOOP" mantra. Not even "I'm sorry", or "Are you OK" or anything. She simply got into her skis and gave me a dirty look as if my presence was the subject of her uncomfortable nature.

At our condo board meeting this weekend, one of the board members, a member of the courtesy patrol, had just witnessed a boarder smashing into a child with so much force that it rendered him unconscious. He gave chase and caught the offender at the Ballhooter line. Upon being challenged, the guy simply said "S*^T HAPPENS" and said it was the kid's fault for being in his "line"... Obviously the patroller summoned the ski patrol and asked this guy to repeat the statement, which he heartedly repeated as if it was the most normal thing in the world to knock people down for pleasure. Obviously they took his lift ticket away and he had to pay for the lift up as well as have to sit down a day.

I'm not interested in picking an argument but, I've seen the most downward spiral in ski etiquette in the 40 years I've been skiing.

Perhaps it is the fault of the resort for not publicizing the Ski Code. Perhaps it is our national fiber coming apart from mass hysteria. But the gross breaches in ski etiquette are visibly more numerous.

Some of these are safety related. For example, The intersection of Upper Flume and Hootenanny at Snowshoe has become a social rendezvous point, never mind that two green runs that also serve as the access routes to the new Black Diamond territory also meet there. Same as the point immediately under the Powder Monkey lift, which is in itself the beginning of two black diamond runs.

Just my two cents...

I agree with your thoughts Lou, but this is nothing new. I really think the behavior is worse in this area because we seem to have a higher percentage of casual skiers, and by that I mean the ones who come out for a few hours or days to have fun but don't care about their skills or improving. Snowshoe seems to be especially bad in this regard. I am mortified by the number of people that come flying down the slopes in a petrified snowplow or other obviously out of control stance. They are a danger to everyone else on the slopes.

I wish the resorts put more effort into publicizing the skiers responsibility code and warning people that their ticket could be revoked if they skied out of control. Might help a little. I seriously think most people are unaware that the downhill skier/boarder always has the right of way, and if they cannot stop or avoid downhill traffic and obstacles, then they are out of control.

I don't have a lot of patience for out of control skiers, and have been tempted to yank tickets myself sometimes.

well, my feeling is that for some reason, skiing/riding has become , in the general public's eyes, this little recreational thing equivalent to tubing. i recall when i first started it seemed more "serious" and it was something with rules and a certain amount of peril, as opposed to going to an amusement park and riding a ferris wheel.

when i was starting out i accidentally clipped someone with my left pole .. i was mortified. it seemed like skiing was more of an elite group and i was trying very hard to not break that group's rules.

it seems that now not even is there less respect, but less awareness of the risky aspects of skiing, i.e. possibility of injury, etc ... and when some beginner now falls down because of being in over their heads they seem truly shocked it hurts and how could the ski area allow such things - there is a lack of self-accountability.

in fact, it impacts my own enjoyment of the sport in a way i never would have thought of perhaps 10-15 years ago ... i now actually feel somewhat guilty when i ski the way i like to with long radius , fast turns. not because of my fear of hitting someone (i am meticulous in calculating my line and sticking to it 100% of the time) but because i notice after i ski say under the chair @ liberty, all off a sudden i see folks trying to do the same with very scary results. i've had patrollers kindly ask me to slow it down a little not because i am going to fast for my ability but the "imitation factor" . weird.

i guess my point is what do you all think has changed ? it *does* seem different. i just can't put my finger on the change ... where is it? i see the result but not the cause.

Its not just on the slopes, ... but this gets to something that I really wish ski schools would do - educate. I think every beginner ski class should come with 1/2 hour minimum about ski culture, ettiquette, et al. We want to make people into skiers, not just sliders. big difference.

I think you nailed it with the amusement park description Crush -- that really seems to be a big part of it. Sure feels like an amusement park some weekends at Snowshoe and Wintergreen. Perhaps the sport has evolved to the point where it's more accessible to a wider range of participants. I think it's to the point where the crowds start to remind me of what I would see at a bowling alley, theme park, roller skate rink, etc. When these casual skiers start mixing in with the more serious crowd, it's bound to create some issues.

If you look at the infrastructure at a place like Wintergreen, it is very much setup to cater to this casual crowd. They have gotten good at moving masses of people through the rental process and up and down the hill, like herding cattle. Personally, the experience doesn't seem fun to me, but it's clearly a thrill to the people who show up. They will happily ski slush and mud amongst crowds and be oblivious to the fact that skiing can be so much better and rewarding. The skill set seems to be inline with that sort of mentality -- why take lessons or improve when you're happy as a clam the way things are? Seems like the resorts are sucking in the newbies and milking that market for all it's worth, with very little motivation to move the skiers upmarket to the next level.

I don't know, it's hard to reason some of this out. I had my teenage gaper days, skiing like a nutcase on crappy rental gear with the blue jeans and hunting clothes, so I know what it's like. One of my dad's friends who patrolled at Sugarbush actually told my dad that I was a menace on the slopes! But the same guy took me under his wing and eventually got me skiing pretty well. Maybe I was just lucky enough to have the friends, money, and surroundings to move my skiing to the next level and beyond. I guess some people don't have those influences/factors. I would still probably be a menace if someone hadn't straightened me out!

Dave, excellent point. I thought it was great when my wife's first lesson (4 yrs ago) included stuff like how to put your ski back on after it comes off, how to walk uphill and sideways in skis, how to get on/off the lift, hockey stops, and other practical stuff. Stuff that has nothing to do with actual skiing per se, but becomes damn important to be able to ski (I can't count the number of times I have seen someone crash and then struggle to put a ski back on, either because they didn't cock the binding or it was packed with snow, or they weren't putting the ski across the fall line). But I don't think her class included specific talk about etiquette and safety rules. I think 10-15 minutes of etiquette/safety primer would fit nicely into beginner lessons.

I just took a 1st time snow boarding lesson last weekend and I wanted to share some thoughts.

Skiing in control is sort of a relative concept. An intermediate does not have as much control as an expert, and a beginner has even less control. If you are a first time skier or boarder, you really have no control at first. You don't learn control on green slopes until after you get comfortable, balanced, and have skied for a few days at the minimum. I don't think that telling people who don't know what it is to be in control to ski in control is a very helpful tactic. My point is that on green terrain, there has to be a certain expectation that people will be out of control. They have to push themselves and be out of control in order to learn. The first time you carve a turn you are by definition out of control, you don't yet know what will happen because you have never done it that way before, but if you get it right its so awesome.

If you learn to ski in a crowded slope where people are literally pinponging off each other (typical green slope in the mid atlantic during a busy weekend) then a reasonable person might think that this is normal and 'OK'. Take that to intermediate terrain where speeds and consequences increase and you have a recipe for disaster.

The rules of skiing are already posted almost every where at every resort. I think the thing that is lacking is accountability. If a skier runs someone over, there has to be clear and visible consequences. When I was a kid I learned that if you ski fast and out of control ski patrol will yell at you and if they catch you twice they will pull your ticket, that doesn't happen any more.

