I was told this morning that an announcement about
the sale of Hidden Valley may come out Monday the 14th.
Info from Park city/ somerset / rumor mill at HV.

imp

Wow, that'll be interesting.

whoa hold on there cowboy - i thought this rumor of Talisker (owners of Canyons) was just that and was put to bed. Again with this mishegoss ?!

Details please....Rumors are just that, rumors.

Rumors floated around about for a while that 7S was for sale but were nixed (sadly). However, unlike a lot of wishers and hopers (employees and patrons alike) that Nutting would opt of the ski business, Buncher has mostly fostered good will amongst everybody.
Won't have to wait long to see if this is a falsie or not.

If that rumor is true it would be great for skiing around here. It would bring some money and knowledge to the resort that hasn't been there before and put 7 Springs in its place.

Unless they have plans to pile 2,000 feet of dirt on top of the current land that is HV, I dont see how things could get better. I could only see it turn into a giant advertising campaign to bring more people in, maybe with them opening a few more slopes on the north summit area with a 300' MAX vert. Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Good for homeowners potentially. Unless of course, their sole purpose for ownership was to enjoy the rather laid back way that is HV currently

Supposed that HV was sold and the buyer also bought Seven Springs and wanted to get Laurel open?!!
The Colonel

Sincraft - are you the "son of Mountain Masher". You definintly see the glass 1/2 empty or maybe even 2/3 empty. The same could be said for any mountain around here as far as vertical drop.ZZZZZZZZ. That said, we make do with what the Great Spirit has given us. You could live in some place like Texas or Alabama where you're a long way from skiing. There is alot more than 300 feet of vertical on the proposed new slopes. Check out terrain mapping.

New owners could be a good or bad thing. Vail Resorts recently purchased several small (relatively speaking) Mid-Western resorts. It surprised me that they would be interested in these resorts. Talisker, who own the The Canyons as well as other ski areas, was reportedly shopping on the east coast. Either one of these two owners I believe would be a positive benefit to HV. Buncher has done a good job overall but they really are not in the resort business. They are real estate developers for primarilly commercial real estate. They have two properties in their "Hospitality Group" - HV and a hotel in Pittsburgh. Thus, a company who's primary focus is running ski resorts could be beneficial to home owner's and skiers alike.

Well, it is Monday the 14th, and have not seen any announcement. Does anyone have any mpre information or should this be tossed onto the rumor pile?

BTW agree with Snowsmith; You can't make the midatlantic mountains any bigger than they are, but there is still plenty of room for improvement that a world class resort developer could provide. While the mountians of the west will always be higher, a key advantage of Laurel Highlands is that it is a reasonable driving distance for many more people, including some of the wealthiest parts of the US. That could be very attractive for an investor/developer with some vision, especially as it relates to the 2nd home market. (look at recent WISP sale)

So rather than the need to dump more dirt on the local hills to add verticle to compete with the western resorts, believe that west would need to come up some sort of jetpack that bypasses airport security to transport a family of 4 with all their baggage to Utah within 3 hours on $40 in gas to compete. My point is that they both have advantages.

The large resorts are very, very dependent on local hills to introduce newcomers to the sport and keep them interested so they can in-turn spend money on trips. For every first timer to the sport, only a small percent become ongoing return "customers" (perhaps 10%). In industry terms, this is termed "conversion". Snowtime won the National award from the National Ski Area Association on this metric recently.

Can't say I was aware Vail had expanded their portfolio by purchasing local hills, but makes sense for them to have interest in 'feeder' hills. I don't think any of them are looking at real estate potential as the primary driver... There's a lot of competition elsewhere in that arena. ..just my sense and two bits.

I hope this DOES NOT HAPPEN.

[url=Hidden Valley Article]http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...-valley-670368/[/url]

Definitely bad (potential) news in my opinion. Horizontal mergers/acquisitions don't happen to the benefit of the customer. We can look to Laurel Mt for clues as to what his intentions might be.

Too bad it wasn't Buncher expressing an interest in purchasing 7S. Let's hope someone else is bidding on HV, if in fact it is for sale. If so, surely Alligator Arms Nutting will be the low bidder.

I have to disagree with you, Dave. Buncher has made some great improvements to HV, but they aren't even in the same league as Nutting. 7 Springs has grown with amenities, they have improved the overall appearance and feel of the resort and they are moving forward with more Southwind units. I can't say that Buncher has even come close to these types of improvements, basically in the same period of time. Yes, The Buncher group has improved critical parts of the resort with snowmaking and the condition of the golf course, but everything else seems to be a "band-aid" type of fix. There still isn't a food establishment that you can even consider visiting on a regular basis and if you don't golf or ski, you are pretty much a bored person at Hidden Valley. Just in case you are wondering, I don't own property at 7 Springs, but do have property at HV.

ha ha ha stupid - so AGAIN it was all mishegoss b.s. dcski crap. sorry Scott you can censor as much as you have in the past but again eeesh. i may be off the wall but grrrr whatever you micro-manage you moderation and - ok stop E- just stop.

THE END

(lol again)

Actually, if I can take liberty and attempt to interpret your usual unintelligible ramblings, Imp was not far off the mark. Larry Walsh is a very well known and respected reporter who would not report a rumor in the PPG if there wasn't some substance to it. My guess is something will happen or be announced very soon.

I have to agree that there must be some suitors. I can't speculate as to how any purchaser would utilize it after buying hv but I must agree it doesn't seem like their heart is in it as much as it was at the beginning. I think they are a good real estate development company that expects a better than they are getting ROI. They have put out a good deal of money and are at a point where they must decide to invest more and potentially lose more or invest and bet on being able to sell the real estate for a large gain. I think they in a sense are deferring to an expert. If I were them and someone really wanted what I had I may rethink if I was utilizing it properly. If there is no interest I would maybe cut my losses. The real estate will not sell without expansion and additional investment. 7 sp is a natural choice. They know the market and could actually use a family resort to balance the atmosphere at the current resort. They are maligned for their practices but they have a crowded resort all year round and that equals success. I think the entry cost of buying HV is high enough to calm any fear of shelving the resort.


Here may be why buncher is looking at selling the resort, to concentrate on a larger project.

http://triblive.com/news/adminpage/3226630-74/buncher-strip-district#axzz2I0EE7bDo

For $19.99 (plus shipping and handling), I'll sell you a Crush-to-English translator, new and improved version. With a complimentary video, narrated by Jimmy.

What was the Jimmi Laugh he used to post..Bow Wahhhhh!!..or something like that...A little of the Ole School DCski still lives on!!...LOL..

Very Funny JohnL

Here is a link to the latest PPG article.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...-valley-670368/

More interesting than the article are the comments below the article; shows how much respect Bobby has in the Burgh.

Assuming doomsday scenario and Nutting does buy HV, what becomes of Bobby's red headed stepchild (Laurel)?

Some of my favorites:

Well, the news is clearly out there (PPG) and no denial from Buncher tells me that something is up.

This could be good news or bad news. Here are the pros and cons:
PROS
- perhaps improved restuarants, food and facilities
- may be able to move ahead with the slope expansion
- Joint use season pass; HV, 7S and Laurel(someday)
- more activities
- new owner will be an avid skier; Bunchers do not ski
CONS
- land development at 7S has poor land planning; hope they don't bring that along
- Poor record with Laurel Mountain may be a sign of how HV will be treated
- eliminates competitionm, thus they can set the price where they want
- Camo wearing Yinzer snow boarders from 7S may invade HV
- High priced food;
- investment in improved ski area facilities needs to be shared by 3 resorts
- Scott Bender will most likely leave

Agree that something must be up due to no denials. Hope that the Nutting rumor is based on his reaction to another, well respected outside suiter looking to acquire HV and enter the market....sort of like he all of a sudden became interested in Laurel when Buncher had a deal in the works. Believe that would be a better outcome.

Keep in mind that there have been rumors of Nutting looking to sell as well last year, which are likely not entirely without merit. I am not so sure either Nutting or Bunchers are in this for the long term, both having entered the market just to see the economy and real estate tank. Nutting might even view 7S as more salable asset to a major player if combined with HV?

If you put together 7S and HV and throw in Laurel, wonder, where that would rank the combined resort in terms of total trails/lifts, acerage? It would certainly have to be right up there in terms of size on the east if promoted as such with combined ticket.

Wisp was also on the Nutting rumor mill as well in the past year. That turned out to be a false rumor so who knows.

I believe it was confirmed that Nutting was in the running for acquiring Wisp's assets suring the bankruptcy sale.

It somewhat surprises me since he is in the publishing business which from what I understand, is not exactly a growth market.

This story has now been denied on local tv station wpxi.
It was just a reading from the newscaster, no interview.
denial was from the springs.
imp

uh...cons - all prices will go up. Quality will go down. Crowds will go up. Snowmaking equipment at HV will be moved to 7Springs .

Most official denial I have seen:

Daily American Article

Hey Leo. I noticed in the article that the compliments traveled on a one way street.

