I am a novice snowboarder. I ride on green trails only. I understand that part of skiing and riding is that people may run into you and I accept that. What has been bothering me is that I often see riders and skiers who are highly skilled using green trails as their own personal downhill ski course. I have been in VT and the Poconos in areas with large posted signs saying designated Slow Skiing areas but still riders and skiers shoot by straight down the trail at very high rates of speed. Look guys, If I was out slowly traversing a black diamond trail and you ran into me you would have a reason to gripe because I dont belong on black diamonds. So I dont think it is unreasonable for me to expect skilled riders and boarders to adhere to the code of responsibility by ridiing and skiing slowly in areas that are posted as slow ski areas. I also think it is a violation of the code to shoot straight down the center of a green trail because most novice riders and skiers have to traverse so the chances of running into someone is very high no matter how good you think you are.

Right on!

Now, if you could only convince all the testo-filled idjits out there who don't have a clue about personal responsibility (let alone reasonable behavior and civility), you could probably get nominated for Time Magazine's Man Of The Year award.

I have been skiing for 30 years. I ski fast when the conditions are right, and I think there has been only one time in 30 years that I have ever hit someone else, and that was at very low speed when a binding disintegrated on me and I found my foot suddenly free of the ski as I was skiing slowly into the lift line. My personal opinion is that the vast majority of collisions are entirely preventable (assuming that the people involved would have used their brains).

My experience is that truly good skiers don't derive any satisfaction whatsoever from using novices as human slalom poles. In my experience, the usual people that do so are 12-25 year old guys that just graduated into the ranks of the upper intermediates and have a perverted need to lord their new status over lesser skiers. I often have to ski with lower level skiers and am disgusted by how often I see this.

[/rantOff]

Tom / PM

PS - I really don't want to hear any of the usual arguments about how good skiers/boarders can be in complete control while skiing fast and coming close to slow skiers. Yeah, I can do that too, but it still sucks because it unnecessarily scares the bejusus out of the low level skier involved.

[/rantReallyOffNow]

I found it interesting that on the first day of Safety Awareness Week I was run over 2 different times and sandwiched once. It was so bad I quit for the day and swore never to go back to whitetail.

do you HONESTLY believe that you should be able to get uncrowded conditions on a weekend during the day??? it just wont happen unless conditons are crappy (ie rain). whitetail, liberty and roundtop are nowhere near big enough to handle the crowds they get on decent weekends especially after some natural snow falls. there are always little niches where you can get away, but my advise is to alter your schedule. get up early and arrive at 7:30. you'll be 100 percent ready when the lifts open and have an hour at least of uncrowded slopes. take a mental health day from work and go mid-week. it will practically deserted. if youre a beginner or intermediate, up your skill level and ride the harder slopes that are typically less crowded. if you get a little natural, dont assume your going to get powder and rush out. natural really doenst make it better since its groomed anyway. for smoe reason many MD folks think it will be better because of some natural and rush out only to find insanely crowded slopes that are no better than a good manmade day.

finsoutoc is right. Hard to avoid folks with high weekend crowds. That said, there is still no excuse for people running into each other. If you see it as a real problem, let the area ski patrol know. I know that Liberty has been actively policing the slopes this year, especially on weekends. May be hard to see the patrollers as they wear red jackets now that tend to blend in, but they are out there . . .

another little hint is to just go off on the person. its a crude but effetive and usually works. it sucks that you have to but it does work and im not one to get ski patrol involved with someting that petty when they usually have lots of injuries on those days. plus my experience is that most (but not all) ski patrollers at liberty or roundtop are pretty much anti-snowboarder.

finsoutoc & Jim are absolutely right about going mid-week to avoid crowds and problems. If you can get away, its a great workaround.

Fewer people does mean fewer collisions and near misses, but I would argue that for those that can't go midweek, people *can* ski in surprisingly crowded conditions and not cause collisions IF they are willing to go slow enough, wait for breaks in traffic, etc. The problem is that there are always some self-centered bad apples who think they should not have to do this, and so they rip at the same speed no matter whats going on around them.

I have absolutely no problem with low level riders/skiers who occasionally contact me (especially getting off/on the lifts), run over my skis, etc. Its the people that are reasonably skillful but are obviously reckless and have a bad attitude that I stop. The beginners usually have no bad attitude, often are having a hard time just standing up on their equipment, and rarely get up enough speed to injure anyone.