I agree with you, Tromano, and believe that part of the answer is tight enforcement. As much as I ski and almost, live at Snowshoe, I have toyed with the idea of joining the ski or courtesy patrol. However, there seems to be little management support for aggressive enforcement of the ski code and as a result, the out-of-control skiers have the run of the place. Until something happens.

It was back in the early days of DCSki that I voiced my joy and admiration at a Colorado jury's finding a skier guilty of criminally negligent homicide in the 1997 death of another skier. In this case, it would have been a great opportunity to make it known throughout the ski industry that out of control skiers belong anywhere but in the ski runs. This incident, however, has faded into history.

I agree that in green runs, one can expect skiers to behave like inexperienced skiers. However, I have the right to expect skiers to behave otherwise in the blue runs, and I have the right to expect a different type of behavior on the black diamonds. With experience comes responsibility. A skier who is out of control in Cupp Run needs to have their ticket pulled.

As others have pointed, the "democratization" of skiing has also brought the demise of good manners in a sport that once thrived on its gentility and civility. Just try being polite and asking a group of boarders, all neatly lined up on a ski run blocking the entire path, that they should please stay to the side. The plethora of F-bombs will have enough energy to run a nuclear power plant for a year.

It would be easy to say that by pricing "rednecks" out of the slopes, such as Intrawest has endeavored to do at most of its resorts, one would get a better, upper middle and upper class skier population, similar to its makeup 30 years ago. However, this is not the case. Some of the least civil people around are the spoiled bratty kids of the nouveau rich who are not used to anyone telling them a flat "No". In this case, clipping tickets at ski areas is about the only answer.

ah ... this is from Martyn Hurn's book "Advance Skiing" which i have posted about several times - a book written in the early 90's. This is possibly the most insightful, eloquent writing on this subject i have ever read. I live by it. I no longer have the book; it fell to pieces after so long. but i saved this single page - page 14 - with this on it -

" .. The concept of control

Fear usually raises its ugly head when you no longer feel in control of a situation. The concept of control is an important one in advanced skiing. Consider for a moment the mogul masters, those bump skiers par excellence. When you watch them, not only are you impressed by the speed and directness with which they approach the bumps, but also by the fact that they seem to be in control. Yet ask yourself if they could actually stop quickly and the answer is, of course, no. So are they in control? In a sense yes and in another no. They are in control because they know that although they cannot stop immediately they can ski down to the bottom and stop there. When you were a beginner you were probably very conscience of the fact that you could not stop immediately, and this is what control meant to you. Yet as you got better you learnt that you could turn to miss obstacles and also that, although you could not actually stop on that spot, you could stop within a few metres and that was fine. As you progressed, so the distance over which your concept of control expanded. But at each hurdle in your development it will still be one of the stumbling blocks, therefore you should develop a strategy for overcoming it each time.
.......
We should examine this idea of control a little bit further because I imagine that for most of you control means keeping your speed down, yet there will come a stage when control will also mean building your speed up or at least maintaining it. This leads to another notion - that of whether you ski offensively or defensively. "

i try to ski as offensively and pro-actively as i can - however indeed one must have self-accountability. this is what snow-sports is about and this marketing move to make it fuzzy and warm is *not* a good thing.

Lots to think about here, wife's going for MRI on her knee tomorrow i'm not so upset as i was earlier in the day because she says she WILL ski again, it's funny til someone gets hurt and i'm sorry i'm not feeling too funny today.

Skiing in control is relative.....to the people around you...several have mentioned here that, and i agree there is such a lack of respect towards others on the slopes. This isn't some gameboyxbox virtual reality game this is life. I ask you to consider if someone with better skilz bombing thru the crowded green slope isn't in fact just as out of control as the newb or novice on that same terrain who is trying to have some fun on the snow..... i know or have skied with most of the posters in this discussion and i know we all like to push but never at the risk of hurting someone else.

Eric i've been trying put put into words for a couple of weeks what you bring up in your first post..... i busted on Taylormatt about then for something he posted <not here> about the skiers at timberline, not to defend timberline but to point out that this is how it is everywhere. I don't know how important it is what changed, or why, the better question is what can be done about it. The ski resort management do not have to accept responsibility and really in a liablility sense don't care. I've seen overzealous enforcement at camelback, i don't want that but the resort management cannot keep dumping 450 never evers out on the hill every saturday and expect or allow them to figure it out more or less all by themselves.

I suggested to some ski instructor friends a couple of weeks ago that ski patrol stop out of control or over terrained skiers that are clearly a hazard and give them the choice of either having their ticket clipped or paying a $15 fee, taking a lesson with a qualified instructor and getting a second chance. They thought that was a superb idea.

I love to ski, it makes me smile, it challenges me and i want to share it with others when i can. It is a risky sport but i would hope that a way can be found to limit the level of risk to what i as a skier choose, not to be cut down by some JONG that doesn't have a clue. I choose to ski more and more ungroomed terrain partly for the challenge and partly because it's much less crowded there.

Might be nice to get some Patrollers & instructors take on this.

Was gonna put this in the helmet thread, but it makes a lot more sense to put it here:

I think one factor that makes Snowshoe worse than other resorts is the fact that it is "upside down". Starting at the top doesn't give a skier/boarder any time to see the slopes that they plan to ski before they actually ski them. I know that when I first started skiing I would tell myself before I got there that I was going to ski Gravity at CV. After riding the lift up and seeing just how steep it was I would always make the smart choice and decide I wasn't ready. I don't know how many times I have seen people come right out of the TOTW Lodge, click in, point, and then go, without any regard as to what they are capable of.

Jimmy, I couldn't agree with you more...

I have come to believe that civility needs to be enforced. Perhaps making some people take lessons is the solution.

This may seem like over-the-top, but it demonstrates my feeling towards the subject which, in my opinion, is universal. A good friend of mine has a position in which he has to choose between finalists for jobs at the middle management to early senior management level. Invariably, he invites them to lunch at some high-venue such as the Army Navy Club or a top-notch DC restaurant (at his expense). Why? His idea is that if someone can't manage a fork and a knife and doesn't have the self-respect to behave properly in polite company, or dress properly according to the venue, he can ill be expected to enforce civility, proper decorum and manners in his subordinates.

I am not proposing that we take skiing back to the country club days (as much as I'd like to see it). America has changed tremendously in the last 40 years. But still, decorum and etiquette are the common threads that allow us to relate towards each other in an atmosphere of trust.

Five years ago, I introduced a side of my family to skiing, folks who had been reared in Florida and some had never seen a snowflake in their lives. As I got them to come over to my place at Snowshoe, I gave each a Christmas present of two days with a private instructor. Before the lesson, I met with the instructor and made emphasis that his job was not only to ensure they learned snowplow and parallel and linked turns, but also to ensure that the concept of gentility in the slopes was passed on as a necessary item. It worked.

