Liberty Snowblowing Issues, Too Moist?
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JamieGrose79
February 25, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Hey guy's. I was up at Liberty last night 02/24. Conditions were great and they started to blow snow at 8:00 pm on all trails except for maybe two. I noticed that the snow being blown felt a bit moist in the air. We happened to stay out of the snow for a good while and then said screw it lets go down Sidewinder and hit lower Strata even though they are blowing snow. We had seen a bunch of people on the frontside skiing through the blowing snow like it wasn't even bothering them. The past few weeks Lower Strata has been bumpy ice and bare. So we figured this would be a great chance to hit this trail with some fresh snow on it since it was groomed Monday night and not hit that hard on Tuesday during the day. We made it down Sidewinder and then down the first 25% of Strata until we hit the fresh snow. We were both ejected from our skis about 30-50 ft. My arm was a bit roughed up but no injuries. I looked down to see my buddy who is an excellent skier just getting up more than 30 feet away from me. His one ski was setting right next to my K2 Brewskis. The other ski was still attached to his leg. I saw him get up so I hurried to grab the yard sale of gear and get to the side of the trail so that we were hit or worse yet, so that someone else didn't get hurt on our gear. I turned around only to see about 3 snowboarders falling in the same places. Right where the guns were starting to build up snow quickly. My buddy ended up taking the sled ride from ski patrol who was very helpful. I had to drive him to the hospital and he now has to see a orthopedic surgeon to get his broken collarbone plated back together. I asked Ski Patrol why they didn't shut down this run yet. They had no answer. I told them that it is obvious that the conditions were dangerous, especially when the snowmaker who called patrol for us was wondering the same thing when I asked him what the hell the issue was. The snow was so wet that your ski would literally stick and throw you forward out of your binding. I popped out twice snow plowing behind the sled at a very very slow speed. I was amazed. Anybody else think Liberty should respond to this issue? Or are we being naive considering they basically make you sign your life away to ski with them not being in the wrong one bit? Or has anyone else busted a collarbone this bad? If so, how long before you were back skiing? Now I am out a ski buddy and the season isn't done yet. He almost made it all season. How depressing.
rbrtlav
February 25, 2009
Member since 12/2/2008 🔗
504 posts
One of my friends on a snowboard broke his collarbone at 7 springs, it was similar conditions, pure manmade powder that was really moist, and ungroomed. Except in this case the trail was marked as closed (at the top) and they had cut over to Gunnar Chairline (Where he was injured) from Gunnar. We saw that he was hurt from the lift (our group of 6 had split into groups of 3) and went down to take a look. Ski Patrol was understanding that we were on a closed trail because of the injury, but informed us that the whole trail was closed.

Anyway, my friend had surgery and was all and all out for about a month, which also ended his High School wrestling. The break was pretty bad, and the X-Ray was not pretty.

I wish your friend the best. And good luck to you.
Eug
February 25, 2009
Member since 03/3/2005 🔗
142 posts
Are these spots what they call 'death cookies'?
KeithT
February 25, 2009
Member since 11/17/2008 🔗
383 posts
I had a very similar issue at Liberty earlier this year (opening day I think) on Whitney's Way. I went into a very small whale and was almost stopped dead in my tracks. No binding releases, but needless to say I finished the run in full A-frame stance. At the time, I thought it was not unusual as perhaps they were blowing higher moisture content snow for base building--but I know nothing of snowmaking technique.
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gtop
February 25, 2009
Member since 11/5/2008 🔗
34 posts
A big thanks to the Liberty Patrol for responding quickly and doing everything they could to make me comfortable.

Never have I came to a grinding halt like that before. I expect to feel a slight slow down when transitioning from hard pack to fresh blown snow. It stopped me so fast I couldn't even feel myself slowing. Basically I was moving along than the next thing I know i'm literally flying through the air. My ski's where just tuned that night so I know it wasn't a wax issue. One thing Jamie forgot to mention was the snowboarder that crashed about 30 seconds after I did from the same reasons. He suffered a mild concushion.

Jamie, thanks a million for taking care of me! I couldn't ask for a better friend.
RodSmith
February 25, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
Live and learn. Never ski into ungroomed manmade unless you are willing to accept the risks. Read the fine print on the back of your lift ticket.

Yes, I have busted a collarbone that bad. Three times. The one I snapped at Whitetail happened when I was between health insurance policies. It is still in two pieces six years later. Getting it plated would cost me at least 15G. Your friend will be just fine. You whine alot.
comprex
February 25, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts

I've been running Maplus RB Medium and Zardoz Blue on the new manmade with no stickies.

gtop, if your skis were just tuned that night that might very well have been the issue. Too much new wax left on the bases, that usually takes several dozen groomed snow runs to wear off, is actually a primo factor for sticking to new manmade.

This is why we brush skis like fiends.

Originally Posted By: Eug
Are these spots what they call 'death cookies'?

No.

You should have seen plentiferous death cookies over the last few nights though: they are the marble-to-fist-sized hard surface chunks that freeze to the groomers.