From what the employees of Hidden Valley were saying last weekend, this is a done deal. Note Scott Bender wouldn't even comment on it.

You're not just horsing around with us?

Jimmy, I am not giving you the run around.

this is just going around in circles

A reasonably credible source I know says that something is going on...continued lack of denial from Buncher leads me to believe this is true.

Here is the lastest unsubstantiated info that I heard this past weekend:

- Two groups in the running; one from Colorado and the other is Nutting
- We should have news by month's end

Add that to the rumor pile.

Interesting article with some additional insight on what Buncher is all about....

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...it-away-673217/

I was hoping that once the ski season ended that there would be some announcements of future direction, either a purchase or plans for terrain expansion for next year, but all seems quiet.

Have noticed that there is lots of heavy excavation equipment cutting a road off of Jimtown Road into the former game preserve and proposed Paradise Springs Development area, so something seems to be going on there.

Rumors I have heard was that the big western ski developer and operator was looking at both Seven Springs and Hidden Valley and what it would take to tie them together in some respect, and had been in contact with the State for possible right of way through the forest area. Again, just rumors, and even if it was batted around perhaps all parties could not agree.

I use to say anyone but nutting, but after checking out Vail webcams, it looks like they are just as bad. Wall to wall snow and no lifts running. Closed last week when it was wall to wall then received a foot of new snow this week. Abasin and loveland still running. I guess some areas set a date to close regardless of conditions. Maybe it might be a "be careful for what you wish for" moment.

Heard, from 2 different sources, its a done deal. HV is sold.

To who?

Not aware of Vail having anything to do with it. Rumor was group from eht west was Talasker, who owns The Canyons as well as lots of development in Deer Valley.

7S and HV, or just HV?

A veteren reporter called HV and asked the top guy if the resort has been sold and the response was they could not comment on the sale.

I understand the road construction is taking place because they received a grant from the State for this work ( I assume because they built Bakersville a brand new $1.0 million fire house). I have been told the date for sale completion is May 1. These things are never completed on schedule ( too many lawyers) so don't expect to learn anything soon.I understand that they may be just selling the resort facilities and not the large tracks of developable land.

Vail's closing date is mandated by the state of Colorado. They are not allowed to operate because their slopes are located on state land. By the way, comparing 7 springs to Vail in any way is just ridiculous. Furthermore, look at 7 Springs today vs. 7 years ago. Every part of the resort has been upgraded and enhanced.

Lots of western resorts must adhere to Forest service rules as to when they have to reduce ops or close...Alta for example.
The Colonel

Vail is open this weekend. Alta is as well. Snowbird will probably be open until the end of May. I guess Snowbird is not on public land?

I didn't want to resurrect this thread in mid-March with no "real" update, but an overly talkative employee the weekend of the spring carnival told me that she was being told a sale was imminent and that it was the resort that would be sold and therefore operated by someone else. As far as she knew, Buncher intended to maintain ownership of Paradise Springs and develop the land, which is more in line with their core business. She also told me it was not Nutting.

Assuming there is truth to this, it'll be interesting to see who it is.

Snowtime?

How about the company that just purchased Wisp. They operate many ski areas.

...maybe Timberline made the purchase, afterall they are looking to hire a lobyist...

The latest from the rumor mill:

A letter was sent to the Hidden Valley Foundation indicating the sale was happening

A company from Chicago is supposedly the suitor.

Mid- May settlement.

Chicago?? Hmmm...would have no idea who that would be, and it doesn't sync with any prior rumors. I must say, they really are keeping a tight lid on things to the degree they can.

Aspen - the Aspen Skiing Company is currently owned by the Crown family of Chicago.

Any news?

Diddleysquat

Actually, found something very interesting online. Seems to jive with everything that's been said

Not sharing the rumor? What fun is that?

Not funny...give it up.

When I was there last week I heard 2 different rumors from sources who claimed to know what was going on.

One was that it is down to 2 suiters; One being the Canyons group rumored earlier, and the other being a local company, but not not Nutting.

The other rumor was that a deal is in place, pending working out the closing details, and that the plans included building a water park.

If you recall a few years back, there was a group looking to build a water park in Somerset, but that never materialized. Also the developer of Pittsburgh Mills mall was to build a Great Wolf park by the mall, but that has been on hold. Have no idea if there is any connection, but would not be surprised.

My impression was that something is in the works, but those who truely know are not talking, and those who are talking don't truely know.

You should make that your signature line Edgar - truly

Ah recall this:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...-valley-511031/

Jack Johnson is a major architectural firm in Park City, and in fact has worked with Talisker on a number of projects including several at Canyons (seriously, that rendering looks like the freakin' base of Canyons). They may have got wind of Hidden Valley through that connection - that is what never jived with me is how they would even know about a place like Hidden Valley. I mean Talisker develops in Deer Valley, Canyons, etc . Hmmm maybe ....

The Jack Johnson company that did Bunchers design work went out of business a couple years ago.
there are still some of their people in the industry.

imp

dood - Talisker bought The Canyons in 2008 and was a good buddy with Jack Johnson during the 2009-2010 build-up at The Canyons (Jack J re-built Red Pines Lodge blah blah designed basically all the stuff off the village pre-Talisker). In 2010 Jack Johnson ran into some problems mostly due to over-extending themselves (actually they still are over in Sun Peak one exit before my place on Canyons Resort Dr) but i still really have a hard time believing Talisker is looking at HV - too busy fighting for the stupid SkiLink between Canyons and Solitude or trying to torpedo Park City Mountain Resort (the chowder-heads deserve it) i figure lol ...

So for the first time, I think ever, HV at least answered a question about the rumors on their own FB page by basically saying "we're not aware of any rumors and still owned by Buncher."

I'm not sure how much this clarifies anything, though. To me, it could be that none of the rumors are true, or it could be like when an NFL GM says "coach ______ has our confidence" and then the next morning they fire him.

But I did find it interesting that they finally at least answered a post that was asking about it. In the past they've just ignored those types of posts.

Thru dumb luck, I found a confidential doc outlining the purchase of HV online. The site is secure now and can only be accessed with a password. Last year at this time they had all the snow machines covered and jumps put away. Nothing has been done yet. I thought the denial was weak at best. (You know they've heard the rumors). Why they are being so secretive is beyond me. I guess only they know that.

Typically, for large business deals such as this, the parites sign a confidentially agreement. Otherwise it could be a negotiating nightmare and public relations fiasco.

What did the document you read say. Spill the beans!

what is the URL ? I might be able to SQL-inject it and get in ....

The document was detailed but I'm not comfortable divulging it. Wouldn't want to jeopardize anything but Edgar had alot right

So we're going to have a water park?

Water parks, mountain coaster, zip lines, additional slopes and golf holes, branded hotels & amenities, whatever.......

Buncher came in with grandiose plans as well, most of which never came to fruition. However, what we did get from Buncher vastly improved the Resort and we are fortunate that they came along when they did.

Any new owner will likely (or should I say hopefully) come in with BIG plans as well. Whether or not they ultimately achieve all they set out to, who knows. I just hope they come in with an initial 'pot' of $$$'s to give us some significant, immediate improvements (the new slopes would be nice).

hmmm makes me start thinking paraniod-like again .... ok so waterparks, like Idlewild and Soak Zone nearby are operated by Palace Entertainment, the US subsidiary of Parques Reunidos ... which has an association with Intrawest ... Intrawest bought and owns the Vernon Valley/Great Gorge ski area, and leases land for a water part to Palace Entertainment.

... soooo Intrawest? lol

The rumor was of 2 interested parties, and would suspect that the waterpark plan might be the "local company", rather than the Park City connection. Not that I know anything, but would find it harder to believe that the Park City skiing centric company would be looking to do a waterpark in the east, while there had been several other local companies looking to do a waterpark in Southeastern PA.

Palace Entertainment seems to operate only outdoor waterparks, and with one so close at Idlewild, would find it hard to believe that they would open another outdoor park in the general area, but who knows. Idlewild and HV have cooperated on marketing, and if they did an all year indoor park and combine it with the ski business that might make some sense.

Think indoor water park like the Pump House at Jay Peak

yah - log flume down Jaguar lol

Massanutten has done well with the indoor/outdoor water park that was opened around 2005. Indoor section is open all year. Connected outdoor section open during the summer season. Definitely been a draw for my daughter. A lot of families going for a weekend spend one evening at the waterpark after skiing during the day.

Latest info from a Hidden Valley local handyman.
Alpine leisure properties purchasing for 13 mil, with
7 yr upgrade plan.
this is I believe a group that exists only for this project.
once again there are some deep pocketed hv homeowners involved and a shyster lawyer.

imp

Hidden Valley Foundation says sale to close this or next Friday, Alpine Leisure properties is a new Pittsburgh division of a Chicago company of supposedly same name.
Water park and new hotels are supposed to be part of the development.
If you look around there seems to be a link to another new
Pittsburgh company with an address in the buncher building!!
imp

clearly using Adobe Biz Catalyst - the admin page is here (tried some basic stuff but seems tight):

http://alpsppm.businesscatalyst.com/admin/Index.aspx

well if the are using Bc don't expect a lot from them - poor Hidden Valley ...