As finsoutoc pointed out, getting in the face of the reckless skiers/boarders is crude but DOES indeed work. OTOH, you better be absolutely sure that (1) you are at least as good a skier/boarder (so they can't just tell you to f*** off and leave you in the dust as many have tried to do to me), and (2) you are ready for a potential fight with the guy. I have had to get in the face of reckless young guys more times than I care to remember, and have not had one even talk back let alone pick a fight. Its classic "bully behavior" - don't act vulnerable and they instantly back off.

Tom / PM

As someone who is just graduating from green to blue trails, my guess has been that a large percentage of the idiots who ski straight down the center of the trail aren't any more skilled than I am. They're just more willing to ski recklessly.

On the flip side of things, of course, are those who sit on their butt in the center of the trail. (I'm not talking about those who land there and then get up.)

I agree with all of you. Now can someone convince my wife that Sat and Sunday and the worse days to ski? I've got a sweet enough set up for work. I work at home and my boss knows that during the week I'm taking my days off to ski. However, my wife will not learn this lesson and insists on working Mon-Fri.

As far as getting in someone's face, one of my best friends I ski with is a complete a**hole. He's my friend so I can say that about him. He takes that attitude to get in someone's face and yell at them. He's chased quite a few boarder's (very anti-boarder) down the mountain to get in their face. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen in my life to have adults standing in the middle of the slopes or at lift lines yelling and screaming at each other. And when it's all said and done, nothing has changed for either (he's been lucky no one has thrown a puch at him. He's a pretty scrawny guy and weighs 120 lbs soaking wet).

I figure for the real jerks, fate comes back and gets them in the end. My friend (remember he's an a**hole) has been granted the nickname snowmelter. He spent a winter in Jackson Hole when they had the smallest snowfall in over 15 years. He's had many out west trips where he's skied crud. Only in the last few years when he's joined another group I ski with, has he enjoyed powder conditions (because he's skiing with una**hole people).

Fate is the factor that evens out all the world. And I've discovered that Ullr is one of the Fates.

well roy, just take her up to roundtop on a saturday at about 11:00 when all the princeton ski club buses are there (around 15 buses i think)that will cure her real fast. as far as getting uppity, im usually pretty mellow and generally use the 3 strikes policy (first im nice then the hostility goes up for repeat offenders). your buddy sounds like fun. ive had to deal with a few of those types before. sounds like hes got that short guy syndrome. well, im 6 1 175 (plus a redneck) and could cure him pretty quickly.

One thing I really can't stand is the stupid division of skiiers and snowboarders. People really have to get over themselves. Personally I don't care how you choose to descend as long as it plants a big smile across your face. Leave your attitude at home and just come have some fun. Being a snowboarder does not give me a licence to be an a**hole nor does it allow me to forget common sense and a bit of simple decency and the same goes for skiers.

From talking to students, mostly intermediate and below, the primary cause of snowboarder dislike is quite simple: you can hear a bad snowboarder behind you because of the loud scraping sound...

total cop out. i can hear bad skiers too. the facts are that SOME skiers just cant stand snowboarders. I think its mostly a case where SOME older folks just cant stand young people and they perceive snowboarders to be young, sooooo, they hate snowboarders. in addition, all our truly local areas (roundtop, liberty, whitetail) cram so many beginners on the learning slopes you cant help but feel like a deer in the headlights. for those who hate snowboaders think about this, prior to the snowboarding boom, most of our local resorts were in major financial trouble because skiing was on the decline. when snowboarding hit, it was the income source they needed to stay afloat and then expand. the fact that youre skiing around here at all in 2002 is mostly due to the extra income brought in by snowboarders.

Just how do you "hear" skiiers. Maybe if they're side-slipping all the way down which is rare, though the norm for snowboarders. Next time you see a bunch of idiots on their butts blocking the middle of a trail, count how many are skiers just sitting down right in the middle for a break, and how many are idiots (opps) I mean boarders. Got that count yet?

all you have to do is hit minuteman at roundtop on any given weekend, or better yet, a more difficult trail and you can see and hear both skiers and snowboarders. the reason is that they are ALL (the'problem people') where they dont belong for their skill level. skiers typically dont sit in a trail agreed, but they sure do stand there. it all boils down to common sense on everybodys part so dont get into a mindset where its one group or the other. we can all sit around our keyboards all day and come up with reasons why one group sucks. hell, i can come up with 10 things right now why snowboarders piss me off and i ride every day. the thing is there are groups of small minded people who simply hate the other group because they are different or taking up 'their' space. alot of it grows out of way too crowded conditions and also the fact that some people are just dicks.