New trick or treaters get sucked in by their amazing resemblance to corn snow and Crunch, Crunch Scrape Whack Slip OSit! Pow!, Another one bites the Crust.
David
February 25, 2009
Member since 06/28/2004 🔗
2,444 posts
Originally Posted By: comprex
Crunch, Crunch Scrape Whack Slip OSit! Pow!, Another one bites the Crust.


Oh my!! You had me rolling on that one!! crazy grin laugh

I guess it wouldn't have been so funny if I haven't been a victim also!
bousquet19 - DCSki Supporter
February 25, 2009
Member since 02/23/2006 🔗
701 posts
Originally Posted By: RodSmith
Live and learn. Never ski into ungroomed manmade unless you are willing to accept the risks. ...(snip)


Sorry to hear about the accident. I've been stopped dead in my tracks on new machine-made snow a few times, too, most dramatically at Blue Knob a year ago. 'Was shooting happily down Upper Route 66 (I think). Then my skis stopped but I continued.

Luckily, I wasn't injured but now I ski all first runs cautiously until I've checked out the conditions. Like the man says, live and learn.

Woody
JamieGrose79
February 25, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Comprex. Good advice on the waxing. I just dont think that was the issue. My brewskis haven't been waxed since right before my 14 hours ski marathon. I had about 20 hours or more on my skis since they were p-texed and waxed after my rock to the core shot on White Lightning two weeks ago. My skis stuck like they were hitting Super Glue. Although good of you to point that out to us as we will make sure to give a little more scotch brite and
brush our wax down a little bit more next time to be safe.

RodSmith. Thanks for the advice on the collar bone injury, but you really didn't do much to your thoughts by adding that I whine alot. I am mostly worried about my friend and would like to make sure that I don't hit this kind of crud again. It was a bit scary to have this happen. I was pretty banged up myself and don't really know how I avoided being injured. I was just upset that they don't have people checking the conditions as they start to blow the snow. It should be up to the ski patrol to check and shut down the slope for a half an hour or so if the snow is being blown too wet. These guys are suppossed to be professionals after all right? If a lift were to fall right off of the steel cable would that be considered the skiers risk, and even if it is on the back of the ticket, I highly doubt it would be held up in a court of law when it all comes down to gross negligence on the resorts part. I wasn't trying to whine. I was just worried about other skiers having this issue and maybe Liberty would read this on the threads and make some changes a bit. That's all. We were also skiing cautiously, a sudden stop at even 10 MPH is pretty harsh when you are exposed and ejected suddenly, but you would already know that tough guy since you have broken your bone 3 times. I just hope they weren't all in the lift line ROD!
JohnL
February 25, 2009
Member since 01/6/2000 🔗
3,516 posts
Quote:
I wasn't trying to whine.


Then try a little harder.

Quote:
but you would already know that tough guy since you have broken your bone 3 times. I just hope they weren't all in the lift line ROD!


Lose the attitude, you're acting like a loser.

Ask myself, David, Jimmy, LaurelHillCrazie, BushwackerPA, JimK, The Colonel, Marcus and about a dozen posters on EpicSki whether Rod knows how to ski or not.
skier219
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/8/2005 🔗
1,318 posts
This is a tough lesson most skiers learn the hard way. Unless it's super cold and super dry weather, I avoid skiing under a running snow gun because you just can't predict what's coming out and what it's doing to the surface and your skis.

What actually happens is not due to the new wet snow directly, it's due to the new wet snow forming a film of water on your skis that later freezes and glues your skis to the snow. Same thing would happen if you skied through a puddle and then onto dry hard snow.

Many years ago at Sugarbush, I skied under a snow gun, and then my skis froze to the snow after passing through the spray, double ejecting me. I landed on my face, and if it weren't for my goggles (which broke) I probably would have broken my nose. I had a headache for a couple days, which was probably a sign of a mild concussion. Ever since then I give snow guns a WIDE berth unless it's cold and dry enough to eliminate the hazard.

A lot of skiers in this area treat snow guns like they are real snow clouds from the sky, and I have heard people talking about skiing snow gun "powder" many times. Fact is, except in the rarest cases, what comes out of a snow gun doesn't make great skiing until it is groomed or packed by skier traffic. By itself, it's generally a really crappy form of snow, and not remotely like real powder. Avoid it if you can.
comprex
February 26, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts

Time to break out the Ivory soap.
Clay
February 26, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
Originally Posted By: skier219
it's due to the new wet snow forming a film of water on your skis that later freezes and glues your skis to the snow.


Good explaination - I'll just add that typically "later" means in a second or two or less.

I have had some limited success in putting coarse sturture on the base when I know I'm going to be sking in a lot of man made snow. I also do this every spring when there is more water generated because of the warm temps.
JamieGrose79
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Thanks to pretty much everyone here on the forum for giving some good advice on the conditions that can cause an accident like this. I am sure that I will keep this in my head for years to come and I will pass on the good info to my friends on the mountain when I ski with them. Aparently it is hard to make some friends here when you ask some simple questions and people respond with harsh criticism because you asked a question about something technical. It's not like I asked about my carbon footprint and skiing for God's sake.


Originally Posted By: JohnL
Quote:
I wasn't trying to whine.


Then try a little harder.

Quote:
but you would already know that tough guy since you have broken your bone 3 times. I just hope they weren't all in the lift line ROD!