The fact that there is an address listed in the Buncher building has me wondering if Buncher will still have some involvement? Had heard rumor that a sale may be just for the resort,and Buncher may hold on to the neighboring developable Paradise Springs Property. Have also noticed that they have an excavation company with heavy equipment making a road into that property, which may indicate that they are moving their focus there.

I simply hope that whatever happens, that the new owner will have both the vision and financial resources to carry out the vision. Am skeptical of new entities vs well known resort operators that were also rumored to be interested, but if Buncher were to keep the neighboring property and really want to develop it, then they should be well motivated to make certain HV ends up in the right hands.

Purely speculation....think, maybe, of a Management Buyout facilitated by Buncher? I do not in any way believe that current management would have the resources for a buyout nor do I personally believe that there are nearly enough interested 'deep pocket' homeowners to pull this off. Therefore, there would have to be some (non-HV) 'deep pockets' backing the deal or Buncher would have to be backing/financing the deal???

It is also surprising that Buncher would be willing to unload HV for $13m when that is what they paid for it and put in probably another $10m thereafter?

Look up world property company and kronos int investment

Notice the reference to EB5 money on the Kronos web site. This is the program that Jay Peak used to get hundreds of millions of investment dollars to build hotels and a water park.
This story has international intrigue . It looks like the same people are involved in all of these companies.

The speculation is that the deal will close on Friday.

This video about Jay Peak looks like a playbook for HV:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/31/us/31vermont.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I suspect this fellow Eric Mungai might be a player in the HV sale. Check out his biosketch.

http://www.worldpropertycompany.com/#!our-team/c20r9

Did I mention the shyster used to be on the HV ski school for years.
imp

Good news is that he is a skier. Most of the Buncher's don't ski.
What is the definition of a shyster? Is that a Yiddish word? Or just another description for a lawyer?

A look at the World Properties & Kronos web sites is a bit disconcerting in that they are purely 'generic' with no substance whatsoever. However, this must be related to HV especially given the references to ski resort projects, projects in PA and the individual EM who has been associated with HV Ski School for a long time. But, anybody ever hear of the principals in these orgs.: Vince Coviello, & Martin Tindall?? It seems that is where the 'power' will be.

Imp, could you please enlighten me on how you can call someone a shyster when they are taking a huge financial risk that may reward you? I assume you are a homeowner and have property close to the Imperial slope, If that is true, your property value should increase dramatically once the resort is upgraded. We both know there haven't been many homes selling in that section of HV.

I have known him for over 20 years.
I am not a hv homeowner.
Eric is a good guy, and a better salesman.
I wish them the best possible outcome,
imp

HV lacks vert horribly. They should turn the whole thing into a snowboard park. Thats the only thing that could utilize a short vert and still drawn in massive crowds. Imagine 3 halfpipes, beginner to superpipe. Jumps all over. Features galore! And continental for all the yinzers in Stillers jackets and $1200 skis.

Any new news?

I would imgine it is either the lawyers or the bankers that are holding things up at this point. They need to get the money to close the deal. No money, no deal.

Sincraft - what ski area in the Mid-Atlantic doesn't lack vertical. Most of our ski area have under 1,000 feet of vertical. We have two runs at Snowshoe with more than 1,000 feet of vertical.

seems Buncher put out a 120 page financial report last week
that the investors weren't expecting and it will take some time to digest.
would not be the first time financial reality gummed up the works.
imp

Shame on the investors then, if they waited until this late in the process (actually long past the 'rumored' closing date!) to conduct their due diligence. They should have had detailed financials with regular updates throughout the negotiations. Just another reason to be concerned regarding this Groups ability to succeed with the acquisition and subsequent operation of HV.

It's my guess (purely a guess) that 'this' investor Group is on their last straw and then HV goes to Nutting.

I have heard rumors that the new potential owners are moving ahead with addressing future administrative items related to operations as though the deal is imminent. It is my understanding that they leased an office in Pittsburgh or at least they have an address. It is listed in Bizapedia.

I would imagine that Buncher would have all kinds of t's and i's to cross and dot before a deal gets finalized.

Found it interesting that the HVF confirmed on their website that the Bunchers are selling Hidden Valley. Usually everyone denies knowledge until a deal goes through.

I was surprised as well, here is the text from the


The Foundation Office has heard many rumors. We do believe Buncher is selling the resort and they are in current negotiations but we do not know for sure with whom or what company. That is about all we can tell you. Vickie, Hidden Valley Foundation.

The latest rumor I heard is that Buncher and the prospective owner are somewhat far apart on money issues. This of course is a rumor. That said, deals like this often fall apart because they cannot resolve the selling price. I also heard that Nutting may be in waiting if the deal fall through.
This is where the lawyers earn their money.

I can't find that post on their homepage. Can someone direct me to the post?

It's on the homeowner site not the public one

It is in the Homeowners Forum.

Snowsmith, where do you get all your Info?

No sure what info you are referring to. Our friend, Imp, have provided the most interesting information related to the potential new owner. Otherwise my info comes from verbal sources at HV where I own a home. However, I believe strongly that the information Imp provided is accurate.

While not essential, it is always more 'convenient' for a large real estate/business transaction to close on the 1st of the month. Should July 1st come and go with no HV sale, I would imagine things are not looking promising for the 'rumored' homeowners/managers buyers group. I do personally believe (however, with no direct knowledge) that Nutting is ready to scoop up HV as soon as Buncher gives them the nod and, at this point, Buncher must be growing impatient with The Group.

Has anyone heard anything?! I sure hope some progress has been made as I would prefer NOT Nutting.

Is that a double negative?

So after the 4th weekend, any news. Heard Bunchers want to sell

I heard that the deal with ALPS is generally thought to be dead. They could not come up with the $$$$. I also heard that Nutting may be interested and there may be other groups interested. I have also heard that Buncher wants to unload the place.

Maybe ALPS or one of the other buyers will look into buying West Mtn in NY.

Why not, bigger mtn. than HV, plus it has lots of potential for future expansion, as well as some real estate development opportunities. The Owners seem to be cut from the same cloth as a couple of WV ski area owners we know.

eh heh - again with this mishigas - eeesh just like the DC Southwest Waterfront Redevelopment ... NEVER WILL HAPPEN (for 10 years) ! blah blah blah zzzzzZZZZ

Any new news? I don't understand crusheez.

He is saying the deal is kaputzki.
However, I did hear that there is still an slim chance that a deal could happen. Also heard Nutting would like to scoop up HV at a bargain price.

Why do you say the deal may not be dead?

The real question is "Why is Buncher willing to sell HV at a bargain price...i.e., at a substantial loss?" That is what I can't figure out when just a few years ago they were 'willing' to buy LV on top of their HV and jurasic park investments. While they may not have been making a hugh ROI on HV, all indications are that they were making some profit. Just don't get why they would be willing to sell now at maybe a $10m+ loss?

I don't think they are selling at a loss. They have made money running this resort, probably more than we obviously imagine. I think they want out to pursue their strip district project. I think the Doring's were instrumental in the Hv project and for what ever reason, they are not involved in it anymore

The Buncher's do not seem to understand how to make money in the resort business. They initially invested alot of money in the ski area and golf facilities. From what I understand, the made a decent operating profit the last 2 years on the sking operation. I am not sure about golf. The do not seem to understand the marketing end of selling real estate and they gave up on the restuarants and turned them over to Skyline Ventures. Hops Pub is never going to be a big money maker unless they are willing to spend some money renovating the building...it looks like a dump. From what I understand their board thinks HV is too risky of an investment and they want to get out. Thus they are willing to sell the place at a loss.
If you read the originally newspaper article about why they were buying the place they indicated that they were concerned that the demise of HV would affect their investment in the Paradise Springs development next door. Well they stabilized the place and now they want out. That's my 2 cents worth.

Its all about real estate. With the 2nd home market in the tank just about everywhere... need I say more. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there are still several more units in the original condo build that are unsold (several years old).

They sold half of those units which actually surprises me. Why would anyone buy one of those at $80k to $100k more than similar existing units? And some of the units overlook the sewage lagoon. Why would they not want to differentiate themselves and build something that doesn't look like it was a Kettler project? This was some bad decision making on their part. There is money to be made at the ski base areas.

Note that 7 Springs just released 8 more of those big townhouse for sale which are selling for $880k to $1.2 million. So I guess they are figuring that the 2nd home market is coming back.
At HV you can buy a brand new 2200 sf house on 1/2 acres overlooking the golf course for $389k. However, Buncher refuses to spend a nickel on marketing that Green Tee development. They do not underdstand how to sell resort real estate.

