JohnL et all I was worried about the "hijacking the thread" rule so I thought I'd start a new one. Question: what ski resorts- out west, overseas, or here at home- are overrated? Feel free to debate any suggestions made, just don't make the debate personal!

My vote: Jackson Hole. Round II:

Jacskon Hole is for sissies.

Just kidding.

Ok, here's where I was coming from: Jackson Hole has advanced terrain, but while some of their double diamonds are steeper than their blues and some of their single diamonds are worthy of recommendation (I'd suggest hitting Bivouac Woods and Bird-in-the-Hand as two very nice runs), it's nothing that you can't find at any other ski resort. Alta and Tower 3 chutes, Moran Face, Saratoga Bowl, these are standard blacks and double blacks for out west.

When you stake your reputation on something, you better deliver. JH doesn't in my opinion. I have routinely hit terrain as steep or steeper at other resorts who don't brag nearly as much about their expert terrain as JH does, and that's why I was and am disappointed in the mountain. Case in point: Winter Park in CO brags about it's mogul skiing on Mary Jane, and I'd say they have every right to. Their mogul runs are some of the best I've ever skied.

On the other hand, mountains that don't brag about stuff but deliver are even more worthy of praise. Northstar doesn't bellow about it's glade skiing, but it's phenomenal. And Alpine Meadows nearby ironically has some black diamonds that are steeper than their double-blacks, and both of which are steeper than JH. But Alpine advertises itself as a homely, family ski place, not as an expert hangout, and consequently when you find yourself rippin' on eight inches of fresh pow in the trees down a 45 degree line that's about fifteen or twenty feet wide, you're thinkin "NICE!!!"

So my opinion of JH is based on what it's reputation was all about, and frankly, I didn't think it lived up to it's reputation. Whistler lives up to it. Winter Park lives up to it. The snow in Utah is as legendary in person as it is in the legends. JH? Doesn't do it.

As far as cold goes- I stepped out of the tram on and was blown backward by a 70 mph wind; other locals assured me that was pretty typical January weather. The day before the wind was over 100 mph on the summit and still they ran the tram. There's not many mountains in the world where you expect to get knocked over by hurricane-force winds upon exiting the summit lift. The other consequence of this gentle breeze was that the fresh powder at the summit was windblown cement.

All this said, JohnL I respect your opinion too about JH. Just want to keep things lively!

I too was seriously disappointed with Jackson. I was only there one day, went in ignorance and did some stupid things. Friends say that it does not reveal its secrets easily and that I need to give it another chance. They claim that most of the good stuff is on the sides of ridges and in other places that can't be seen from a distance. Perhaps I will go back for another look but it raises the question, why bother when there are so many other great places in the west. On this trip we violated one of the cardinal rules; never leave good snow to find good snow.
http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9806&L=skivt-l&P=R6340&I=-3

Shoot, I've been called a lot worse than a sissy. Why not call me a gaper while your're at it?

Jackson Hole markets itself more as "the last remnants of the wild west" than it does as an extreme terrain mountain. IMHO, the reason that many skiers (and some ski writers) consider Jackson Hole an "experts" mountain is that Corbett's Couloir is located there, there is virtually no beginners terrain, and a lot of the black terrain is above the limits of intermediates who ski groomed runs. Both of my trips to Jackson were with mostly intermediate skiers, and they dismissed the mountain as being too hard or not having enough groomed trails.

To expect that the blacks and double blacks at Jackson Hole to be far tougher than any others out west is too high a standard. Also, have you skied any blacks and double blacks at Keystone, Vail, Breckenridge, Park City, Deer Valley, Heavenly, and even Northstar?

I also disagree with your assessment of Alta and Tower 3 Chutes.

I think why Alpine Meadows doesn't market itself as an advanced mountain is that they are afraid of scaring off intermediates and families, and it would be very difficult to compete with Squallywood one ridge over.

And as you're praising the bump runs at Mary Jane, be aware that I've heard that half of Outhouse may be groomed this year to allow intermediates better access to Mary Jane from Winter Park.

My post from the original thread:

On to Jackson Hole. I do think the expert terrain at Jackson is a bit overhyped compared to the terrain at other areas in North America. It can be an expensive place to stay and ski at, but it is certainly less than Vail, Aspen, etc. (I just checked the ticket prices for JH; the prices have gone up a lot since I was last there.) I don't think Jackson is any colder than any big mountain out west. From my experience, the snow is similar to Colorado snow. I don't see the comparison to the snow of the Pacific Northwest at all. Maybe Roger Z. hit some bad luck and caught some high moisture storms?


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Most of the advanced terrain isn't much steeper than their intermediate terrain, with a couple of obvious exceptions (Corbetts).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did that come out as you intended it?

Jackson Hole is a bit of a peculiar mountain in that as you are looking up the mountain from left to right, it consists of a series of ridges and gulleys coming straight at you down the mountain. A lot of the steep stuff flows from your right to left (or left to right) instead of straight at you. Hope this description makes sense to those who haven't been there. Some of the steep terrain is hidden in those ridges and may not be obvious that it exists. Jackson Hole Trail Map

That said, I can't see how someone wouldn't consider the following to not be steep: Tower Three Chutes, Alta Chutes, Expert Chutes, Bivouac, the Cirque area, the stuff above the Casper Traverse, the stuff around Cheyenne Bowl. It is certainly much steeper and tougher than the intermediate runs at JH. They certainly hold their own against advanced terrain elsewhere.