Lose the attitude, you're acting like a loser.

Ask myself, David, Jimmy, LaurelHillCrazie, BushwackerPA, JimK, The Colonel, Marcus and about a dozen posters on EpicSki whether Rod knows how to ski or not.



As for JohnL who has never liked me! I could care less how well Rod can ski. I should have assumed he was part of your elite telemarking clique. Your little clique of people tell me I whine and then you follow up with posts like this one you posted above. Now if that doesn't seem like being a whiner then what does? Rod was telling me I whine too much and then suddenly I get attacked by JohnL for telling Rod how I felt about his criticism. Give me a break. Do you always stand up for Rod? I have never had any issue with most of the people you listed either. Only BushwackerPA, and I apologized to him for my confusion on his post about the brewskis. I only wanted some info on what happened to my ski buddy, instead I was called a whiner. Like I said who is the real whiner in this situation. Thanks to all for the info except for Rod and John. Or should I say Gary and Ace.
JohnL
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/6/2000 🔗
3,516 posts
Quote:
As for JohnL who has never liked me!


Uh you little drama queen, go back to your Massanutten Stinks thread and see who was one of the first posters to stick up for your posting of the negatives. You're becoming a one trick pony. And a good test case of the ignore user feature.
kwillg6
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/18/2005 🔗
2,032 posts
Hmmmm..... touchy, aren't we???? confused
David
February 26, 2009
Member since 06/28/2004 🔗
2,444 posts
comprex
February 26, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: Clay
Originally Posted By: skier219
it's due to the new wet snow forming a film of water on your skis that later freezes and glues your skis to the snow.


Good explaination - I'll just add that typically "later" means in a second or two or less.

I have had some limited success in putting coarse sturture on the base when I know I'm going to be sking in a lot of man made snow. I also do this every spring when there is more water generated because of the warm temps.


My rule of thumb for structure is structure=half the average size of snow. So when you get granules with 2mm radius you can go up to 1mm grooves. That way only the free water goes up into the structure, see?


I think, in the Mid Atlantic, the sticking thing is far more common in high-water arrangements at the -start- of the season.

7Springs, if they're open Thanksgiving to Christmas, have an insane amount of water in the stuff they sprinkle on.

Unfortunately, those crystals are also sharp, and are quite likely to go up into big structure and cause drag when they freeze into the temporary ice that 219 mentions.

Small structure + Hard wax + Fluoro = answer.

One mix I used to like for 7S (haven't used in a bit) was Hertel Hot Sauce + Swix LFG4 (yep, the arctic stuff) on top of Zardoz.
JamieGrose79
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Originally Posted By: JohnL
Quote:
As for JohnL who has never liked me!


Uh you little drama queen, go back to your Massanutten Stinks thread and see who was one of the first posters to stick up for your posting of the negatives. You're becoming a one trick pony. And a good test case of the ignore user feature.


Just because you stuck up for me doesn't mean that I owe it to you to let you walk all over me on a thread. Give me a break. The drama that I have caused on this thread is due to people like you going overboard and name calling. All I wanted to know about was why Liberty wouldn't have shut down a trail when people were wrecking everywhere on it because of poor conditions. I was also asking anyone about their collar bone injuries from skiing and how long it took them to recover enough to get back on skis. I was a little upset to have lost a ski partner for the rest of the season. The upside is that I will be taking his 13 year old daughter to the slopes because he wont be able to. At least I will have some company out there. You can use the ignore feature on me all you want. I may even do the same to you. There seems to be a few people on here who claim to be the expert opinion when it comes to who says what and what should be said. If you think that Rod or yourself were not out of line calling me a loser Drama Queen or a whiner then fine. Whatever makes you sleep easier at night! I am pretty sure that most people here didn't think I was out of line. The only post that got out of hand was the Massanutten Stinks post. Only about 30% of the people on here really hated that one. Apparently the board runs on minority rules theory. I am going to drop this post now and move onto something more worthwhile.
JamieGrose79
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Wow. Thanks for the info Comprex. How long did it take you to figure out that formula for 7Springs? It is pretty amazng to see so many people have so many different techniques to avoiding just this one type of problem. No wonder rental skiers are all over the mountain with a very basic setup.
fishnski
February 26, 2009
Member since 03/27/2005 🔗
3,530 posts
I'm having Noseblowing issues...& my eyes are too moist...Cut it out guys cry !!
JamieGrose79
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
fishnski. You always seem to crack me up. Funny.
Jimski
February 26, 2009
Member since 03/5/2008 🔗
44 posts
Wow, this sounds bad. I've skied through the spray of snow guns before -- how could anyone possibly know when it's the wet, bad stuff? Jamie, was the problem that the snow was freezing when it hit the ground, or that it stayed wet and was like skiing on a clay tennis court? (EDIT: Just saw Skier219's explanation of how it happened. Worse than I thought.)

Also, does anyone know whether this was caused by the resort "mis-tuning" the snow gun -- is there some way to adjust the ratio of water to air pressure? Or did this happen because they were making snow when the air temperature was too high?

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comprex
February 26, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: JamieGrose79
How long did it take you to figure out that formula for 7Springs?