At least the story that I have heard behind the interest in selling, lies within the ownership structure at Buncher. When Jack Buncher passed away in 2001 he left everything to charity. He sounds like a great guy with his heart in the right place, see:
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...it-away-673217/

The hand over was over time and gradually the charities have gradually assumed control and the changes in focus that may go with that. Apparently they may be more interested in cash-in-hand than the long term real estate investment in a ski resort??

It sort of reminds me of a meeting I at my local church, where the message was that although they appreciate it, they really were not too interested in donations of hard to sell items such as furniture or shares in private companies. They preferred cash, and didn't want to have to work too hard to convert things to cash. At least from their perspective, they wanted money to fund their short term agendas without lots of strings attached.

Found it interesting, that the billboard along route 31 advertising Hidden Valley, was covered up by an ad for Seven Springs. Why would they relinquish that billboard to a competitor? Must be cutting down on expenses.

Can't imagine that the billboard expense is so signigficant in the grand scheme of things that they would want to see it go to a competitor. ..that is unless Hidden Valley will be part of Seven Springs anyway; Here come the rumors.

That was my thought. Any news out there Snowsmith?

While the whole thing is admittedly getting frustrating, to play devil's advocate for a moment:

A. Who are the two most likely ad purchasers for a billboard on 31? HV and 7S. So if any space becomes available, odds are fairly decent one of the two of them would take it.

B. Do you really think the company that owns the sign goes to a non-renewing customer and says "your competitor is going to lease that space if you don't"? Probably not. So it would seem somewhat unlikely Hidden Valley would have known who would take the space if they non-renewed it, for whatever reason.

C. And finally (hopefully I am not wrong on this one), if Nutting buys HV I assume it would be to keep it open. So why would he buy the place and then take down a billboard?

Why would he buy Laurel and keep it closed?

You can't even compare the two resorts.

I heard the ALPS group is still trying to come up with the money and Nutting has a cash offer on the table.

Sure you can, both would draw a different segment away from Seven Springs. The common denominator is they're both in competition with 7S for skiers.

Yea, but you don't spend $10-15m (i.e., for HV) just to put a competitor out of business!

As for ALPS, it seems to me that the clock has to be ticking down --- maybe to midnight tonight. Especially if other offers are on the table, from Nutting and/or perhaps some other unknown party.

Why would Mr. Nutting spend $15 million for HV when 7S owns most of the market?

Maybe for a good ROI? If they are pricing based upon income (EBITDA & Cap Rate) vs. assetts, HV may offer an excellent ROI after the infrastructure upgrades provided by Buncher. Then, there is the potential opportunity for additional ROI from realestate development when that market recovers. Maybe (hopefully) also because they want to recapture a niche they are losing at 7S --- that being 'family skiers'. Finally, maybe, just because they are avid ski enthusiasts and owning ski resorts just makes them happy whether or not they actually operate them in a manner in which we approve!

I dunno. Go see if you can read any articles about why Nutting would by HV in the Pittsburgh Press and get back to me on it.

Just stoking the conversation but GG, I don't understand your reply. The Press has been out of business for well over a decade now. Perhaps you mean the Post-Gazette. Larry Walsh ran a story about this back in January. [url=http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/region/seven-springs-may-have-its-eye-on-neighboring-hidden-valley-670368/][/url] I think he is onto something in paragraph 8. 7S could have been a Vail Resort property if George Gillet had been successful in his bid awhile back.

Sarcastic comment since the Press no longer exists. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and Pittsburgh Press were competing morning and afternoon papers in the market. The company that owned the P-G bought the Press, and phased out the latter. While there were forces in play with the papers that are not here, I am suggesting it is not unheard of to spend money to further control and dominate the market of an area. The fact that the decision maker in question owns a newspaper syndicate is a bonus in the comaprison.

Closer to topic. Why did Snowshoe buy Silver Creek? Mount Snow buy Haystack? Jiminy buy Brodie? All had market dominance in the immediate area.

Don't mind me, I'm a little dense. I forgot the P-G bought out the Press. Nice analogy/analogies.

GG - since Snowshoe bought Silver Creek, what improvements have you seen, what new trails have they constructed? I believe Haystack is no longer open to the public. Here is the Wikopedie story on Brodie:

Brodie was a ski resort in New Ashford, Massachusetts, in the Taconic Mountains in the far northwestern part of the state. It opened in 1964 and thrived for a time by using then-cutting-edge innovations like top-to-bottom snowmaking and lighted night skiing. Founder Jim Kelly gave the resort an Irish theme: its nickname was "Kelly's Irish Alps"; the slopes had names like "Shamrock," "Killarney," and "JFK"; and the base lodge housed an Irish-themed saloon that did a rousing business in drinks and live music. But like many small independent ski areas, Brodie lost business over time to larger, higher-capitalized, corporate-owned resorts.
In 1999 the Kellys sold it to the owners of nearby Jiminy Peak, who closed Brodie in 2002 and sold it to a Texas-based condominium developer. The area continued to operate snow tubing, in conjunction with Jiminy Peak, through the 2006-2007 season.

With a vertical drop of 1,250 feet and four chairlifts, Brodie is the largest closed ski area in the Berkshires

Notice it says "closed" ski area.
If Nutting buys HV he has no incentive what so ever to invest money in the place. I pray to God that he does not buy the place.

Snowsmith...I know nothing about these other examples you mention but, to me, it would make no sense whatsoever for Nutting to spend $13m+ for HV to put it out of business (other than a highly unlikely 'arbitrage-type' deal in which he believes he can quickly sell off the individual assets for a greater sum than the purchase price).

7S is essentially already at maximum capacity (i.e., overcrowded slopes and facilities even with exorbitant pricing) on wkends & holidays. They wouldn't benefit by closing down HV slopes. They don't need to eliminate a competitor they need to expand their capacity. Maybe they determined buying HV would be the most cost effective way to do that. After all, it is a lot closer than LM!

What about FishNSki's Redneck West Virginia Alpps?

Article in somerset paper about upcoming winter weather. "Nobody at hidden valley could be reached for comment". Really! Anyone in charge? Where is the spokesperson? Where's Scott Bender? Anyone in charge? Hopefully it gets sold soon.

The latest I heard is the ALPS group is out. They could not come up with the purchase price.

The new owner from what I hear will be Seven Springs Resort (i.e. Nutting).

Have you heard when the sale go through.

That's an interesting question. Someone's sure to fire up the rumor mill.

I heard from a realtor that the ALPS group was over $1 million short when it came time to close. That same person did say that 7 Springs has an acceptable offer and the paperwork is being completed. If this is true or hype, I have no clue.

He bought a closed ski area to keep it closed... hopefully he'll do likewise at HV (buy an opened ski resort and keep it opened).

I think Scott bender was one of the principals in the Alp group. If seven springs is the buyer, what would that mean for his position

I would think his future would be further complicated by the fact that he left 7S to take the position at HV when Buncher originally purchased. But who knows, maybe Nutting likes him and likes what he's done at HV in the last 5 years.

I hope he ends up at Blue Knob.

7 words "The Springs Snowboard Park at Hidden Valley"

A frightening thought (for those who enjoy HV for what it is). Seems to me, though, that that wouldn't help to sell much real estate?

So, I don't mind starting a LARGE and completely UNSUBSTANTIATED rumor every so often.....

Anyone remember back when Nutting & Buncher were looking to purchase 7S & HV there was a rumor that Vail Resorts may be interested in one or the other???

Supposedly neither resort alone was big enough... they were only interested if they could get both. Just maybe, Nutting is interested in HV so he can turn around and sell both to Vail or another larger operator. One of those deals where the value of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts?

Again, just 'dreaming', nothing more!

This question has been on the HV website forum unanswered, which should tell us something:

"We've heard that Hidden Valley was sold to Seven Springs and the closing will be next week. Any truth to the rumor? And if so, what effect will that have on operations and Hidden Valley home owners?"

Like it or not, looks like we are going to have to get used to the idea of Nutting controlling all 3 Laurel Highlands Ski Areas. I am trying to look into the bright side of things:
1. Would expect multimountain passes in the offering
2. Would expect shuttle bus service between 7S and HV
3. Would expect shuttle bus service from Rockwood Amtrak to both, whenever that happens
4.Being able to rise in the charts of runs and lifts, they have potential to become more of a destination resort, more similar to SnowShoe, etc. This could have some benefits over time
5. As Gizmosnow has pointed out,together they may make for a better acquisition candidate than individually.

I would be very curious if a sale would include the adjoining land to be developed. While it seems apparent that Buncher wants to get out of the business of running the resort, they may not want to get out of land development and the big investment they have made there. Anything 7S were to do to improve the resort could indirectly benefit Buncher's land holdings, and one would think that point would not be lost with them in their negotiations. I would hope that we will see this kind of win-win deal emerge where for example Buncher sells for perhaps less than they had wanted, but in return 7S commits to developing the Outback project.

I would assume that they would take over operations of the food service at HV. Seven Springs has excellent restuarants so that would be a good thing.

I have also heard some rumors that there is still another interested party?