This is my first post in a couple years but i'll have to do nothing but agree with what has been said about snowshoe, and i love the place. However, i no longer think the main snowshoe area is safe on a weekend, and I can only imagine how terrified a beginner may be out there in those mobs on the bottlenecked connector trails. I agree that on green terrain you need to be ready to experience the worst of skiers and give them their space accordingly. However some sort of enforcement needs to be handed down on those who clearly push beyond ability levels. Cupp is downright bad, but the place I am most concerned about is the terrain park. Although clearly labeled as double black terrain, there are skitards (and snowboardtards) snowplowing all over this area, sometimes snowplowing up tabletop ramps and not maintaining enough speed to even get up the ramp (thereby sliding backwards back down) let alone clear a transitional area to the landing zone. I know this isn't a big "park" forum, but it is in this area, where some expert skiers are flying 30-60 feet in some cases, that a senseless beginner is going to get seriously injured if not killed (and an expert snowrider will be living in guilt forever over it). I am by no means an "expert" park rider, but i like hitting tabletops and i am comfortable consistently landing 30-40 foot hits. I always take a scouting run through the park before hitting features, and I always give ample time for a jump to clear before proceeding. 2 weeks ago at Snowshoe I was progressing into the 3rd and final hit, which is about a 25 foot hit i would say. I came in with speed and as i passed the point of no return, a skier on the far right side of spruce glades immediately turned his head straight down snowplow due left, cutting all the way across the trail. I soared literally over his head screaming for him to look out and i was able to divert myself into a crash landing and "take one for the team" My point of impact was probably within 3 yards of this guy. 200 pounds of me coming down from 10-15 feet of height onto somebody with sharp edges strapped to my feet would have done possible fatal damage. What are these people doing on this type of terrain. A friend of mine once asked the park attendants why they couldn't enforce this policy. Apparently when they used to put up the orange gates at the entrance to spruce glades park to make it harder to get in, they were yelled at because it made the mountain "less accessible to all". Snowshoe's policy is apparently that the entire mountain must be available to everyone regardless of ability. This is straight stupid. If they don't start keeping beginners and low intermediates out of the steeper terrain and most especially the freestyle terrain, i see nothing but trouble in the near future. Snowshoe has "terrain gardens" with low level features for people to learn on all over the mountain. These are safe areas for gapers to try to hone in on their skills. I agree with the rest on this forum. OUt of control on CUPP or obvious snowplowers in an advanced park setting should mean instant ticket clippage, or at least a one strike warning and then clip policy.

Crush, Thanks for posting that quote. I learned to ski when I was a kid, like 11 yrs old so I don't really remember my first day on skis too clearly. All I can tell you is that for me falling every other turn on my first run down the magic carpet on a snowboard was pretty humbling. At first my only way to control speed or stop was to fall down. After doing that for a few hours I was able to make some brushed turns on my board. The instructor was basically like, "first thing I am going to teach you how to fall, and you will all be doing that a lot today, but if you fall enough, you will end up balanced and comfortable on your board."

Jimmy

You did not choose to continue about what happened after your wife unloaded from the lift. I can only assume she was hurt because of those 2 pant loads you mentioned. Sorry about that.

I am scared for my daughter after hearing how all the experienced skiers on this board have been victimized...she was taught well and is a good skier but she cannot avoid what she cannot see.

There are a variety of things that narrow the way down the hill...and all of these make the problem worse. Anything from people chatting in the middle of the hill to parents that are instructing their children as if they own the hill.

You cannot do much with the inconsiderate...but many times the clueless are just waiting for some guidance. Blowing a whistle and pointing usually invites defensive behavior...however someone skiing over with a friendly word explaining why you should clear the trail, or to look uphill before getting up after a fall I believe would have a different effect.

You never know who you are going to meet on the slopes, but almost everyone I have come across has been pretty cool. I think its just hard to maintain a bad attitude when you are outside doing something fun like skiing. Even the younger generation tweens are fairly approachable and in general respect gets respect (not F-Bombs).

I think the biggest problem with the story from the OP is that the guy had such a bad attitude. If a person is gonna run some one over and leave the other guy injured or unconscious without even doing anything for them and then try to turn it around like they were perfectly justified, its not even worth while trying to reason with them.

TR, most everyone is cool and civil. But it takes one potzhead to kill someone. And what is worse, when society doesn't enforce basic civility, it is like a cancer. It spreads.

Years ago, a politician proposed the principle of the "broken window" syndrome. It's about time we skiers fixed the windows, albeit with the cooperation of the resort operators. If they are too timid, perhaps the adverse publicity will convince them otherwise.

A great thread. Obviously we are not going to completely solve this problem, especially when management is not showing interest in solving the problem, or ever acknowledging that there is a problem. I would hope that the ski area managers that read these posts (and they do, I truly believe), especially at Snowshoe, will attempt to implement some sort of improved control beginning now.
I can remember when Wintergreen first opened the Highlands expert slopes; there was a ski patroller at the entrance to the new slopes and he watched you ski and then marked your ticket with a symbol that meant you could or could not continue to the harder slopes. They did this for several years until the din from those denied access caused management to give up the practice. While riding up the Highlands chair this past Friday with a ski patroller I was pleased to hear him radio to his peers that he was working the Highlands because there had been reports of out of control skiers/boarders on the slopes. As we rode up he intently watched the downhillers looking for problems. Near the top he spotted a snow plower heading down a double black diamond slope. He quickly exited the chair looking like a redneck cop chasing a speeder as he took after the skier. When he noticed the skier actually going faster and in control he held back. But when he saw another that was out of their element/control he went over and escorted them back to the easier slopes, marking their lift ticket with a big "H" indicating they were not allowed back on the Highlands slopes that day. This is responsible management and control. Another bad mark and the ticket would be pulled.
We need more of this, along with, as others have said, a respectful explanation as to why the observed behavior was improper and perhaps dangerous.
I do think that more frequent signage with the rules about downhill skiers/boarders always having the right of way would be really useful. Why not put some of these signs on the lift towers vice a few of the ads that are on the poles.
Great thread....keep it going!
Lou, I too was thinking that the switch over from ski slopes to ski/rider slopes had an impact on the situation. The early crowd of boarders were basically outsiders (surfers, etc.) not necessarily known for their manners, etc. For years there was a real rebellious attitude, both from skiers and boarders. Now-a-days the majority of boarders are just like you and me - out to enjoy the slopes. Unfortunately some of the rebellious rudeness of their boarding predecessors has endured, probably because that is what they observed when they first started boarding. Things like sitting in the middle of a trail, no matter how narrow. And now you see more skiers picking up some of these "bad" habits. Rudeness begets rudeness, and sometimes I believe those being rude are oblivious to the fact that what they are doing is rude, ugly and downright dangerous. More education is the key, and if it offends, so be it!
Somehow it must stop.
If not now, when?
If not here, where?
If not us, who?