That took about 3 seasons of me paying attention to wax (i.e. about 5 seasons of skiing) between 1992 and 1997.

Everyone was using Hertel back then; Ski Chalet used to sell bricks of it from a tub next to the tuning room, Village Bike and Ski from down in Dumfries, VA used to sell it at half price at the Ballston Ski Expo right next to the swap, Jonny Moseley was about to be signed as spokesperson (in time for the Nagano Olympics). It was real easy to work with, too, as it would drip right from the iron and it looked like it penetrated the bases real well, and the bases felt squeaky-slick after scraping.

Except that the wax *sucked* in Canada. It stuck to the snow like glued-down sandpaper. I was in a group that went up to Quebec each year, and at some point someone had a giant brick of all purpose wax, like half the size of a phone book. Well, I got rid of the Hertel and tried that, and that didn't work very well either. (It was something like -25F with highs of -10F). Well, crack.

I was freezing my keesters off in my thin nylon ski jacket anyway so I go in to look at down coats. I walk out of there with a down Columbia Whirlibird (remember those?) and the guy also had a sign on top of some LFG4 'Best Wax for Today' so I grabbed some.

Yep. That worked.

Well, I come back and my Elans are saturated with LFG4 and Whitetail just opened for business and I take this new girl skiing and I left the Elans at home because she didn't have a car and things wouldn't fit and ...

Later that season we wind up at a condo at 7Springs, she with her new boots and teal Rossi 7S s and me with a pair of Hexcel Blue Ices and my Elans (that I admit to getting lazy with).

The first day was a cold overcast snowblower day. I take the Hexcels out, with their 4 edges per ski and their nice freshly scraped Hertel. Heh. I couldn't buy a turn except on fresh groomed. Gack! I took to making jump turns under the blowers; no forward progress was possible so I just hopped from edge set to edge set. That sort of worked. Until I decided to be too clever for my own good and said "Let's pop into the glades!" Heh.

3 jump turns later, my boot was -IN- the ski. Literally. The rear two screws of the binding toepiece were about 2cm lower than the front two. The heelpiece was OK, but the ski between the toe and heel was about as thick as the cover of a hardcover book. I had collapsed the Hexcel foam.

Yay. I was too pissed off to ski the rest of that day.

Next day we had the morning left to ski before the drive. I take my trusty unrusty Elan Titanium Cs out. They had been saturated with LFG4 in CA and had a light coat of Hertel.

WOOOOOOOOOT! Yeeeeehaaaa! Banzai! I could do no wrong. She even comes up to me and sez "I never knew you could ski like that!".

OK, so that was one recipe to remember. That was in 1992.

Through '95 basically the only skiing I got in was when we went away with her family to like Big Boulder in the Poconos. Swix F4 paste came out and I remember hating it in the cold. Zardoz came out and I sort of used it because it was quick ya know?

The package came together on a mid-late trip to Snowshoe in 1995, new blown snow and sort of wintry mix on top of groomers. Except for the wax, it wasn't much fun (too much condo strife, too much expense, too much rain in the wintry mix in the afternoons). New girlfriend time.

It was either that year or next that Zardoz published something called the 'Felix' process in their Net literature, basically saturating the bases with lubricant prior to dropping CH06 on them. I know I used Felix on a Colorado trip in January '97, it worked OK until they got fresh Colorado dry snow. So that's when my above recipe was pretty much cemented as a 'wet snow' mix.

I don't really use LFG4 much now that there are better products out there (better for having a wider temp range with less work). I'll toss some in the boot bag; if you see me on the hill just ask.
comprex
February 26, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
There's a very easy way to tell. If the airborne spray freezes to your goggles, gloves, coat -> don't ski under it.

Originally Posted By: Jimski

is there some way to adjust the ratio of water to air pressure?


Yes. More air-> more refrigeration effect per water drop as the air expands. Of course, that also makes *really* sharp crystals as the crystals cleave off the nozzle in the air blast, but they *are* dry. This is the sort of snow that makes for "base burn".

Quote:

Or did this happen because they were making snow when the air temperature was too high?


The exact opposite. They were making snow when the air was -cold- and therefore didn't need to use much air per water drop.

More snow for compression motor money that way, and, if they have a chance to build a snow whale, better snow.

JamieGrose79
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
JimSki:
The only problem that I had was that I tried to ski cautiously, but a few MPH on skis can really throw you forward no matter how slow you go. The first thing we always do when we get to the resort is to test all the runs. We go slow and make gentle turns. We look like sissy boy's but I have found it to really help us adapt to the conditions. I just can't get the feeling out of my head. It's almost like seeing someone getting sucked up by an unknown force from a U.F.O. We were literally pulled right out of our skis and slammed back down to the mountain face. It was bad. I am still sore from it.