The fault lies in lack of consideration for your fellow person, not in whether you happen to be a boarder or skier. I ski, but I strongly believe that we should all -- all -- be able to enjoy ourselves while being considerate of others.

Yes, it is absolutely irritating, unsafe, and incredibly inconsiderate to have a bunch of boarders line up side by side obstructing a trail. But the same lack of consideration and lack of safety can bee seen by a group of snowplowers, who have no business being on a black run, becoming a safety hazard as other people, going at the speed that would be considered normal on a black run, round a blind curve and encounter these nice folk doing yard sales all over the steeps.

Up to a point, consideration and ski/board ettiquette can be taught and it should be done so a lot more than it is right now. It should be a part of the "syllabus" of every ski lesson. Unfortunately, not many instructors, whether ski or board, do so.

On the other hand, the ski responsibilty code is something that can and should be enforced. Beginning with clipped tickets and ending with tort and criminal penalties.

Last year, I was thrilled at the guilty verdict of an out-of-control skier (Note: this individual was NOT a snowboarder) who literally murdered someone on a slope. No excuses. We are all responsible for our actions. And I would hope that ski areas become more intolerant of out-of-control and reckless snow-persons.

And Rich, I agree you and your fellow snowboarders have the right to enjoy yourselves in the same way that a skier of whatever you happen to wear on your feet happens to be. Any sensible person would recognize the positive impact of the boarding community on the snow industry. But you're coping out too when you attribute that to the fact that older folk dislike younger folk. That may be true in some cases but no more than younger folk disliking older folks and wishing they were dead... What you can indeed correlate is that yes, most boarders are young, and yes, many of them do not have the best manners nor practice good ettiquette.

Next time you're in the slopes and you can stop your fellow boarders from spreading on a line that obstructs the entire trail, it would be an awesome thing you could do...

Lou

[This message has been edited by lbotta (edited 02-01-2002).]

Otto's not kidding on that last sentence. I've had to scrap up what was left of people sitting in troughs on lower Eastwind.

Lots of good points made here. Above all, consideration towards your fellow wintersports enthusiast. The first rule of the Responsibility Code is to always ski/ride in control. I can't tell you how many skiers AND boarders have claimed to be in control after a collision. If you're in control, a collision is nearly impossible.

BTW - ALL of the Snowtime areas are doing active policing of the slopes this year in response to out-of-control skiers AND boarders. If you're having a problem, don't be afraid to let the area know.

finsoutoc:

Call it a "cop out" or not, I am just telling it like it is. I can't imagine why people would lie to their ski instructor about what makes them apprehensive...

I have no ill will toward snowboarders. In fact, I appreciate every snowboarder and the money they bring to the mountain. It is not an overstatement to say that snowboarding has been a major boon to the industry and may have "saved" it.

As far as perception v. reality is concerned, ski instructors are prime targets for idiots since we often need to use wide moderately sloped terrain. Standing in front of a group or doing slow traverses, I get hit an average of once a year. I rarely hear or see the person who hits me (often a self-described "expert"). My memorable hits and near misses are equally divided between boarders and skiers, although my most memorable wallop was from a boarder.

The common element is that most projectiles are males between 12 and 25.

Two ideas to add here:

The uphill skier is responsible for avoiding the downhill skier, even if the downhill skier is doing a slow traverse.

If you stop or choose to do a slow traverse or stand or sit, THINK about where you have stopped or are traversing. Don't do these things where the uphill skier can't see you until they are right on top of you. Remember that you may be less visible than you think in bumps, and if you are on a board, please don't sit down in a bump field on the backside of a bump, even if there is a juicy launch ramp downhill. In particular, don't do the latter on the bottom of Lower Eastwind at Liberty between noon and 7 pm on weekends unless you enjoy the thought of eating a pair of K2's with 230 pounds of Otto on top of them.

[This message has been edited by Otto (edited 02-02-2002).]