The Colonel

Most areas are somewhat reluctant to clip a ticket, because after all these are paying customers who they want to return. However, I really feel that most people who are new to sport really don't think it is that dangerous. I have toyed with the idea of a "Blood on the Highway" type film, but if you do this before they hit the slopes for the first time, you may just scare them right back to the parking lot! So, I am not sure if this is the correct approach. And yes GRK, I too am scared for my kids, but I cannot lock them in the house. We are going to burn up some free tickets this Friday & Sat at Wintergreen & Snowshoe (Big shout out to Steve for the WG tix!). And I sure don't want anything bad to happen prior to the end of the month trip to Breck.

exactly - you can ski fast, but there is a time and place. and countless times i see people with neither the skill nor the judgment and the thing of it is they are selfish and lack humility. to ski this way only smacks of disregard for others coupled with unwarranted self-aggrandizement and lack of self-understanding.

indeed - this of all things- may be the problem. i always notice that certain sports/activities attract similar mentalities. good skiers and riders have fun, but are serious about their sport, and wear their advancements and masteries with pride.

the general public, being of course the general public, is not particularly biased in this direction, thus the friction. can the ski areas help .. read on ..



thus the problem - i think not about enforcement, as you point out, when i consider the fix for the problem. it helps a little, but most of the time it actually flames the fires ... how many times have those that got yelled at wear the admonishment with pride? "oh cool" they say "i was kicking so fast i got yelled at".

it is, however, clear your "450 never evers" need guidance, and perhaps this is more reasonable. the notion of "it's my money i forked over so i can do what i want" makes the mountain again seem like something to not take seriously. i think most of us can visually look at a skier or rider at the top of a run and even before they start to go have a general feel for how good they are.

at many back country gates a ski partroller will give you the once-over as you try to pass ... perhaps just the presence of a patroller at the top of harder runs might help a little. to stand in front of someone at the top may be more effective than yelling at a speed-blurry out-of-control person at the bottom.



combine with my statement above and it actually could work.



- ditto -

I thought it was great when Wintergreen policed the entrance to the Highlands, and they were fair about it. When I was on a group trip there many years ago with some people from work, they let a coworker's kid through with me because I promised to look after him (he did fine). And they ejected another fellow because he was skiing out of control and about to kill himself. In both cases, they made good decisions. It's too bad they stopped policing the entrance. The Highlands really isn't that tough, but I see a lot of skiers over there who should not be on those trails, not even close.

So how do we start a dialog with local ski area management to ask for improvements in safety?

- we approach it as an organized group. a good place to start is the nsaa - i have no idea if our local hills are members, however they are based in Mclean VA so a face to face is probably do-able. Here is a link
http://www.nsaa.org/

... just an idea ...

... edit - sorry they *were* in Va they moved .. oh well ...

Take this a step further. Talk about lift line behavior. Then look at how some of these slobs abuse parking at ski areas even when posted. I have tales, some humerous, some sad, about how folks feel that their #*&$% doesn't stink and that they can do what they want, where thay want, and when they want. They don't give a rat's rump if they inconvenience others or infringe on the rights of others as long as they get what they want. I can go on and on, however civility goes beyond the slopes. It's an attitude that a society has. Ours has regressed to a point that is almost embarassing. I work with teens every day and it's not the kids who cause the problems, it's the parental attitude that enables the kids. But it's not all the kids or all parents. But as the saying goes, "one bad apple....."

Interesting thread. Let me throw my two cents in from the view of a patroller at a local area. From the inside perspective, at least one Area management "gets" it. Last year, Liberty Mountain introduced an initiative area wide to make skiing and boarding safer. This involved a number of steps including new signage, better education to groups, and increased enforcement against reckless skiing ("Ski Fast = Lose Pass"). That initiative has carried over into this year as well and both Ski Patrol and Mountain Safety have been tasked with ensuring slope safety (and courtesy) are maintained - especially on weekends.

Has this made a difference? So far, it seems to have. Accident numbers are anecdotally lower with seemingly fewer major injuries. Ski Instructors seem to have fewer problems with teaching groups especially in Family Ski Zones and slow skiing areas. And skiers and riders looking for challenges still have the double black upper trails as well as a variety of hits, features and launches in the Terrain Park.

Of course, feedback helps. If you like what's going on, be sure to tell Liberty Mountain management. Every now and then, there are complaints from folks that claim we've taken the fun out of skiing (I tend to disagree!). So feedback helps. Conversely, if you see a problem or lack of enforcement, be sure to tell Patrol (either Ski Patrol or Mountain Safety) or management. Liberty Mountain continues to be one area that takes very seriously the issue of safe skiing.

Apparently, Liberty Mountain "gets it". Snowshoe's senior management can't bring itself to post a comments area on their website. I finally found it after searching all over and it is only accessible from the site map.

What I intend to do today is to walk into the GM's office and ask him to read some of these comments. Hopefully the largest area in the Mid Atlantic has some responsive leadership.

Lou i mentioned this exchange in my first post; it pertains to the this topic and a couple of Mid-Atlantic resorts.

I would be impressed if someone in the front office at SS read this thread and even more impressed if they made a coordinated effort to get more details and feedback from us. Let's hope something happens. They could definitely take the lead on this and make an effort to improve safety and behavior on the slopes. Could only be good for business.

I think lack of civility is a problem as is the general design of the Basin area at Snowshoe.

Lou, running into someone is somewhat understandable; accidents do happen. The response from the boarder was not acceptable and displays a callous disregard for his fellow boarders and skiers that leads one to believe that he was riding out of control.

The Basin at Snowshoe invites casual and beginner skiers onto terrain where they don't belong. Let's face it, 99% of the runs over there are fairly easy; especially if they're groomed. Most advanced runs have a short, steep entrance followed by much gentler, green-level terrain.

Now on a weekday when there's barely anyone there, I coudl care less if some novice skier wants to ski a blue or a black run there. There's nobody for them to run into or otherwise endanger. Heck it might even cause them to take a lesson or improve their technique. That being said, crowded conditions warrant a situational awareness to where this should not happen and the ski patrol needs to do a much better job of enforcing this.

It's also the reason why after 11am on a Saturday you'll find me doing laps on Bear Claw (after skiing WT until it crowds up)

I had a situation this winter that drove home that its not just an issue of civility its just being oblivious to the consequences of your actions. I'm running a DC snowboard group and I decided it might be a good idea to have sort of a beginners clinic. The plan wasn't to teach noobs how to stand up and ride but more how to refine your technique and control and maybe impart a little etiquette so that they would understand how to fit into the community. So I had one guy show up and he had just bought a used board off craigslist or something. The front binding only had 2 of the 4 screws in it and both were loose. I told him to go fix it before he went anywhere near a lift and he kind of looked at me funny. I explained that it was dangerous and his foot might come off the board mid slope and he could go get injured. He went to the rental shop and got it fixed. While he was gone I asked his buddy who had been riding something like 8 years if he was okay on blues and he said that he was fine. Fair enough we'll try it.

I pick out a quieter blue so we're out of the way and of we go. This busted a$$ board having guy fell the whole way down. He couldn't initiate or complete a single turn but as soon as he fell he would get back on his feet and get far enough to fall again. I'm following him down trying to get him to stop but he just keeps going. So we get to the bottom and I tell him that he shouldn't be on the that slope that he'll get hurt, which he grins and says hes fine, and that he might kill someone else and that he came close a few times. He didn't even think about it. So with that we go over to the green runs where I go through some control drills, turn initiation and stopping, falling leaf etc etc. So after 2 runs he's doing 100% better. I tell him to stick to the green and work on it, take his time and be aware of whats going on.