I really think that it should have been shut down. Especially after the snowmaking crew told me they should have shut it down as well. Patrol told us that they always blow a little bit wet when they first start up the guns, but I don't think that was the case. Either way it was an admission of guilt both withe the patroler and with the snowmaking crew. Sorta funny how this could be our fault. 19 years of skiing and I have never felt this happen to me befroe. Sure a sudden knee jerk slow down which feels like cathcing and edge, but never an instant stop like this. WOW!
rmcva
February 26, 2009
Member since 01/28/2004 🔗
187 posts
Last year my wife and I were at Liberty and she skied into snow from a snowgun and instantly did a face plant. Luckily she wasn't injured but it happened so fast there was just no time to try to recover or prepare for the fall.
comprex
February 26, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: rmcva
Last year my wife and I were at Liberty and she skied into snow from a snowgun and instantly did a face plant. Luckily she wasn't injured but it happened so fast there was just no time to try to recover or prepare for the fall.


I still have the scar from attempting to shave with a K2 710 (MRRs) - ski patrols sometimes have decent plasturgeons on them. It wasn't until I double-ejected out of a pair of 1018s (on 155cm 9'16s) at 7S into a forward, chest-whoofing somersault that I got really careful.
RodSmith
February 26, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
Ok, sorry, I was not nice. I don't think John should have jumped to my defense, whether or not I can ski isn't the issue.

Massanutten was too easy, Liberty was too difficult, I hope Goldilocks finds a hill that is just right. Maybe Blue Knob, which shuts down trails that have tricky snow. Monday, Jack Rabbit was closed reportedly because of sticky man-made whales with deep drifts of natural on the downhill sides of them. Unfortunately, this closure blocked access to two glades which were slated to open. Extrovert was closed because it was too icy, but there were some good lines through the worst section and the lower part which looked sweet went untracked. Lower High Hopes and Edgeset were also in good shape but could not be accessed because of the closure. There was a little patch of sharp pointy rocks in the middle of Extrovert. Maybe they didn't want to do free base repair and tune-up for whiners. Personally, I would like to accept responsibility for myself, like the fine print on the back of the lift tickets says I have agreed to do.

Two of the collarbone fractures were from collisions with motor vehicles, the third was a tree. Maybe you should wait to go to Blue Knob until after they have removed or padded those trees. "Ski good or eat wood". smile
The Colonel - DCSki Supporter
February 26, 2009
Member since 03/5/2004 🔗
3,107 posts
Come on guys, let's get back on track. In between the personal give and take I think most of us have learned a few new things about skiing under the "guns" from this thread.
Past weekend at BK someting similar happened late Sunday and Monday. There were guns a blazing near and just before the midstation upload area. While skiing with speed to cover the flat area near midstation I also nearly fell on my face when I skied under a gun with quite a wet mixture, barely managed to stay upright. And on Sunday, the gang was going down Jack Rabbit and had to cross under a couple of newly activated snowguns. It was instant freeze on goggles and near blindness.
I have heard that ski areas usually lay down a wetter snow to help build up a whale or the base.
The Colonel smile
kwillg6
February 27, 2009
Member since 01/18/2005 🔗
2,032 posts
Originally Posted By: RodSmith


Two of the collarbone fractures were from collisions with motor vehicles


Whoa, Rod! U ski in parking lots and down roads???? wink I'm impressed! U just gotta watch for "the other guy." whistle Probably plays hell with your bases as well. frown
Jimski
February 27, 2009
Member since 03/5/2008 🔗
44 posts
This has definitely been an eye-opener for me. Jamie, thanks for bringing it up. Comprex, thanks for the explanation of why it happened. {Did girlfriend #2 (1995) work out?}

Just this season I've skied through the snow gun clouds at a couple resorts -- with my kids(!!). Thought it was fun at the time, but I realize now that we were lucky that the conditions were not right for a sudden fall. So, take-home lesson #1 for me is: if I see a gun spraying ahead on the trail, and have enough time, I should avoid the cloud. But, what if: (a) I don't have enough time (say I just came around a curve), or (b) the cloud is spanning the trail? How should I ski in order to avoid a faceplant or worse? For example, should I ski as far away from the gun as possible (less moisture in the snow) or try to get close as I can to it (perhaps duck under the spray)? Should I speed up (less chance of freezing on skis) or slow down (less momentum in case of a fall)? [the questions assume I haven't done the magic wax formula that Comprex described].

BTW, on Epic there's a long list of "do's and don't's" for beginners. Someone should add this point to that list.

Thanks to all.
Otto
February 27, 2009
Member since 11/19/1999 🔗
176 posts
I thought hitting trees was a bitch... Adds a whole new meaning to the familiar refrain "bumps the size of Volkswagens"

IMHO man made snow fresh out of the gun and more than a couple of inches deep is flypaper - it doesn't matter who makes it, where they make and when they make it. It also doesn't matter what wax you use unless you are using a hoverboard.

A skier in my group at an instructors thing at Mt. Snow in December broke his wrist when he came over a rise into this glop. I caught his torso in my peripheral vision as he flew past me to a bad end.
I was closer to the middle of the trail and not in glop. His skis were about 30 - 40 feet up from where he hit on the first bounce.

Nobody in the group thought this was anything more than an unfortunate encounter with bad crud we were all familiar with. Having said that, and having read some of the unfortunate personal back and forth in this thread, all of the people I was with that day were very experienced and, in terms of hours on skis, had the equivalent of several lifetimes of ski days for the average skier.