Who is the other party? I ,myself, hope Seven springs is the buyer. It's a win win for everyone. I think they will buy it and make it the premiere ski resort destination in the east. I also think it will entice them to develop laurel mt.

I'm not sure how I feel re: a 7S purchase but if the ALPS group were to manage to pull it off by 'the skin of their teeth', it might not bode well re: their ability to invest in upgrades and even ongoing operations so probably best if other than them. I had also heard of other possible buyers but making the assumption all those rumors emanate from a common source; i.e., rather than serve to corroborate that there is any truth to the rumor.

I received an e-mail from the foundation today announcing a special board meeting for Thursday evening. Maybe the meeting will finally confirm the sale of the resort.

yeh, Nic, that would be nice and the 1st of a month is always convenient for a transfer of ownership. However, I also just rec'd the HVF Newsletter and it says the mgmt contract with Omni has been cancelled and board will be mtg to select new mgmt. It would seem that this is more likely to be purpose of upcoming special mtg. Who knows though, maybe for both?

It is a shame that Omni will no longer provide the management for the community organization. I thought they did a fine job. We'll find out who the next low bidder is.

I understand that the sale to Nutting is proceeding with an annoucement coming as early as the end of this month.

there you go:

Pittsburgh Business Times

When has a monopoly ever been good for the consumer. Common ownership will be extremely detrimental to consumers. Nutting will be able to control pricing, discounting, hours of operation, development....everything.

A lift ticket at 7 Springs costs $86 on a holiday weekend. With common ownership, he can significantly raise prices at both resorts. Skiing has already become such an expensive family sport, it can cost upwards of $500 a day for a family of 4 to ski. As a DC skier we have options but I feel for my Pittsburgh friends that have no real day skiing options.

Blue Knob

<2 hours from dahntahn

And once you get good, Timberline.

Laurel, I love skiing/boarding at Blue Knob but I don't believe its either a day skiing resort from Pittsburgh or DC. We always stay over in Bedford or one of the resort condos. I would same the same about Wisp which was purchased last year and were hoping for big things from the new owners.

Our day skiing out of DC is primarily Whitetail. Most people will not drive more than 1 - 1.5 hours to day ski. Anything more makes for a very long drive home.

I could be wrong but according to the DC ski resort profiles, both Blue Knob and Wisp are more than a 2 hour drive from Pittsburgh and that's in good weather. I doubt most of my friends (and most Pittsburgh skiers) will make those drives to day ski.

$86 is ridiculous for a holiday weekend daypass at 7S, but what is more amazing to me is that it is packed to capacity with people willing to pay it. Why would 7S make the price any lower if they can fill it to capacity with skiers who insist that they must be there that day?

If Nutting is picking up HV around $10M as reported, he is getting a bargain. Although exact numbers were not disclosed, believe it was estimated he paid $90-100M for 7S. So for 10% more, he significantly expands terrain, gets a better golf course, and eliminates a competitor. I am really surprised that after all the investment Buncher has made that they want out so badly that they are willing to do this deal.

About a 2 hour drive from the eastern suburbs, a bit of a drive but I do it often. PA Rt. 22 is now 4 lane and non toll right into Blue Knob country which, by the way, is still Steelers, Penguin and Pirate homeland.

As JohnL said, Timberline is a 3 hour option away. I make the drive just to ski the terrain and natural snow. I blow right by Wisp to get there.

More in the news:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/loca...-resort-700991/


Here is an OLD article that came up in my google search......
http://rumbunter.com/2013/01/15/good-lor...alley-purchase/

Actually a weekend holiday full day ticket (9:00 AM to 10:00 PM) is $80, not $86. Not that that is cheap, but we're paying for 1200 snow guns covering 400 acres of terrain, and two 6 pack high speed lifts. It should cost more, but perhaps not $80. How about $36 to attend the wine festival...not that is rediculous.
Buncher's paid I believe $12.6 million and invested another $13 million.
I am sure they're not going to get $26 million for the place but $10 million is $3.0 million less than ALPS offered. Since they don't seem to have any marketing hutzpah, they may not have drummed up enough buyers. I did hear the owners of Wisp were interested but wanted time to do their due diligence and Buncher would not provide them the time. I guess they are in a hurry to unload the place.

So, that doesn't make any sense!!! If ALPS was just $1m shy, why not renegotiate a lower deal?!

I would be surprised if nutting bought hidden valley to "shelve" a competitor because hidden valley provides no competition for seven springs but it definitely can complement the resort. Alps had a great business plan but no funding. Nutting has deep pockets to finally unlock hidden valleys full potential.

Sort of like he had deep pockets to unlock the Pittsburgh Pirates great potential... it only took 20 years and he still hasn't dug too deep into those pockets to bring respectability back to Pittsburgh baseball

If this deal does happen, it's either going to be great for all local resorts (including Laurel), or it could be really bad for 2 of the 3. Only time will tell.

We used to have season passes at 7 Springs but didn't renew 2 years ago because of the poor customer service, the focus on parks while ski conditions were neglected and the steadily rising prices. Hotel rooms can cost $299 a night with 2 day minimums, ski conditions have gone down hill and food quality is poor at best (and expensive).

As a die hard skier I don't want to see competition reduced or eliminated. 7 Springs will control Hidden Valley and Laurel. Last year, 7 Springs announced they were closing 3 times only to remain open after Hidden Valley extended their season. If it wasn't for the competition, all of the resorts would have been closed before the end of March.

No monopoly will ever benefit the consumer. They will have control of pricing, discounting, development, hours of operation, seasons, packages, etc.... Anyone who thinks Bob Nutting buying his only major competition will be good for the consumer is delusional at best.

Ask yourself why they are trying to rush a sale. It took them almost a year of negotiation and due diligence to buy 7 Springs. What's the hurry? If Snowsmith is correct, are they trying to keep the owners of Wisp or other interested parties from submitting an offer?

Don't delude yourselves, this is all about limiting competition and controlling the market, nothing more!

Just another local report. Much the same info though...

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/08/28/hidden-valley-may-be-bought-by-seven-springs/

Was hiking the Laurel Mountains for the holiday weekend. 7 Springs employee told me there will be a press release on the sale today. They said it will probably promote all the great things Bob is going to do - investment, development, benefits.... (the employee told me not to believe it, this is all about Hidden Valley taking market share the last 3 years and Bob trying to control the market).

I was amazed at how many 7 Springs homeowners are opposed to Bob Nutting buying Hidden Valley. Seems like most see this for what it is, buying the competition to establish a monopoly to control the market.

News was just officially announced in Daily American:

http://www.dailyamerican.com/seven-sprin...19bb30f31a.html

I hear you loud and clear regarding a monopoly. With that said, I guess count me as cautiously optimistic. As nice as the snow making upgrade was and some of the cosmetic facility stuff, there was still way too much that Buncher was getting wrong or just not doing at all. This, IMO, included: resort owned rentals/lodging, food/concessions, marketing, investment in viable non-ski season attractions.

If HV was exactly like 7S and attracted a similar customer, I would be more concerned. I certainly think they can be run as compliments to one another.

With that said, it's better for everyone if you have two distinct owners (correctly) running the resorts. Unfortunately, Buncher never really dialed in the running the resort part.

Let's see what happens to the HV Rates.

Here are a few from last year (all day adult)

Fri 38
Sat 55
Sun 52
Hol 58

Not sure what to think but I'm going to be cautiously optimistic. One potential good thing may be 1 pass for both resorts

At 11:48 today I received an email from 7 Springs CEO informing of purchase of Hidden Valley. While stating that this was a good thing for both resorts, there were no specific details of HV plans/improvements. Rather there were comments of studying the future. This is of some concern since one would hope that prior to purchase during due diligence the buyer would have some general ideas about improvements before plunking down millions of dollars. I would anticipate more announcements fairly soon about changes to be effected this coming ski season. I note with some curiosity the specific mentioning of HV being a "family oriented resort." What does this say about 7Springs?
The Colonel

Dear Seven Springs Friends and Family,

I want to thank you for choosing to make memories with your family and friends at Seven Springs. We appreciate you and value your great support of the resort.

Today is an exciting day for both the Seven Springs and Hidden Valley resort communities as we proudly announced that Seven Springs will acquire Hidden Valley Resort. Please join me in welcoming Hidden Valley to our resort family. We are eager for the opportunity to continue our commitment to the local community and the Laurel Highlands.

Seven Springs has long held a deep appreciation for Hidden Valley and the family experience it offers. Moving forward, we want to ensure that more and more guests have the opportunity to develop the passion for the outdoors in the Laurel Highlands. While it is too early in the process to finalize specific future plans, the most important thing for you to know is that we remain committed to the growth of Seven Springs and will make the same commitment as we move forward with Hidden Valley Resort.

I know many of you will have questions and concerns on how this purchase will affect you personally and the resort. I would ask that you look back over the last five years and realize how much we have all accomplished together and celebrate our successes. With that in mind, we will work hard to build on that success as we continue to move forward.