Later that day he joins us back on the blue. I'm pretty wary of the whole deal so before we go I tell him to take his time, I'll follow him and if I say stop he has to stop. Fine. We head halfway down stop for a little bit. He's looking like he's actually doing fine so I take the lead my friend follows me, he follows her. I get to the bottom and look back. No sign of my friend, a really good boarder, no sign of the noob. 10 minutes later he shows up and says my friend is injured. Turns out he ran into the back of her. Her knee is now shot, possible ligament and tendon damage and her season is shot.

Now I've got a dilemma. Do I really want to run a group where I may end up responsible for the obliviousness of others? Do I only accept members of a certain level? How do I enforce that and be fair? How do I put this across without sounding preachy?

Jimmy, couldn't agree with you more... The growth of the resort real estate-wise has overwhelmed the meager growth of the ski operations area.

Today at 1435 it is raining dogs and cats at the Shoe. I'm not venturing out there.

You know, to be fair I'm not sure that the lack of civility has gotten worse... maybe it has, I'm just not sure. The only time I've ever been plowed over by someone unrepentant about it was when I was 6- 26 years ago- at Gore Mountain in New York. The guy took me out from behind, screamed at me "look out where you're going kid" and kept going. My dad followed him down the mountain and had his ticket yanked. I also got plastered by a guy at Wisp back in 1985, but that guy felt terrible- helped me back up, apologized about 500 times, etc.

I'm trying to think of really rude incidents skiing recently, but all I've got is a kid who almost ran me off a trail at Wisp and a teenager two weekends ago who cut the liftline at the local ski hill. As a matter of fact, at Breckenridge this past December, on a weekend day, I was shocked by how polite people were (including the teenagers)- everytime someone even brushed your pole they would turn and apologize to you. Everytime I've been through Denver I've been amazed at how uncivil the drivers are, so I was totally not expecting people to be polite at the Breck. It was very welcome and very addictive, I found myself apologizing practically if I was in line ahead of other people.

Part of me wonders whether this isn't a problem related to DC and other big, overcrowded locations. Stress factor from the workweek, people bringing it onto the slopes with them. But then again, I tend to avoid bigger resorts precisely because I'd prefer not to deal with this, and at the more local hills you're apt to get fewer people and fewer jerks, as a good rule of thumb. Or if I go to the big resorts, I go midweek or go- like Jimmy- for the harder terrain.

That said, there was this one punk at Park City who was spraying snow all over me on the race to the Jupiter Lift on a powder day... oh wait, that was JohnL before we had ever met. It's funny, I can still distinctly recall being sprayed by snow from some punk's twin-tip skis during the death derby down to the lift, thinking "what the hell" and then finding out a few weeks later it was John. Ha! Serves me right for not wearing goggles, I guess.

I've definitely noticed a way more mellow vibe out west. Maybe it's because there is so much space to spread out. Around here we're all crammed together so people get uptight. It's kind of like driving in heavy traffic or rush hour. There's a tendency to get frustrated, ut when you have a clear road and people are driving reasonably sensibly you don't even really think about it.

It's not an excuse to act that way but it may explain some of it. I've definitely noticed that my riding style mellows out a little out west. I still ride fast and hard but I feel looser and more laid back.

tough call, K. ... i don't have an answer, really. guess you can earnestly advise someone that they should get more experience through instruction (i've got my polite-hat on now), and perhaps next time they can join in. i think it re-enforces the concept of snowsports being a multi-level sport where you ascend and grow.

Roger the topic is civility but most of the posts here have been complaining about people who are skiing/riding terrain that's way over their heads and are a hazard to others and what can be done about it. That's my concern at least. Probably worse here because the ski areas are smaller and more crowded and you have people of varying ability all mixed together.

so J - how is your wife? how did the mri go?

Lou,
And if the Shoe continues to use the model of having builders pay for slope improvements, and with the housing slow down, needed slope expansion, lifts, etc. are out of the question for the immediate future.
I might not be correct, but I believe the reason for moving the Widowmaker chair more to the right, and installing the high speed might part of a long term plan that reopens the Hawthorn part of the mountain. You could run the Soaring Eagle Express across the parking lot and road and down the Hawthorne slope area. Add anoter off lift ramp at the top of the other side, and a corresponding on ramp at the bottom, and you have a potentially large new area with lots of vertical.
Any talk about such a possibility?
The Colonel

so now i have my real true=2=life caustic hat on.

i read about jimmy z's wife

i see things on epicSki

and above my screen a bigfatass header from SNOWSHOE

"snowshoe mountain's south mountain expansion
3 new trails "

hmmm let me be so politically incorrect and socially correct:

[censored] YOU SNOWSHOE

oohh not constructive , is it - just to the point.

In a sense I agree with you Roger... We all yearn for the times we consider the "good 'ole days" as the control factor in the great experiment of life...

However, I absolutely believe that along with a general, across the board decrease of civil behavior in our social order, there has been a corresponding decrease in the sense of responsibility towards each other that makes us a society or better yet, a community. Within the skiing community, historically associated with a more "genteel" segment of our society, the decrease is palpable.

I don't think it is East vs. West. Stowe has generally been regarded as a place where gentlemen and ladies go to ski. By and large, it is still that way, and the resort is making itself even more so.

Is it the Mid Atlantic, with its part-time skiers who have never, ever been associated with a ski culture?

Is it the iPod-wearing, Eminem-listening young punks so overwhelmed with steroids who consider any challenge to their Alpha behavior a threat to their existence?

Is it the democratization of the ski industry that encourages resort to cater to a segment of the population for whom etiquette is a character flaw?

City vs country may or may not be a player. The rudest people in the world can be country people with a false sense of entitlement. Believe me, I've see it firsthand as a part of my job. Likewise, the number one cause of damage in our condo complex is rural and suburban church groups... and in this case, the more pious, the more rotten the behavior when they're away from the altar...

Colonel, last I heard, Hawthorne had a horrible exposure and nobody was sorry to see it close. It's probably not practical to open those trails. However, there are plans for more trails in the Sawmill area according to the site plan here:

http://www.sawmillvillage.com/siteplan.html

Interestingly, the future slope shown in the lower left seems to go downhill left to right, so it has me wondering where the top of that is, and if another lift would be put in. Perhaps that hints at expansion going around the other side of the basin. That would be pretty awesome.

Oh, don't get me wrong Lou, I know there's some rude people in the country too, I'm just wondering aloud about an "in general" way of life- especially the suburban life (not necessarily an urban one), which you've chosen to stay away from and which is probably good for your sanity.