Lighten Up, its skiing.
kwillg6
February 27, 2009
Member since 01/18/2005 🔗
2,032 posts
Ok, seriously now. The glue found under sno-guns is more problematic for novices than advanced level skiers. I'm not saying that it doesn't affect upper level skiers, all I'm suggesting is that upper level skiers are more balanced on their ski and can adapt much quicker to variable conditions. It's the same as after decent natural snow, it warms up, and the sun warms and melts it over the man made base. Your skis become very "sticky." The skis will grab and release depending on shade, snow consistency, and other variables especially while running a flat ski. But by all means, avoid areas around sno-guns. I have never enjoyed the "crispy cream" effect anyway.
comprex
February 27, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: Jimski
How should I ski in order to avoid a faceplant or worse?


- Soft Knees.

Standing tall by itself is normally a good thing, but too many peeps go into rigid knee lock. That's a killer.

The funny thing about legs is that they get lazy if they don't move. So a good thing to do is keep them in some kind of motion all the time. Next time you're on a chair, see if you can spot who's got a skiing pattern of StandRigid-Wiggle-StandRigid (the Observer) and who's got one of AngryMuscleMove-PoseRigid-AngryMuscleMove (the WeightLifter). Both of those are recipes for rigid knee lock and unfun wet snow.

- Squeeze your core just before you hit.

Got this image from Guy Duquette up at Sutton. Imagine your body is a lemon wedge, the middle of the lemon at your navel. Squeeze the lemon. It's OK if your skis go forward of your hips and your head/neck shoulders go forward, the slush/wet snow/sticky impact is about to straighten all that out for you.


All of the above works for edged or unedged skis. Edged skis will not slow down as much. The lemon wedge move can be done on an edged AND carving ski; I haven't had the abdominals to do it for about 3-4 years now.
KeithT
February 27, 2009
Member since 11/17/2008 🔗
383 posts
Originally Posted By: comprex


The funny thing about legs is that they get lazy if they don't move. So a good thing to do is keep them in some kind of motion all the time.


Good advice for any terrain--particularly for those of us on carving skis. With carving skis, if the skis are not moving and on edge, what happens next is unpredictable.
skier219
February 27, 2009
Member since 01/8/2005 🔗
1,318 posts
Originally Posted By: kwillg6
Ok, seriously now. The glue found under sno-guns is more problematic for novices than advanced level skiers. I'm not saying that it doesn't affect upper level skiers, all I'm suggesting is that upper level skiers are more balanced on their ski and can adapt much quicker to variable conditions. It's the same as after decent natural snow, it warms up, and the sun warms and melts it over the man made base. Your skis become very "sticky." The skis will grab and release depending on shade, snow consistency, and other variables especially while running a flat ski. But by all means, avoid areas around sno-guns. I have never enjoyed the "crispy cream" effect anyway.


I think we're talking about different things. Yes guns can put out some gloppy snow that is tough to ski for some people. That is different than having your skis freeze or stick to the snow because they got wet. If you're going fast, that's an automatic double eject regardless of other factors. Normally it happens *after* you pass through the new wet manmade snow and re-establish contact with dry packed snow down the hill.
comprex
February 27, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: skier219
That is different than having your skis freeze or stick to the snow because they got wet. If you're going fast, that's an automatic double eject regardless of other factors. Normally it happens *after* you pass through the new wet manmade snow and re-establish contact with dry packed snow down the hill.


Fluoro is more effective for this problem than the other.
BushwackerinPA
February 27, 2009
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
sweet blog I think the guys who live in the DC area on this site would love to here it.

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Otto
February 27, 2009
Member since 11/19/1999 🔗
176 posts
Quote:
That is different than having your skis freeze or stick to the snow because they got wet. If you're going fast, that's an automatic double eject regardless of other factors. Normally it happens *after* you pass through the new wet manmade snow and re-establish contact with dry packed snow down the hill.


I have been skiing since John Kennedy was President and I can't remember experiencing this, much less to the degree advanced here. Maybe I just don't remember or I have so much mass it doesn't affect me as much. DCSki Columnist Jim Chen will likely offer an opinion on how numb I am generally or my relative body mass or both...
jimmy
February 27, 2009
Member since 03/5/2004 🔗
2,650 posts
heh padded room materials deffosho, i'm too moist from blowing snow, keep teh skies onhiedge u morans my googles are glazed over like a donut and hey doubles ejections you say???, were those markers binding by the way???? Watch out where teh maggots go and dont u ski that old moist snwo BWWWAAAinPA
JamieGrose79
February 27, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Like the Colonel said: Come on guys, let's get back on track. In between the personal give and take I think most of us have learned a few new things about skiing under the "guns" from this thread.