For most of the above mentioned trails, there is a lot of steep terrain in the adjacent woods. The Moran Face/Moran Woods area mentioned by Roy had some rocking terrain to play on. IMHO, it's some of the best on the mountain. It's not as steep as the rest of the expert terrain, but there are a couple of very short steep faces.

The Hobacks are certainly over-rated as expert terrain goes. They are nowhere near as steep as the ski mags make them out to be, they get a lot of skier traffic, and the combination of sun exposure and lower altitude makes for frequent challenging snow conditions.

Roger Z., opinions aren't right or wrong, they just are. I was a bit surprised that you didn't like the terrain at Jackson Hole.

Denis,

A couple of comments from your Jackson Hole report.

You won't find any real cowboys in the town of Jackson or any tourist town for that matter - too expensive. I suspect there are real cowboys in neighboring towns. There is an impressive array of wildlife between Jackson and Yellowstone - the Wild Elk refuge, long horn sheep, tons of moose, buffalo, etc.

Unless you are skiing Corbett's or want to do 4K vert laps, I'd avoid the tram for regular skiing. Rendezvous Bowl to the Hobacks really isn't all that challenging, and as I've stated on a previous post, the Hobacks can have some sketchy conditions. Plus, the tram normally has long lines. I don't think the Jackson Hole tram is any more of a cattle call than the Snowbird tram.

If you were skiing groomed runs, you probably weren't over the best terrain. A lot of the good ridge shots are pretty obvious from the Sublette and Thunder lifts.

If Targhee had bad conditions, you indeed had incredibly bad timing. Targhee/Jackson Hole seems to get early snow and is often better in January/February than in March.

I'm not saying Jackson Hole will be at the top of your list for expert terrain, but if you time it better, it will move up the list a lot more.

Also, do you have any links for trips to Taos? I was a bit disappointed in the mountain. I was sick during the trip, so I couldn't do much hiking. Would that have made a difference?

Thanks, John. I'm sure I will go back at some point; definitely after retirement when I have more time. I'd love to give it the careful look it deserves and would also love to do some of the delicious looking stuff in Teton Pass. We had plans to do this with Russell Rainey, the tele binding designer who lives in Wilson, but it turned out he was out of town. Avi danger has got to be pretty severe in there and without a local to go with me I probably wouldn't try it. Still every time you drive through the pass there are at least a dozen cars parked at various points. They tell me with 2 cars to shuttle you can get 2500 ft. descents from 500 ft. of climbing.

Killington is by far the most overrated resort on the East Coast. Killington's website says "world's most extensive snowmaking" If thats the case, they must not ever turn it on.

Ah shoot RZ, wha'dya trying to do, incite a riot?

of course JH is awesome but you have to ski down from the tram and GET OFF THE TRAIL, even the trail stuff is pretty good but there's not alot of really crazy stuff on trail really. Ok, so I wouldn't really know unless you count hobacks which was pretty hard but I skied down it so it can't be that hard.

Anyway, here's what it seemed to me. If you fall on a double-black diamond at JH you look likely to get hurt. I mean I didn't check every one. But many seemed to end in cliffs or other outcroppings, or certainly seemed ready to trap the unsuspecting ... "cliffed out" I think is the term. A little slip here, a little misstep there.. OUCH! The single blacks on the other hand meant a likely trundle in the snow and that's it...

JH seemed to have this in droves -- the stuff that you can really get hurt on kind of stuff, from under the tram and even around the other areas, the tree skiing also, and so on -- PPPPLLLENTY.

And let us not forget the out of bounds skiing they support and the inbound but NOT MARKED AS OFFICIAL trails areas...

There is so much, so much to slacken the mortal coil..

Ok so maybe these days there's a lot more of that everywhere ... I'd guess that's true.

Let's take Alta/Bird etc... they seemed to have a LOT of crazy stuff too, but JH seemed to just have more, or perhaps just the attitude to go with it. Still I think its earned.

I recall the ski patroller congratulating my friend on his ski down Corbets. Then he (seemed?) to casually mention the TRAIL BEHIND the tram, a double cliff jump that has to be landed "just right" if he was interested. Hmm, can't say I recall anyone speaking of such things elsewhere, although I am sure those in the know...

Then there's Whistler...

Steep ! Deep ! And I'm a man because I ski the steepest and deepest! And I drive a hummer! LOL!

Yeah I hear ya' .... you guys know I am weird but the fact of the matter is if you look around in the nooks in most western resorts you can find stuff just as steep and sweet as Corbett's. I know a little place at 99-ninety at The Canyons that is narrow and well past 45 degrees. Instead of rocks you have trees, but whatever ... you need to stay away from both of them! But everything has to have it's litmus test so I guess Jackson Hole is it for now ... unless you are comfortable with yourself and your skiing and don't have to prove anything ... just enjoy!

Steep, deep .. whatever. My favorite run BY FAR last year was the relatively easy stuff off of one side at Brighton. I think ... GASP .... there may even have been some blues on it. And I liked it why? Cause it had 2 ft of fresh fluffy powder and it was like skiing on a magic carpet ride. I mean just floating on along, no troubles, no worries -- what a buzz. So fine, could I have hiked all over tarnation and found another 1ft hanging off some hidden hideway back up some craggy peak? probably. But... wait, that does sound cool -- where is it again? You say there are 2 more ft, not just 1? Ok. Now how do you get there again? Uh--uh, take the first lift to the right up and then.. Yeah, and just behind the trees to the left, ok -- and then...

.. right on, cousin!

What's a trundle in the snow?

Is that something you see on CSI or on Cinemax?