Thank you for your support during this exciting time. We look forward to sharing more news in the coming months.

Sincerely,

Eric Mauck
CEO
Seven Springs Mountain Resort


So the most disconcerting statement is...

"the most important thing for you to know is that we remain committed to the growth of Seven Springs and will make the same commitment as we move forward with Hidden Valley Resort."

Why not say right up front that we are equally committed to HV....why have to wait until we move forward?

Hopefully, just bad wording!

I'd be less worried about wording in press releases and more worried about actions.

I take folks at their word until proven otherwise. Let`s see what pans out.

wish you the best, semi retirement is wonderfull
yours is the best line so far
imp

Thank you 56ish. I believe it is time to put the negativity aside and give thme a chance.
I think the problem with 7S is that it is so popular with the masses that it can no longer cater to the die hard skiers like us. Hopefully we'll be able to keep HV a simpler place to ski.

MONOPOLY plain and simple. He will now have complete control over the pricing of everything from skiing to lodging to F&B. He will control the development (focus on 7 Springs), the season of operations (no more skiing into April), amenities (expect everyone to be encouraged to go to 7 Springs to ride the $85 zipline), operations (expect limited night skiing and shorter season at Hidden Valley).

As for my family, we are middle income and enjoy spending time together in family friendly affordable activities. With Nutting now firmly in control over skiing in the Laurel Mountains you can bet that it won't remain affordable for long. 7 Springs is already approaching Western resort pricing. With him acquiring his only real competitor in the region it won't be long before 7 Springs sees $90 lift tickets and Hidden Valley hits the $70+ range.

The other thing to watch is the hours of operations. Expect Hidden Valley to have both reduced hours of operation and a much shorter season than in years past. The focus will be to drive people and revenues to the more expensive mountain with the greater overhead, especially early and late season.

For anyone dumb enough to think this common ownership is good for skiers, the community, the employees or the resorts....Good luck suckers! At least being out of DC we have the option of the Pocono resorts.

Gizmosnow is obviously a huge Nutting supporter given his posts and probably a retired rich guy so he's not concerned about the rest of us getting our pockets cleaned.

Superskier, have you been to HV lately. We already have limited skiing. No nite skiing on Monday and Tuesday and limited nite skiing on Wednesday, Thursday, and Sunday. Food and beverage are non-existant in the summer and very limited in winter. Amenities are weak at best. I don't consider myself stupid or a sucker but I will remain positive and wait to see what transpires over the next months. You should go to the pocono's along with your attitude

Superskier....
Until this last statement, your points were very lucid and well stated. Does not necessarily mean you are correct, though! Only time will tell and my strong hope is that you turn out to be completely off the mark.

Don't know where you get from my posts that I am a huge Nutting supporter?? Actually, I remember specifically posting at one point that " I prefer NOT Nutting."

At this time, however, it is what it is and there is nothing, to my knowledge, any of us can do to stop the acquisition from proceeding. May as well give 7S the benefit of the doubt and hope it all turns out for the best. In the future, if they f-up, we can vote with our pocketbooks. That is always our option!

Superskier - you sound eriely similar to another poster "Sincraft". Did you change your name? He was also a very negative fellow. Seven Springs has invested millions in improvements - 6 person express lift, hotel renovations, etc. Reduced hours, we already have reduded hours at HV. Try using a little more facts and a little less emotion in your posts.
Do Ski Liberty, Roundtop, and Whitetail represent a monopoly? We're talking 3 ski areas out of many. How is that a monopoly?

I would agree that we just need to let them give it a try, and hope for the best. If we don't like it, there are plenty of other options especially, for those of us coming from DC.

At the end of the day what is best for HV is to be part of a successful, profitable business. Although I have some concerns, I am happier with this outcome than seeing it go to another buyer who was financed by the skin of their teeth, with no $ for anything beyond that. The merger with 7S should provide lots of inefficiencies and scale. Look at the cost savings of 1 CEO, 1 Director of Marketing, 1 Events Mgr, 1 advertising campaign, etc.

On a related note, has anyone heard anything with respect to the neighboring Buncher property? I would be surprised if the reported sales price of $10M included that, considering all the investments made there. Assuming Buncher is holding on to that and plans to develop, would expect them to have a huge interest in the success of the resort next to it.

Snowsmith, you need to get YOUR facts straight, Nutting did not pay for the 6 pack lift. The Dupre family had already made the deposit before negotiating the sale (lead time was over a year) and paid the balance of the purchase price as a term of the sale.

Yes, he did "renovate" the hotel rooms which I heard were paid for with a seller's reserve (Dupre money). I will give him credit for the sporting clays and although our family doesn't shoot (or like guns) it was an addition.

What else has he done to improve the ski experience? How many of the 30+ year old lifts has he replaced? Vail just bought a resort in Michigan and replaced all the chair lifts in one summer! Has he replaced the 25 year old snowmaking? Yes, he changed from diesel to electric compressors but that has resulted in poorer snow conditions not better. Lift tickets are $20 more than when he bought it.

At the same time, Hidden Valley installed a brand new chair lift, 100% new automated snowmaking with big jet guns, renovated their hotel (rooms still suck) and cut new slopes (not open). Lift tickets are still under $60 and appear less than $10 more than when they bought it.

As for Whitetail, Liberty and Roundtop, they are owned by the same company and we ski them out of DC a reasonable amount. However, there are a number of other resorts in the area competing with those properties that are the same distance from DC. Compare that to 7 Springs and Hidden Valley where you have the largest regional resort buying it ONLY competitor. Yes Wisp and Blue Knob could be options but my Pittsburgh friends say the drive is too long to warrant the trip. A monopoly occurs when you buy or control your competition in this case Hidden Valley and Laurel Mountain which I don't think is open yet.

Look, my family has other options but we'll miss seeing our Pittsburgh friends. I just feel for them and others like them that will have not option but to pay whatever price Nutting demands.

I will close with this. Hidden Valley skiers and homeowners would have been far better off if the resort was sold to Peak resorts, the Whitetail group, the owners of Wisp, Vail Resorts or some other group that knows how to manage a property profitably and still deliver a good customer experience.

HVskier, yes we skied and stayed at both Hidden Valley and 7 Springs each of the last couple of years. Food and Beverage options at both properties are poor. Obviously you don't spend any time at 7 Springs or you would know how much they have cut back on both the availability of food and beverage service and the quality of the food. To give you an example, we stayed there this summer and there was no bar open after 10:30 PM and we could only eat at the bar or main restaurants. Gone is the 24 hour food service and bar service open until 2 AM.

As for amenities, Hidden Valley is lacking in the summer from what I know. I'm sure there will be more but expect them to mostly promote 7 Springs activities.

I find your attitude amusing and naive. 7 Springs passholders, ourselves included, had the same "optimism" when Nutting bought 7 Springs. It's hard to find a homeowner of passholder who remains optimistic or happy, just look at the 7 Springs message boards after this purchase was announced. I hope you remember this as they bleed you dry over the next couple of years just as they did to us at Springs.

Sincraft - Your post is full of just angry bull. There are two six pack lifts. How could Dupre have paid for these if he did not own the resort? How could Dupre have paid for the hotel renovation when he did not own the resort. If you hate the place so much why do you have a season pass? Your one of these people who just like to complain.
I have had many a good meal at 7Springs restuarnats, including a favulous meal at Helens. 25 year old snow making system? That is pure BS. They have one of the most extenisive snow making systems I have ever seen using HKD (that stands for Herman K Dupre in case you didn't know) snow making equipment that is used all over the world.
If you were to complain about the crowds on the weekends, I would understand. I could also understand you complaining about the prices which are high.
If you hate the place that much, why do you still ski there? I guess so you'll have something to gripe about.

An article I stumbled upon with a bit more info/insight:


http://triblive.com/business/headlines/4641319-74/hidden-seven-springs#axzz2e1ak6NvC

Snowsmith, now you are showing how little you really know.

I know what HKD stands for and have spoken with H on many occasions when at the mountain. H is the one who told me the system on the mountain at 7 Springs is OLD technology and that BOB NUTTING will not spend the money to upgrade it. Go to the HKD website and see what the new tech looks like, the change in the nozzle technology, the number of jets, the better use of air. The majority of the snowmakers at 7 Springs were installed more than 20 years ago and have not been upgraded since. Yes, 7 Springs has an extensive system but it is not managed properly. That is why Hidden Valley has opened first the last 3 years. Herman used to bring compressors up the mountain on December 1, now they bring them in the week before Christmas.

As for the crowds, they are no longer a real problem even on weekends. The number of skiers are down so significantly that the Giant Steps chair rarely ever runs and the parking lots always have open spaces. That never used to be the case when the Dupres owned the mountain. Bob has definitely solved the parking problem.

I suggest you stick to facts you know instead of making things up or relying on media hype.

Alright, enough with the personal attacks. It's possible for folks to share different viewpoints without making things personal. DCSki isn't the place for that.