That was basically the goal of my post here. It was to bring some attention to the problem we had at Liberty. Thats all. I wasn't asking for reasons to make Liberty suffer. I just wanted to make sure it didn't end up happening to anyone on the mountain. It's bad enough that it happened to us, but protecting others was my main goal in this thread. Especially those who have small children skiing with them. I never would have thought of this to be an issue and with a child of my own on the way at the end of May I feel a bit more obligated to tell others about some of the dangers out there. Hopefully I didn't offend anyone. I was just pretty upset to loose a ski buddy for the season, especially with his injury being pretty nasty. It's gonna take about 3 months for him to get back to normal for one second of mistake. That's all. I talked to the Mountain manager at Liberty, Ron, and he told me he was going to go over the report from patrol and take a look at the gun setup they had that evening. He said he was glad that someone brought it to his attention so that he can help try to keep this from happening to others. He told me that it had happened to him a few years back and was pretty bruised up from it, so he wasn;t just giving lip service because he said that it royal stinks when it happens and you can't really do anything as a skier to keep it from causing yourself harm. He seemed to have a pretty good understanding as to what we have been talking about. It was a great feeling to know that Liberty was concerned and not brushing it off. Nice to see in this day in age where customer service has usually been flushed down the toilet. Go Liberty!

As far as Rod is concerned: I have skied at Blue Knob, 7 Springs, Wisp, Whitetail, Liberty, Roundtop, Massanutten, and Whistler. I spent 2 days in the backcountry at Whistler on some pretty crazy powder runs with a local Whistler Ski Patroller. I am pretty sure that Liberty being too difficult for me was not the issue. I am not trying to boast about where I have been and what I have done especially because it is very limited compared to most of the very well traveled and more experienced skiers on this board. I just don't appreciate being called a whiner or a beginner when I was trying to post about something that could happen to others. I am not going to appologize for that, and I hope that we can all drop the childish banter back and forth. It is getting quite old. I have learned alot from what others have said on here regarding this issue, and I feel that the learning aspect should be remembered as far as it's importance as a post. Plus I don't have enough hair on my head to be called Goldilocks! Dang pre-mature balding in full effect. LOL!
JamieGrose79
February 27, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Jimmy: The bindings on my Brewskis are Marker Jesters which I am told are one of the best bindings out there for freeride skis. Din set at 9.5 for my weight which is 235lbs. I am about 6'-0".

My Buddy that got hurt was riding a set of Dynastar PX12's which I know to be very good bindings. So I don't think that was the issue either. I wouldn't really label my self a Moron or a Maggot. Very kind words though indeed. Thanks.

Otto: I have never had this happen to me in 19 years of skiing. Thats why I made the post. It was very shocking. If you read some of my earlier posts on here you would see that. Not trying to be rude, but it is very likely that it has never happened to you either and I hope it never does.
BushwackerinPA
February 27, 2009
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
but you want to be a maggot. I doubt theyll let you in though, you dont know the secret handshake. wink

Jester arent the 'best" they are pretty good but if you want to get technical the Look PX15 and PX18 actually have a wider screw pattern than the supposely 'wide' jesters duke.

and looks still have much better retention than any other binding on the market.

I'm in every sense of a word a maggot, and you cant call yourself that you have to be called that.
JamieGrose79
February 27, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
I have some Look Jibs on my Fujatives and I love them. I know the Looks rock and I am sure that the other PX15 and PX18 are probably better. I really like how easy it is to pop out of my bindings when finished skiing with the Markers. I haven't had any pre-mature releases with the Markers yet until this situation. I am pretty sure it was the heaviness of the snow that did it though, especially since it happend to my buddies PX12's.
P.S. I didn't know Maggots had hands!
comprex
February 27, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
To my mind, this:

Originally Posted By: Otto

I have been skiing since John Kennedy was President


Explains this:

Quote:

and I can't remember experiencing this, much less to the degree advanced here.


You're simply more on edge and you flex the skis deeper.

This syndrome is *notorious* among XC skiers who cross low-level puddly snow. The moisture clings to the less-flexed parts of the ski (in the XC skier case, it is the underfoot camber pocket). They call it 'clumping'.

On alpine skis, the equivalent is when someone is flat-gliding on a ski that is pretty long and stiff for their weight.
RodSmith
February 27, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
Yeah, ski through a creek, and you will find huge clumps on your bases as soon as you get back on snow.

I haven't had a heel binding release in almost twenty years.

The trick is to thrust one ski out if front of you when you hit the wet stuff. My ski buddy can't do that because he has alpine bindings, but we both enjoy ungroomed man-made. We seek it out. Often the only interesting snow on the mountain. We laugh about how everybody else is avoiding it and we get all the fresh tracks.

Jamie, you seem like an alright guy. In my eyes you are a maggot. smile Making Liberty fix your skis was contemptible, but other than that, you are OK by me.

Yes, it is a good idea to enlighten others about this hazard. Thanks for doing that. And congratulations on the impending fatherhood!

I never said I broke my collarbone skiing. I just said I broke it "that bad", meaning bad enough that it did not heal without surgery.
BushwackerinPA
February 27, 2009
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
tele you have the maggot mentality, jamie does not yet.

first of all if he posted this over there could imagine what would happen smile.
RodSmith
February 27, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
I guess that is a complement. laugh Thanks, Josh, but I'm a ten day a year skier. Not maggot worthy.
BushwackerinPA
February 27, 2009
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
Originally Posted By: RodSmith
I guess that is a complement. laugh Thanks, Josh, but I'm a ten day a year skier. Not maggot worthy.