It's definitely not an east-west thing either- like I said the drivers around Denver are nuts (in one weekend I saw three near-misses right in front of me, and another trip through I watched two guys in minivans try to run each other off the road with such rage that everyone on the highway dropped to about 35 in fear), and my aunt in L.A. told me that just a couple days ago she watched someone get out of their car after a small fender bender and start beating on the 80 year old woman who dinged her bumper. And out here we've got the wonderful mix of people who own motorboats and drink. I'm sure things are nuts and uncivil- and occasionally deadly- down at Lake of the Ozarks (home of Party Cove!!!) on the 4th of July and Labor Day.

When people act like that, wherever they are, can we expect them to just turn it off when they hit the mountains, or the beach, or wherever? There could be 1,000 different reasons this is happening, but I guess the real question is what to do about it.

One other small point- I'm not sure why you think that the sport of skiing has been "democratized." I'd say just the opposite has happened- it's become increasingly a domain of the privileged class. We're not skiing down rope tows in farmfields (well, two guys in western VA are but not most of us) anymore like our parents did. The common thread I see in the different discussions is either resorts that cater to teenagers, the nouveau riche, or push speed (fast up, hurry down, max out your runs=good ski trip). Ticket prices have outpaced inflation, and good luck trying to brown bag in a cafeteria these days.

Say... has anyone ever had problems with a lack of civility at Silver Creek?

skier219,
Many of the earlier Intrawest plans for Shoe slope expansion included a major slope system on the mountain across the lake from the basin side, mostly blue terrain.
In the last few years I have heard more about expanding skiers right beyond Widowmaker. Maybe as the first step toward reaching the other side of the lake, albeit the opposite direction for basin connection than that shown on the first plans. As you said, expansion beyond the present 2 new trails would require a lift moving up that side of the mountain, beyond the Sawmill housing complex.
The Colonel

You mean like the old Sunrise/Sunset lifts at 7 Springs? does anyone have a lift system like that any more?

Got postponed until tonite her knee is loose and a bit swollen & painful. Thanks to all who asked.

Don't know if anyone noticed but I'm not a big snowshoe fan. Cupp Run was so sweet along the edges Saturday but the rest of their mountain bores me to tears. Greta however was having such a great time skiing the powder ridge area. She can ski the blues at Timberline but at this stage of her game she is more confident on mellower terrain and was really enjoying the variety at Snowshoe. Too bad her day/season got cut short.

Unfortunately, yes. My wife's ACL injury a couple years ago was preceded by a near miss with a snowboarder on one of the green trails over there. And I have seen some people flying down the two black trails there, totally out of control and clipping other skiers/boarders because they could not stop or change direction.

On a recent trip I remember seeing a skier flying down one of the blues under a lift, in a super wide snowplow with his arms outstretched (apparently going for the width/sail approach to speed control). He skied right over the back of some dude's snowboard and didn't even stop. I remember hearing the snowboarder say "that guy had no clue". When I see someone straightline a trail in a panicked snowplow, I know trouble is in the air.

Finally, there were a group of drunk college age guys in the lift corral one afternoon we were there, and they could barely stand up. After one of them nearly knocked my wife over, I reached over and popped the guy's heel pieces off with my pole to keep him from dominoing the whole crowd. Believe me, I was tempted to throw the guy's skis into the woods. I doubt he even made it onto the lift.

So while Silver Creek is less crowded and generally better than Snowshoe, there are still uncivil and dangerous skiers/boarders over there.

I don't know if it would fall under a lack of civility but I did see a snowboarder Terry Tate a female skier on Cascade. He seemed to be in control but was not paying attention to his backside blind spot.

The drivers in UT are really really horrible. Total jerks. But at the ski areas most people are pretty nice and relaxed. I thought that almost everyone at 7S was pretty cool and relaxed too. I think 7S has much more of a Pittsburgh vibe where as other resorts like wisp and whitetail definitely have a DC vibe.

The thing about Denver though is that it's a completely different to the actual mountain areas. It blows my mind but from talking to people I know who have lived in CO it seems that the Denver population is pretty much as bad as the DC population. Denver, despite it's altitude, typically doesn't get a whole lot of snow and what it does get melts off very quickly. As a result they have the same hysteria during storms as this area including the milk, bread TP phenom. They also have a huge swath of population that dare not even approach the mountains, I know weird right?.

I think what also may make a difference out west is that most of these resorts are essentially vacation destinations. When you go on vaca you generally try to avoid aggravation. Local resorts are either day trippers or weekenders and theres a tendency for folks to lose their freakin minds.

OHMYGOD Roger! This is a first in DCSki history... We agree 100 percent... Does this mean we will get a snowstorm now?

T, the two main reasons why I bought a place at the Shoe were, first, my dog, and second, the fact that I do not want to have a driving vacation. Once the Jeep gets me to the mountain on Thursday evening, I don't see, touch, or do nor want to do anything having to do with an automobile.

As a result, I spend some awesome weekends at Snowshoe...

.. word! they suck! i love it when u r driving through an intersection and some person pulls out in front of you when there is 25 feet of space and u are going 50.... and does not even accelerate much!

Hey man, twin tips keep the riff raff and yahoos away from me; my own personal safety zone.

OK... Let's list the most uncivil things that get your dander up or that make you wish the Guillotine was still operating in France...

1. Boarders or skiers resting or yapping while sitting across the entire width of the trail, blocking it.

2. Someone cutting in line at the lift line

3. Snowplowers on a Black Diamond

4. Drunk skiers

5. iPod-wearing, clueless skiers

6. Running over someone, causing him/her to fall and not even saying "excuse me"

7. ???

ok, I'll bite.
#1. Snowboarders who side slip down an advanced trail. You know the type. They, along with skiers in a power wedge, are too #@&%*!! to really ski/ride it!
#2. Idiots who can't get on or off a chair causing it to be
stopped while a lifty removes the carnage.
#3. Those, who for whatever reason, must pull the bar down as soon as they get on the chair. Especially dangerous if the bar has foot rests.
#4. Most other peeves listed by others.

I'll agree on all but wonder about this one... I have always thought that the bar increases your safety margin. I'm not comfortable riding all the way up with the bar up. I'll wait a reasonable time to ensure everyone is comfortable before bringing the bar down, but after a while, it does come down. Is there a time that you'd wait?

Usually after I'm sure that my equipment and that of the other chair riders has a minimum of 4/5' of air under it, then down with the bar. If no footrests, it can go down when everybody is comfortable. I've seen, and started to ride a chair with folks who pull the bar (with footrests) down and get their equipment or themselves pulled off when it catches in the snow under foot. It's not real common, but on a busy day, I've witnessed it happening 2 or 3 times.

In terms of people falling @ the lifts I'll excuse it on a fixed gripped but not detachable. I saw one guy at whitetail ski up to the line for the high speed and kind of keep going without sitting down on the chair. Took 5 minutes to clear him out, idiot. Also seen people try to ski into the line with a group at the last second either knocking them down thus causing the chair to stop which then results in having to ride up with a group of folks who instantly hate you or they cant count and you end up with 5 people waiting for a 4 man the majority of them instantly hate you.