+1 (or more than 1, if I can). I think it is in large part due to the regional nature of the forum where people know each other (in real life), but the civility normally found on this site is part of why I like to post here.

Me too! Civility, along with "tongue in cheek" zingers such as the Mayor's and Kim's recent comments about Timberline improvements, is what makes DCSki one of the finest snow sliding sites available! Thanks for policing, Scott.
What you provide for Mid-Atlantic skiers is greatly appreciated.
Short zip line in middle of TL beginners slope and bottom run out seem greatly out of place and sizing!
The Colonel

My apologies for going a little too far. A little critisism of our local resorts is fine, but the endless whining and haranguing pointed at Seven Springs is just not warranted. If anything, we're here to support and nurture our local snow sports industry. We can find fault with every Mid-Atlantic resort. But there are good things also.

Again my apologies to Superskier and the Forum for my lack of decorum.

Edgar;
According to this article it does not:

http://triblive.com/business/headlines/4641319-74/hidden-seven-springs#axzz2e1ak6NvC

For those HV homeowners- just rec'd a msg that the special mtg of the HVF has been cancelled with no further details re: rescheduling. This will be an 'interesting' time for the HVF and homeowners as, I believe, the resort 'owner' still maintains a majority of seats on the HVF BOD. Under Kettler, Scanlon would often vote the Kettler seats and override the desires of the homeowner representatives. The Buncher reps generally abstained from voting on key issues in deference to the desires/preferences of the homeowners. We will need to see how Nutting manages his relationship with homeowners vis-a-vis the HVF BOD.

My apologies to the board and Snowsmith.

My family, friends and I are upset about this transaction and its impact on our lives and other consumers. I've worked in consumer protection for most of my legal career fighting against monopolies, price fixing and other anti-competitive/anti-consumer activities. I've seen this situation before and know its outcome.

It's very difficult on us to know that to see our friends we will eventually be forced to pay exorbitant prices or use other facilities than the ones we have enjoyed for years.

Our family has also developed a number of friendships with homeowners at 7 Springs and have seen and heard their complaints the last 6+ years. We don't want the whole region to be subject to the same. I firmly believe that competition drives customer service, innovation, development, restrains pricing and in the long run is beneficial to consumers.

It would have been far better for the region, state and all outdoor enthusiasts if a large resort conglomerate had bought and developed Hidden Valley in competition with 7 Springs. the current owners did well to improve the snow conditions but despite their reported wealth never seemed to grasp the resort business.

Just for your reference

15 USC 18 - (Clayton Act)
No person engaged in commerce or in any activity affecting commerce shall acquire, directly or indirectly, the whole or any part of the stock or other share capital and no person subject to the jurisdiction of the Federal Trade Commission shall acquire the whole or any part of the assets of another person engaged also in commerce or in any activity affecting commerce, where in any line of commerce or in any activity affecting commerce in any section of the country, the effect of such acquisition may be substantially to lessen competition, or to tend to create a monopoly.

15 USC 2 - Monopolizing trade a felony; penalty (Sherman Act)
Every person who shall monopolize, or attempt to monopolize, or combine or conspire with any other person or persons, to monopolize any part of the trade or commerce among the several States, or with foreign nations, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not exceeding $100,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person, $1,000,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding 10 years, or by both said punishments, in the discretion of the court.

In speaking to a few legislators I know, Buncher was given a grant of $5,000,000 to improve the property to which you are referring. I understand that it is being marketed separately.

I agree totally. I really did not want 7S to buy HV. And the Bunchers just did not seem to understand the resort business. But I now need to live with 7S or get out. And I enjoy skiing to much to get out now. From what I understand there were several groups looking into the purchase:
- ALPS group - I understand that they had a ambitious business plan and hoped to use EB5 money (similar to what Jay Peake did) to finance the improvments which included things like a large water park, expanded skiing, hotels, etc. Unfortunately they could not get the money to purchase the resort. And if they could not come up with the money to buy the resort, they would not have had enough money to operate or initiate the improvements that they planned. Thus I think it is a positive that they were not able to purchase the resort.
- Snowtime - owners of Liberty, Roundtop and Whitetail. This company is a well run machine. They are always pumping money into improvements. They know how to make money off of skiing operations. They do not depend on real estate development. They would have been excellent owners.
- The owners of Wisp/Jack Frost/Mount Snow, etc. - I forget their name but they have resorts all over the country. They would have been an excellent owner and have a great reputation.

I heard Peak and Snowtime were interested in making an offer but Buncher would not give them time to do so. Apparently this was a dis-functional sale without a forma RFP process and a VERY short time frame that did not allow for competitive bidding. I understand Nutting forced the sale and timeline by threatening to take money off the table.

The owners of Whitetail are just getting into real estate development with some condos going in over the last couple of years and more planned. They do a great job managing and running a resort operation and have the same snowmaking system as Hidden Valley. They also care about the skier experience which I cannot say about Nutting and 7 Springs.

Peak Resorts owns Big Boulder and Jack Frost, they do not own or operate Wisp. They also own Mt. Snow in VT and several resorts in NH, Ohio, etc. They would have been a great buyer as they invest in their properties and really do a nice job managing the properties. This would have been my preferred choice if a Vail or other large Western group was not interested. Peak focuses on the Mid Atlantic and Northeast and especially resort near urban centers. Hidden Valley would have thrived under them and there ownership would have forced improvements at 7 Springs as well.

I think Wisp was bought buy a large REIT and is operated by a third party. Not sure of the name but I think Pacific Group. Don't know much about them.

As for the ALPS group, I don't know much about them other than there were a couple of 7 Springs homeowners who said they were investors. When we were up at the end of July they claimed to have enough money to not only acquire but to build a new hotel. Apparently a hospitality fund had agreed to partner with them. But doesn't appear Buncher entertained an offer from them.

As for Nutting, I understand he is seeking several million in state taxpayer money for improvements at 7 Springs and will probably do so for Hidden Valley. Not sure why a state would give taxpayer dollars to someone worth over $500,000,000 but they are already doing so with Laurel. So if he gets the funds he'll use it to upgrade the resort and increase the prices. Taxpayer funded extortion of consumers, kind of an interesting concept.

He's been there, done that... see PNC Park

Just to be clear PA is not giving millions to Seven Springs for improvements at Laurel Mountain. PA is funding a rebuild of a recreation facility in a State Park and then lease to a concessionaire much as they would build a marina on a lake in a State Park then lease that operation to a private concessionaire.

Good comment on LV financing to set record straight! Now, as Scott stated, it is time to wait and see what 7Springs comes up with as a plan for HV. Hopefully it will be refreshingly positive. If not, then more comments on sale might be valid. Until then, all is speculation. Let's get off this continuous drubbing of sale.
The Colonel

Hey LHC, just to add some context at Laurel, as far as I know (and I could very well be wrong), Nutting/7S may be the only entity to own a dwelling (the Laurel Mountain Ski Lodge) on State Park land. Therefore, he really has a stranglehold on whether or not some other concessionaire besides 7S could come in, sign a lease with the state, and open Laurel, unless the concessionaire and/or state would either buy the Lodge from Nutting or build a new one. And as far I know, not one dime out of Nutting's pocket has been invested in Laurel, but yet "no one is more excited than us to get Laurel opened" as long as PA is footing the bill (see PNC Park). Again, I'll stand corrected if I'm error.

Getting back on topic, I have heard exactly 1 (one) positive comment from numerous employees, both past and current, homeowners, or long time 7S skiers about Nutting ownership at 7S.

Again, good luck to HV under new ownership. It's a shame Buncher couldn't make it work, but resort management didn't seem to be their niche. And I know for a fact they bled red ink from day one at HV.

Hopefully Bobby (i.e. his competent staff) can make a go of it and make the Laurel Highlands ski areas a year round destination. But with respect to the aforementioned, I'm from Missouri.

Colonel, with all due respect, I have seen 2, maybe 3 posters over the past several years give 7S props. Most have been negative.

I think its great for people to rant, both positively and negatively, but just not at each other. Maybe somebody on the Nutting team might listen.

Finally, history is a great, if not the best, teacher.

HV sounds really flat, but I have never been there. Is it worth the drive from Columbus? Even better snow conditions can't fix flat.

Seven Springs gets complained about so much and sounds so overrated that I don't know that ill bother going there either.

I feel like my time and money are better spent going to Holiday Valley, BK or the CV areas in between trips out west and my once-a-week pass to Perfect North. I'm also going to go to Laurel for some BC pow turns when there is snow.

Holiday Vally definitely. Along with Holimont on weekdays. Both ski bigger than 800 ft vertical.

LHC,
While technically correct that 7S is only the concessionaire, they do OWN assets on the State Land, thereby preventing the State from changing the concessionaire. Furthermore, I do not believe that Nutting is prevented from making the investments needed to complete the project. If there was really enough interest in opening Laurel Mt, that could have been done. Instead, hands have been thrown up in the air and the state has been blamed. Imagine the political goodwill that would have been generated if private, instead of non existent public money, had been spent to revitalize a State Park that is really starting to languish.