its about mentality, not how often someone skis.
RodSmith
February 27, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
I'm mental, but I'm still afraid to post over there. Home mountain, Liberty. Favorite ski, Elan SCX. Enjoy telemarking sticky whales... Haha. They would have some fun with me.
JamieGrose79
February 27, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Well BushwackerinPA. I really don't have the mentallity to care about being a Maggot or not. I basically love to ski as much as humanly possible. I have been out about 45 times this year, and I know it wouldn't make me a maggot to ski alot and still act like a tool. I guess I don't fit in the Maggot clique with some of the others and that is fine. I'll stick to chatting with Pep Fujas and Chris Benchetler. I am pretty sure they find me as the so called Maggot worthy.
RodSmith
February 27, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
Jamie, notice the guys who ski in TGR's films don't hang out on TGR's forums. If you are bro brah with Pep, you are above maggot. Thanks for sharing with us common folk!
BushwackerinPA
February 28, 2009
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
Originally Posted By: RodSmith
Jamie, notice the guys who ski in TGR's films don't hang out on TGR's forums. If you are bro brah with Pep, you are above maggot. Thanks for sharing with us common folk!



umm

chompface killar, ingrid, alkasquaw, provo, cliff_huckable.

you dont know who they are but stay around long enough youll see. they all hang out there but not with their "real names"

if you think you have the maggot mentality start posting over there they are all about whining about stuff like liberty's snowmaking.
JamieGrose79
February 28, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
I wasn't trying to prove to you that I am above common folk. SO donb't take it personally. I am just telling you about a few of the guys that I talk with regularly back and forth. We aren't best buds, but when we ask each other questions alot via email wehave never had the issue where someone calls me out as a whiner, goldilocks, loser, or anyhting else like that. They atually look forward to answering some questions and pushing the sport ahead further by helping others gain some knowledge. Unlike here where if someone feels that in their opinion they reign supreme on a topic they will just go off on you for talking about your own view. This place is starting to stink worse than Massanutten! It is almost the same as Bushwacker telling me the Jesters aren't the best out there. How does he know what will work best for me and what I will like. Maybe he likes coffee, I hate coffee see what I am saying here?
JamieGrose79
February 28, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Bushwacker. I would love to meet up with you sometime and we can have a face to face meeting instead of this over the internet crap. You can look for my Brewskis anyday and if you see me introduce yourself. I am pretty sure that if you met me in person you would see that I am just a regular guy with regular values who doesn't try to piss people off all the time. I think alot of it is how I post and not how I would normally talk. Lost in translation a bit I guess. If you don't like me at all then ohh well. Like I said, I wont be losing any sleep at night over it.
JamieGrose79
February 28, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
By telling me to whine to TGR formus about snowmaking are you saying that DCSKI is one of the elite forums out there? Teton Gravity is a joke. Epicski is awesome. Newschoolers is chock full of nuts and gaper punks. I would not call DCski something to write home to momma about though. It is nice here but not as cool as Epic ski etc.
comprex
February 28, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: RodSmith
Yeah, ski through a creek, and you will find huge clumps on your bases as soon as you get back on snow.


Were you ever told or shown the little quick dance-step/jig from one foot to the other and back that was supposed to carry you through re-freezing snow on XC skis?

I was thinking last night whether the Alpine drill of 1000 steps might be appropriate here.

Quote:

I haven't had a heel binding release in almost twenty years.


Yeah, yeah, rub it in. FWIW, they were 1999 1018s.

Quote:

The trick is to thrust one ski out if front of you when you hit the wet stuff.


Scissoring! Hah! Excellent!
JamieGrose79
February 28, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
Plus I wouldn't really wanna fit in with the Maggots at TGR anyway!
JamieGrose79
February 28, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
You can't do anything when you hit the wet stuff. It blasts you out of your skis in a millisecond. If you could do anything to prevent it you would be superhuman and able to bend space and time. I know that Rod hasn't had a rear ejection in 20 years, but seriously I doubt anyone could stop this from happening when you hit this crap. Isn't Scissoring what Lesbians do to each other? LOL
comprex
February 28, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: JamieGrose79
You can't do anything when you hit the wet stuff. It blasts you out of your skis in a millisecond.


<lostcausesigh> smile

I'm off to ski now.


JamieGrose79
February 28, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
It is comments like this that I never understand and it is what makes things get out of control. When you say (LostCauseSigh) are you saying This is a lost cause telling me about this because I am not paying attention to you? Or are you saying that it is a lost cause trying to get the info out to others? I read your info on wax and I think it helped me and I think I will try it out.
RodSmith
February 28, 2009
Member since 10/22/2004 🔗
318 posts
Is scissoring the right word? I used it that way once and Jer made fun of me, though not as crudely as Jamie zinged you! Haha. I used scissor to mean go into a Telemark position. Entering the deceleration zone with more of a stride forward of the front ski versus pulling back the rear ski is the tip I was trying to convey. The only reason I never release from heel binding is because I don't use them. They are dangerous. Haha

Jamie this was a more high minded and respectful forum than Epic (which is saying a lot) before you and I started posting here regularly. Sorry for giving you a hard time.
JamieGrose79
March 1, 2009
Member since 01/10/2009 🔗
108 posts
It's all good Rod. No troubles. After all when posting on the internet everyone is always right no matter what. I think that is why we all can get attitudes really easily when posting. So I know how it goes on here. No worries mate!
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