In terms of the bar. On a full chair I find it pretty uncomfortable with a board stuck to my foot, but if you must put it down at least wait until we're all settled in and please call it before you you drop it. I hate when people start lowering it and it catches my arm or clocks the top of my head, if it meets resistance stop and back up stop trying to hack off bits of me to get the stupid bar down. If I'm solo or with friends I ride no bar unless it's a particularly hairy chair ride, i.e some of the gnarlier doubles out west.

I thing that the subject of civility on the slopes also includes the almost forgotten art of anticipating and being aware of the way our actions could affect the comfort of others.

I don't want to seem like Amy Vanderbuilt (after all, she committed the atrocious faux pas of jumping off a window) but civility is what allows us to live comfortably with other human beings.

On a chairlift, it includes being aware of how our action of inaction may impact on others' comfort and welfare. I absolutely believe that the bar is safety and will vehemently promote its use, but lile kwillg6 and kennedy stated, with the caveat of waiting.

iPod users can be another source of frustration on the slopes. Disconnecting from the rest of the world while doing a sport that demands constant connection to one's surroundings seems to me a very rude thing to do...

I was on a trip out west with a friend who's a bit skittish on any lift (and worse at ones like chair 11 at Vail).

I had to mandate a rule that he wasn't allowed to even try to lower the bar until we passed the first tower out of the lift house, because it was impossible to get settled in time otherwise. He'd basically sit down and immediately pull the bar down. On a full chair of full-sized people (2 of us at/around 6 feet, 3 of 4 over 200 lbs), it takes a minute to get situated...


aaron

At Wisp on Presidents day they had just opened the second chair (they have two next to each other) so I jumped on, relaxed, my skis caught the snow and I was dragged on to my face. Hesitate to think what would happen if the bar was down. Later I could see that they dug out a channel so that skis could hang down.

The two that really bug me 1) are the snowboarders across a trail putting on their boards and 2)people who blow by close on either side. They may think they know what I'm going to do, but there is no way they can be sure. And usually no room to maneuver if I were to turn the other way. No sure if these are experts or just folks who think they are.

Steve

OK. from the previous posts - is this comprehensive enough for a list of skiing transgressions punishable by waterboarding or public flogging?

1. Boarders or skiers resting or yapping while sitting across the entire width of the trail, blocking it.

2. Someone cutting in line at the lift line

3. Snowplowers on a Black Diamond

4. Drunk skiers

5. iPod-wearing, clueless skiers

6. Running over someone, causing him/her to fall and not even saying "excuse me"

7. Snowboarders who side slip down an advanced trail as well as skiers in a power wedge

8. Idiots who can't get on or off a chair causing it to be
stopped while a lifty removes the carnage. (Isn't that what the Magic Carpet is supposed to prevent?)

9. Those, who for whatever reason, must pull the bar down as soon as they get on the chair without ensuring everyone else is adequately prepared. Especially dangerous if the bar has foot rests.

Hey Lou this is the first time I've looked at this message board in a week, yes let's not do that 100% agreement thing again kind of scary.

That said, I know most of us here are pretty good skiers so it's not first on our minds a lot, but people who blow through beginner areas or slow ski zones when beginners are present get my gander up. Like you said, civility is about trying to understand the other person's perspectives, and that can really freak a beginner out.

Dad's (or mom's, but mostly when I see it it's dads) who drag their children up onto expert slopes, while their child is wildly crying because they're a beginner, because said dad (mom) is too macho to back off for the couple hours when it is their turn to watch their own son or daughter.

Lifties who don't grab the chair (non-high speed) while you're loading, or won't slow it down when you have a beginner with you.

In mogul fields, the guy who skis in front of you and then stops about two moguls down, clearly in your line (this is one of the few times I do NOT observe the "don't ski too close to someone" rule).

On a hike route, people who don't step aside when they stop to take a breather and block the whole trail instead.

Anyone who spews racial epithets while riding a chair in mixed company (true incident at Whitetail) as if it were no big deal.

Dropping the F-bomb in mixed company on a chairlift.

Skiing with someone who is not having a good time and says things to you to try to ruin your day, too (happened once, but not with anyone on this board).

There's probably more, but those are some of my items.

You said something quite important. Civility is closely related to empathy. Not sympathy, but empathy. Putting oneself in someone else's shoes and thinking "Would I like it if someone did this to me? Or my mom? Or dad? Or a close family member of friend?

In skiing, however, new people to the sport need to be instructed in the proper etiquette. It places demands on instructors as well as the general ski population. And it even more important as the etiquette of skiing is intrinsically related to safety.

I'll add one. I hate skiing in the mid-Atlantic with someone who has to spend the whole time telling me how the resort is nothing like the ones out west. I know Winterplace isn't Alta but it's whole lot closer than the couch in my living room!

Hey, if you don't like your local ski hill, don't ski it. Why waste the money to belly-ache all day about it? And anyone who can't figure out that Winterplace isn't Alta probably is a danger to some poor oxygen cell that could otherwise serve a meaningful life combating global warming.

Good word, "empathy," a declining value in our day? Sure seems like it at times, especially when you read a post like this one!

... send 'em my way - i'll beatch-slap 'em - frickin' posers ...

My reply is that "people in hell want ice water, eh?"...

PROVEN

Generation ME


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/28/AR2008022803315.html?sub=AR

Comprex, you have a point. A big point.

This may sound extreme, but I have always, always, believed in universal military service for each and every adult (men AND women) as a price for being a citizen. If anything, it teaches each person that there is a price for the general welfare. It also teaches that the individual's goals must be subservient to those of the community, even if this means giving up one's life.

But back to skiing... I believe civility in the slopes needs to be enforced. It is the responsibility of the ski resort operators, it is the responsibility of the ski patrol, of the ski instructors, and yes, it is our responsibility. Chasing down someone who just hurt someone and calling the ski patrol at the lift line is good behavior.

OK, I guess I'll have to finally jump in. Things that sliders do that ticks me off:

• Similar to one mentioned by Roger, but even worse. People who stop on traverses (slight uphill or downhill) on places such as Solitude's Honeycomb Canyon or Snowbird's Road to Provo. You can waste a lot of valuable kinetic energy because of those morons and often the terrain is too dangerous to pass them.
• People who pee in the middle of those traverses leaving obstacles for those behind them. I come across this at least a couple of times a day out West. Presumably left by males, but back in my Dewey daze I've met a couple of women who fit the bill. If you hit my pee, you'll generally won't care cuz you're stuck in a tree well.
• People who ski traverses across untracked terrain, obtaining no good turns, and ruining the lines for those above.
• People who don't look uphill before starting. I'll give them a deliberate close call if I'm in a lousy mood. Uncivil, so next item:
• Myself on most days.
• Yahoos who continue to yank the chairlift bar down, even when they meet resistance. Often, that resistance is caused by the top of my head, my arm, a piece of my clothing or my ski poles.
• James Dean wannebees who insist on leaving the chairlift bar up until the very last second. Hey, the ride up was so good, the ride down must be even better.

Interesting comments, JohnL. Now there are about six people who are concerned about chairlift bar use.