This behaviour with Laurel Mt is why so many others are pessimistic about the HV purchase.

actualy all the springs assets on Laurel mt are those things that can easily be removed. that includes the lodge which
would not take much to remove.
if the state feels and can prove ss is not a good partner they can tell them to get their stuff off state land.
But this is an HV thread so.
Buncher had cut back their hours to save money two years ago.
they looked at crowd levels and actual numbers of skiers on the hill. the cuts were all made at times that the slopes were least used.
if your only time to go was then, then you got hosed,
Hiddden Valley will open after the springs, close before them and have less hours!
Still it will be open. And there will be options for hv
passholders to go to the springs during the closed times.

imp

http://www.hiddenvalleyresort.com/the-buzz/hidden-valley-social-feed

Overwhelmingly negative responses with a few positives sprinkled in.

One could say most people don't like change or fear the unknown, but actually, fearing the unknown is not valid; all one has to do is look at the Pirates, Laurel Mountain, & Seven Springs.

hockeydave, you are 100% correct about history being the guide and the Nutting stewardship of 7 Springs and the Pirates being poor.

As for Laurel, Nutting owns at least one lift, the lodge and other assets and has since 2008. He has used the state to force Jennerstown to take over the water and sewage system and expand them to accommodate new development while he has been securing rights to property adjacent to the state land. The resort could have been opened 2-3 years ago but he has intentionally delayed same. (imp - how exactly would you remove the lodge???)

Back to Hidden Valley, lets remember what competition between the resorts has brought us over the years.... 1) discounted season passes - it was Hidden Valley lowering pass rates around 2008 that forced 7 Springs to reduce their rates to ; 2)Length of season - 7 Springs announced they were closing 3 times last year only to retract an hour later after Hidden Valley announced they were going to be open; 3) Snowmaking - Hidden Valley installed state of the art equipment greatly improving the snow conditions, 7 Springs had to respond and has been testing fan jets and finally started some limited upgrades on the Northface towers and elsewhere last year.

I could go on but I think you get the idea. Without competition the above would not have happened. When you are paying $90+ to ski 7 Springs in 2 years I'll remind you of the folly.

Finally in regard to state money, I know that the the DCNR is spending $6.5 million to open Laurel. In addition, 7 Springs has applied for $3 million in state grants for next year to be spent at 7 Springs (I'm sure with the $500+ million Nutting is worth he's too poor to use his own money). I've heard they will be applying for $3-$5 million of grants for Hidden Valley but don't know how or where it will be spent.

superskier
the lodge was built in a hurry, and was essentialy modular on a floating foundation. salvage of it would be possible but not cost effective.
the valley has done business as usual all spring and summer so any great changes in pricing and such should have to wait till next season. If you already paid for a pass is should only be enhanced with ss extras.
imp

Deal expected to close tonight at midnight.  Supposedly, HV security was notified that yesterday (Sunday) was to be their last day.  About a dozen HV full timers have been asked to stay on.  Food services will remain as is thru October to close out wedding committments then 7S food staff will take over.  Nutting has already been in contact with State re: possibility of widening & paving Firetower Road (for shuttle service).  Anyway, those are the current rumors floating about at HV.

I understand the 7S will be offering pass upgrades for both HV and 7S. You'll pay some extra amount and you will then be able to ski both resorts.

 

Thanks for the info guys.  It had been so quiet since the announcement, I was starting to wonder what, if anything, was happening.

There are still 'people' trying to interfere with the sale via the AG.  Personally, I don't suppose they will be successful although...

Guess it is really a done deal now. Just received an email from Seven Springs CEO officially welcoming us homeowners to the Seven Springs family.

Yeah, it looks like the various HV mailling lists were conveyed to the new owners. yay.

Seven Springs provided refreshments for the ski patrol first aid refresher on Sunday. No sign of any management on site, no people in the sales office. Mike is still in the ski shop and they are keeping the rental shop manager which is a good move.

Montain manager went to boyce park, lift ops manager is staying..

 

imp

Yes, Mike is staying on to manage the ski shop...good news! They gutted the ski rental facility on day 1. I understand the ski logde cafeteria area will be redone. The new manager was there this weekend. Apparently, someone from 7S management team, I don't recall his name. Scott Bender now works for Buncher on developing the Paradise Springs property. Restuarants will be taken over by 7S on November 2.  7S is interested in completing the Outback slope expansion.

I had lunch at 7S "Oak Room" on Sunday.  The food and services were excellent.

snowsmith wrote:

7S is interested in completing the Outback slope expansion.

No surprise there... they are also 'interested' in opening LM.   The real question is when can we expect to see the Outback expansion?  (Also, if the HV purchase changes their intentions/timeframes for LM?)

 

My guess would be 'NO' on Laurel. Had 7S pushed Laurel along instead of causing delays and if Laurel were open, well, I'm sure I would find something else to complain about.

Good point on Laurel Mtn. No hurry to get that done, it seems. With 2 additional ski areas requiring work, how much is really going to happen? Nutting and friends are suppose to present at the annual homeowners meeting in November. Perhaps I will ask that question.

Given that Nutting will not benefit from HV season pass sales, we'll see how that affects operating hours, snow making, etc.

snowsmith wrote:

They gutted the ski rental facility on day 1.

I was in shop yesterday...computerized....cedar.....although not auto, the doors much larger...going to be functional & beautiful!  Scaled-down version of rental facitily at 7S.

Interesting, that hardware is not something you go dahn ta 84 and buy?

56fish wrote:

snowsmith wrote:

They gutted the ski rental facility on day 1.

I was in shop yesterday...computerized....cedar.....automatic doors....going to be functional & beautiful!  Scaled-down version of rental facitily at 7S.

That's all well and good but I haven't rented skis for 30 years. And I doubt most homeowners rent skis. It would be nice to have some news on skiing and what's going to happen with our food service after Skyline Ventures contract ends on November 2.

Heard they are putting in a new kitchen for Clocktower.  Rethinking use of Hops...may not want to sell liquor there as it is on major road (31).  Evaluating reopening Hearthstone.  Heard from ski patroller that they 'reclaimed' some of ski patrol space as part of ski school upgrades.  There is limited sqft and only so much that can be done short term but it seems as if they are agressively trying to implement upgrades in time for coming season.  Also, heard that Nutting and/or his staff will be addressing homeowners at an upcoming homeowners mtg./luncheon to be scheduled sometime in November.

http://www.dailyamerican.com/news/local/somerset/hidden-valley-sold-through-five-transactions-totaling-million/article_36d7cab6-3510-11e3-816c-0019bb30f31a.html

hockeydave wrote:

http://www.dailyamerican.com/news/local/somerset/hidden-valley-sold-through-five-transactions-totaling-million/article_36d7cab6-3510-11e3-816c-0019bb30f31a.html

Definitely interesting...not a 'simple' transaction!  Does not mean that is all they paid for HV.  Obviously, this was a 'sophisticated' transaction and was designed to be financially beneficial.  For example, in order to reduce property transfer taxes, other assets, i.e., furniture, fixtures, as well as goodwill, etc. may have been split off as a separate transaction.  These would not be reported as a property transfer.

Am i missing something?

 

In which transaction was the actual "ski area" sold?

I would image the reason for all of these transactions is because all of the parcels of land are deeded separately. It may have been how they acquired by Kettler. It may have been how they are deeded. All of these differing parcels probably have different tax accounty numbers. A consolidation plat was apparently never prepared to consolidate all of these different land parcels into one property holding. On top of that, Nutting probably set up a corporation that protect his other holdings from the liabilities associated with owning a resort. It would be difficult for the writer of the article to have the knowledge to understand the reasons for all of these property transfers.

Here is another article:

http://tribune-democrat.com/local/x2112897369/Seven-Springs-buys-Hidden-Valley-resort

(I still believe they may be missing an important component of the sale.  The snowmakers, lifts, Groomers, rental equipment, furniture, fixtures, other equipment, 'goodwill', etc. may have been a substantial additional transaction not reported as a realestate deed transfer.)

In addition, sources continue to describe/imply as if they purchased a 1200 acre resort.  If I'm not mistaken, the 1200 acres includes all the developed, homeowner/condominium owned property.

gizmosnow wrote:

 Also, heard that Nutting and/or his staff will be addressing homeowners at an upcoming homeowners mtg./luncheon to be scheduled sometime in November.

Write everything down that they propose and/or promise (as a matter of fact, as long as its OK to do, record the meeting) and hold their feet to the fire.

Job Fair at both HV and 7S

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/news/jobs-open-at-seven-springs-hidden-valley-resorts-708611/

In December HVF Newsletter, Eric Mauck says in the final stages of developing the Highlands Pass, a dual resort seasons pass; as well as an unlimited weekend pass for both resorts.  HV and 7S passholders will be able to upgrade to Highlands Pass.  No mention of pricing.