Wise words from Ibotta, Otto, and Jim. I've found a solution. I'm moving out west and staying in the glades. It's always safer in there.

otto--i think you hit it about right. the problem has nothing to do with one group or the other but rather, people who think their ability is much better then it actually is. your age group is pretty close too but i wouldnt even put it to an age since ive been hit by just about any age. i guess the trick around here is to use local knowledge to avoid problems. go out early, during the week, etc to avoid the heavy crowds. i only ride halfpipe anymore since its a much more controlled, closed environment that allows you to address an out of control skier/rider issue personally with the culprit. as to snowtime actively enforcing out of control issue--unfortunately, at roundtop ive seen way too much 'policing' from a FEW patrollers who would rather show how much power they have then actually address the real problem. in fact i have yet to see someone pulled aside and politely told that maybe their skill level isnt right for the slope they are on. ive always maintained that patrollers really shouldnt be enforcers and i think the best patrollers (from the ones i know) are the ones who avoid playing 'snow cop'.

Roy, good luck out West... just remember that the most recent and celebrated case of ski death and the conviction of the young reckless skier DID happen in Colorado...

And just this December, as I was on my way to the Far East, I stopped in San Fran for a week and they had the case of not one, but two people, dying on the slopes in the Tahoe area after being out of control and running into trees. Well... better than them running into people....

Lou

Actually Lou the dream out west is for snow more than responsible skiers. I'm in Dallas and they almost had more snow Tuesday than Liberty had all year. Scary

Lou...don't confuse me with snowboarders. I don't want to snowboard...it would mean a whole new wardrobe !!! I don't care to sit on my butt in the cold wet snow. Though I guess they find it comforting...that whole snowboarder/hemorrhoid thing...

hey rich, you think ross powers, danny kass, jj thomas or kelly clark sit on their butts? where are all the ski team medals? im rolling with laughter.

Oh...those are the guys blocking the trails all the time. Funny, they look so young in person! Also funny they'd snowboard at Whitetail so much.

Rich would love to take a break and sit down but the pole up his arse is holding him back.

what is funny is that danny kass used to ride roundtop quite a bit when he was younger. so did keir dillon another top pro and colin lentz.

I was at Whitetail yesterday and saw absolutely no ski patrol presence. Well, I did see one ski patrol member snowboarding, but he wisely waited until late in the day when most of the people had left.

I guess throwing people off the slopes for being reckless doesn't endear you to enough of the customers to be worthwhile. Literally every time I went down the green slope (can't remember the name) I came close to getting hit several times. At least it prompts me to learn to ski the blues. I had a much harder time there, but even the other skiers (and snowboarders) who were having trouble there remained in control.

I think the most ridiculous incident was when I was nearly hit by a kid who slid into the big orange "Slow" sign. His friend said, "I love it when he does that," and my girlfriend said he appeared to be in control the entire time -- he just aimed right for the sign.

Or the kid who almost hit me (most of these avoided being collisions by my swerving to avoid someone sliding into me) and then declared, "I hate avoiding other people; I'd rather they get hurt than I do."

What a zoo.

and this surprises you why?? i've said it a dozen times in this thread ' you can't expect to go to a snowtime mt during a hoiday, peak time and not have this happen'. you just wont be able to get away from it, period, so change your schedule. as for patrollers, they cant be busting every body, and on greens they will be alot more lenient on beginners.

Seen at RSA. I don't care for this at all.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/den/news/stories/news-124543720020221-070240.html

>>
Vail Investigates 'Slope Rage' Incident
Skier Attacked By Snowboarders
Posted: 6:42 a.m. MST February 21, 2002
Updated: 3:49 p.m. MST February 21, 2002

VAIL, Colo. -- Authorities were looking for four snowboarders who allegedly bloodied a skier on Vail Mountain in what has been described as a case of "slope rage."

A 27-year-old man from nearby Avon, Colo., said he was attacked Feb. 10 by four men, who were estimated to be about 20 to 25 years old, after he warned them they were not properly equipped to ride out of the Vail Mountain boundaries, said Eagle County sheriff's Deputy Heath Mosness.

"He told the guys not to come skiing in the backcountry without proper equipment. Then one of the guys tackled him and the fight was on," Mosness said.

The snowboarders allegedly used the skier's pole as a whip, bruising the man and severely blackening his eye, Mosness said.

A woman skiing with the victim tried to break up the fight, but she was frightened for her own safety, he said.

The skier was so badly beaten that the snowboarders could be charged with felony assault, Mosness said.
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snowboarders