Skiingresource.com has an entire page devoted to etiquette and I'm citing the URL below as well as quoting their etiquette rules. Again, common sense... http://www.skiingresource.com/Ski_Etiquette.html


The Etiquette of Sking and Snowboarding

*Do not stop or congregate in the lift line to wait for friends or adjust equipment. Wait for friends BEFORE you get into the lift line, not where the chair is loading.

*When it is your turn to load, move forward and get on the chair. Do NOT wait for others or let a chair go by when people are waiting behind you.

*Always warn others when bringing down the safety bar on the chairlift.

*If a single, move forward to fill up the next available chair if there are people waiting in line behind you.

*If you fall while loading or unloading, your FIRST priority is to move yourself and equipment away from the landing area and allow others to keep moving.

*On paths, do not take up the entire width by zigzagging. Respect others moving at different speeds than you are.

*Be aware of your surroundings! Keep your head on a swivel and know where others are Regardless of who has the right of way.

*When passing fast, give wide berth to slower skiers/boarders.

*If you drop something while riding on the chairlift, note the spot and do your best to retrieve it.

Secretly, Lou watches "300" every night and yells "This. Is. SPARTA!!!!!" when he starts his ski run. It really helps to clear the trail out!

John, I think I bopped your head once on the chair, sorry about that, just don't throw me off in a rage if it happens again. And no, I didn't start all my powder runs last weekend with "Cheney skis in blue jeans!" That is clearly a Wolf Creek, early spring thing.

Here are a few things that piss me off:

* People that cram themselves onto a chair at the last minute, when the existing "group" has already gotten into position. I've had a single wedge himself in between me and my wife when we were already on the loading line, and I've been a single when 2-3 guys decide to jump in around me. Once a skier/group goes out to the loading line, everybody else should stay back and wait for the next chair.

* Definitely don't like it when people drop the bar too quickly, without a warning. At least call out "bar coming down" first. It was actually nice being at Alta the last few days with no bars -- I never got clocked in the head!

* Out of control skiers on any level terrain. I don't mind seeing beginners on advanced terrain if they are in control (good for them).

* People who don't understand that the downhill skier has the right of way, and the uphill skier is required to avoid all traffic/obstacles. And at the same time, I don't like downhill skiers who enter a trail or start skiing without yielding to uphill traffic first.

* Smokers on chairlifts who have no manners. I've ridden up with smokers who manage to light up and enjoy a smoke without imposing on everybody else, and that's fine -- no problems there. But I've also ridden up with people who blow cigar smoke and ashes at me, and that's not cool at all.

* People loitering in the chair line, waiting for someone else, and blocking the chair. Do the waiting somewhere else! I've also been behind groups who were so busy talking and dude'ing it up that they were letting empty chairs go by while people piled up behind them.

* Unsupervised kids who *need* supervision, and the parents who are not paying attention. I run into plenty of kids on the slopes who are a joy to be with, so I know it's not a general issue, but there are a few kids who definitely need some parent supervision for any number of reasons.

I'll add to the list as time goes on...

Hmm. You do realise that this thesis is going against every last grain of both commercial (YOU matter! YOU are the boss!) and political (empower yourself! Our policies fit YOU!) advertising invented in the last, oh, 30 years?

Comprex, I think that's the reason why the Army took away their "Army of One"...

I found it that for many younger people in dire natural disaster situations, learning the concept of community was indeed a hard lesson... one that they had to learn and adapt, despite the rhetoric of individualism. Being helpless and having to ask for sustenance from your neighbors can be a good thing.

Ironically, despite the perception of independence, there is probably no society in the history of the world that is less independent than the modern, developed, western society. We are utterly and completely dependent on one another, and it runs so deep in the way society operates that many don't even realize it's there. We have "freedom" to pursue intellectual, physical, moral desires because of our overall wealth, but that wealth has come about through the genuis of specialization, which can only in turn come about because we (unconsciously, perhaps) allow other people to produce goods and services which we desire, or need. The average person has no capability whatsoever to supply their basic needs, either by the standards of a modern society (try building a car on your own) or in the primitive agro-hunter sense (building shelter, cultivating crops, etc).

In that respect, we might be one of the most communist societies ever. We don't control everyone's wealth, the very order and structure of the advanced western economy controls something far more fundamental. And no one really controls anything, anyway. That's the beauty of it- it came about not through dictatorial fiat but unconsciously and through self-interest, perhaps the only way that true revolutionary change can ever occur.

Oh, yeah, people shouldn't run over your skis. Very uncouth.

Is this Roger or Ayn Rand speaking?

Ayn Rand would have stepped on your skis... And put her pole on the back of your release and pushed it too... her self interest told her that she needed to get to the chairlift before you... :-)

Well, at least Ms. Rand would get to ski. She'd would have to make her way past the mob of liberals at the bottom waiting for the first 2000 person chairlift to be built, since it would be patently unfair for anyone to make it to the top before another skier. Ooops, excuse me, slider person to not exclude boarders, snow bladers, pinheads and others. Maybe slider organism would be more correct? If the lift is ever built, the progressive lift pricing system based on one's income would take some refining. Of course the lift itself will be paid for by only taxing those who make more the $100K a year. :-)

Personally, both the far left and the far right scare me.

JohnL still stuck on a ca$h economy. Pricing? Taxing? .

Money is the tool of the state, ensuring alienation from what one does best into what one does at lowest relative cost.

So long as the state specifies legal tender and the owning thereof, it also specifies comparative advantage and there is no communism. Everything else is a red herring.

PS Wanna race? Your hand-cut hickory slats, pine tarred, shellacked, (lard or tallow optional) skis 'gainst mine, up the hill then over?

Shoot, let's just be real men and rip some saplings from the ground and strap 'em to our feet. No prep work needed (nor ski brakes for that matter.)

Fascinating, except that in the United States, the government "specifies legal tender", but not "the owning thereof", of said currency- a private entity does. Just ask Bear Stearns!

Agree... More fascinating is that we the taxpayers are required to foot the bill for the massive corporate welfare contributions to ensure the profits of a failing enterprise, ensuring public moneys go to the pockets of fat cats, so they can ski for the rest of their lives... :-)

Yeah, I'm fairly conservative and couldn't help notice that one week the administration was saying 'we can't step in; let the free market work" and then when their big donors get in trouble over the weekend they're saying 'we had to step in to help the little guy'. Very convenient.

And I'm a liberal and noticed the same thing... The traditional definition of liberal vs. conservative is way off base... Bringing it back to skiing, it is related to the thread on the use of National Forest Land for private purposes. I can see a lease for a ski area, and everyone paying to use the improved facilities, but there needs to be free transit and the enjoyment of the national patrimony.

You know, Lou, I was as unhappy with the bailout as you and Clay until you mentioned that the fat cats will use the money to ski. If they're going to ski, then I think that was a commendable, noble, nay SAINTLY use of my tax money!!!

Hey, if the corporate feudal lords can ski at the taxpayers expense (business tax deduction), then we should make skiing deductions a part of the Revenue Code. Maybe it will rescue the industry

I'd happily trade the mortgage tax deduction for that one!

I always knew there was a tax and spend side to you...