Edge Tuning Toys
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6 users
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Bumps
January 26, 2009
Member since 12/29/2004 🔗
538 posts
I decided to go all the way and get edge tuning tools. I practiced a little last week on my old kastles and decided I need some vises to help steady everything up. I order some of those this week and expect to move to my regular skis this weekend. I went with beast tuning tools and the vise I ordered was a toko World Cup Vise with tip & tail supports. I also got a snowboard atachment for the vise so I can do my sons board later. I decided to go with a 1 degree base and 3 degree edge. based on research and ski type. just curious what other folks use and setups used here in mid atlantic. I never seem to get time to get them done before I go and there is not a shop here where I live so I usually end up going longer then I should between tunes. Therefore, I decided to learn how to edge myself. I have done waxing for some time and do some deburring and edge polishing, but normally relied upon professionals to setup edges and base structure(Which I will probably still do for at least a little while), so I am moving into a whole new area.
comprex
January 27, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts

1/3 is gold for around here.

Did you get a true bar?
Otto
January 27, 2009
Member since 11/19/1999 🔗
176 posts
Yup, A true bar is essential to show if your base is convex (unlikely) or concave and to show if your edges are railed.

I use 1 and 1 but mostly because I tune often and am lazy. Sharp is what matters.

Get some spring clamps to hold your file to the beast guide.
comprex
January 27, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
My secret stash of tuning gear supplies:

http://www.sciplus.com/ Gobs of spring clamps and things.

My other secret stash of tuning gear supplies:

http://store.burton.com/Tools_and_Tuning/PRD_10542/Burton+Fileguide+Kit.jsp
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skier219
January 27, 2009
Member since 01/8/2005 🔗
1,318 posts
I run 1/3 on my hardpack carvers, 1/2 for my freeride skis, and 1/1 on my PEs (park skis).

It's a tradeoff between ice performance at 3 and durability at 1.
Bumps
January 27, 2009
Member since 12/29/2004 🔗
538 posts
I did not get a true bar. I thought that was more for doing the base prep and repair.
Clay
January 27, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
Even if you don't do base work, a true bar is nice to have to let you know when to take them in.

I run 1/2 on both my carving and freeride skis, but I polish the edges every couple of days.
ridenski - DCSki Supporter
January 28, 2009
Member since 04/11/2004 🔗
82 posts
While we're on the subject, I got this email from Tramdock just today.

http://www.backcountry.com/store/newslet...&mv_pc=r105

Haven't seen the vids yet but they look informative. I keep saying I'm going to start learning to tune but so far I haven't gone farther than stealing a clothes iron from the closet and dripping on wax.
comprex
January 28, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: skier219

It's a tradeoff between ice performance at 3 and durability at 1.


2 parts in 88? How much of a durability tradeoff is that, really?

I don't see it.

If you think you can make a stiffness under bending moment argument, so that the difference is blown up to the fourth power, please do.
Clay
January 28, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
While I've only be tuning for a few years (4 I think) I believe that the theory is a 90 degree angle (1/1) will last the longest. The further you go away from that (more acute) the more quickly the edge will wear.
comprex
January 28, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Originally Posted By: Clay
While I've only be tuning for a few years (4 I think) I believe that the theory is a 90 degree angle (1/1) will last the longest. The further you go away from that (more acute) the more quickly the edge will wear.


Clay, I understand that is the wisdom and I am questioning it.

The difference in quantity of material across any section is something like 2.2% so if we were to attempt to sand these things with sandpaper tilted to mid-enclosed-angle we would see a 2% difference in wear time.

If we were to put these things into an etching bath, the wear rate would be almost identical, as the surfaces on either side are almost the same area.

So, what is the mechanism of wear that makes a noticeable difference?


skier219
January 28, 2009
Member since 01/8/2005 🔗
1,318 posts
It's not the wear, it's impact/chip resistance. I hear the same thing when it comes to chef's knives. People fuss over tiny angle differences there as well.
Clay
January 28, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
Agreed, by using Heron's formula we find that the difference in the total area of the two triangles (90 degree vs 88) is only ~2.379%, but I think we are less concerned about the area and more interested in the thickness of the material at the angle.

I have always been taught (and have practiced for 20 some odd years now) that when you put an edge on a knife or a woodworking tool that you want to put on the widest possible bevel that will do the job, because at the microscopic level the thinner the bevel, the quicker the edge will become striated (which we call 'dull')

I don't have any of my woodworking sharpening references up here at TL, but I can look up a more accurate decription when I get home.
comprex
January 29, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts

Clay look up edge foldover if you can, also?
Clay
January 29, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
Will do
Bumps
January 30, 2009
Member since 12/29/2004 🔗
538 posts
This is in line with my current problem. I am sure I set the edge angles correctly and polished using a 440 grit diamond stone, but I don't seem to be getting the "sharpness". The file seems to have gotten to it's smooth point and I really don't think I am looking to keep filing material away, so I guess I am not getting the edges deburred enough. I am thinking of picking up a more fine stone in the 800-1200 grit range to see if that helps. Based on some additional reading at o'dark 30 last night that seems to be what most folks do. However just curious if you think I am not being patient enough with my current stone or if I am missing something else. My current process is to set the base bevel angle with file and then set the side edges with File using a guide in both cases. I go one direction in segments until smooth. I then switch to the diamond stone in the same guides and repeat the process. I am uncertain if you can go back and forth with a stone or if you keep the same single direction, but it doesn't seem to matter since it is not directional like a file. I then would run a gummy stone along the edge to eliminate any leftover bur's or detune ends. But I just don't seem to get the edge I expected, before getting to this last step. One thing I can say until you start tuning yourself you really don't understand how nicked up your edges can get (Particlarly from early season skiing). I am thinking of video taping my technique and get feedback to see if I am doing something wrong, but not sure I am up to that type of abuse. eek
Clay
January 30, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
The steps that you described is the basic process I follow except I will start with a 200 stone if the edges are nicked. I also prefer use all ceramic polishing stones rather than switching to diamond stones, but that is one of my own idiosyncrasies and will not affect your final edge. Using diamond stones will actually get you there more quickly.

I go both directions for everything except for the last pass (I use a 1200 grit stone) to take the burr off. You are not trying to get the "sharp", just polish out the nicks. The very experienced tuners use their fingernails to see if they've got the edge how they want it, but it can be tricky until you know what you're looking for. This is done by running your fingernail across the edge and seeing if it shaves a bit off. If so, you're done. The way I learned what this felt like was by using a SkiVisions Tuning Stick that I got from Tognar. It's a really simple way to see if you've got a clean edge.

It is also possible that the sidewall of the ski is getting in the way and that you're not actually taking as much off the edge as you think you are. If you are hitting the sidewall when you are trying to sharpen, you will have to trim it back with a sidewall trimmer.

I live in Stafford (although it feels like I live at Timberline right now grin) so if you still aren't getting the edge you think you should have, maybe we can hook up and tune together some time.
comprex
January 30, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
- can you shave your fingernail after you're done filing? You should be able to. It won't be smooth (polished) but it will be done.

- 'the file seems to have gotten to its smooth point' is an interesting way to describe things. I use a procedure much like Clay's so the file is already pulling smooth with no catches on the first stroke. (I am using a 2nd cut file, CORRECTION:16tpcm, or 40 tpi) I can (and do) take clear 2-inch shavings off the steel until the edge is sharp enough to shave that fingernail.

- you may need to skyve (shave) your sidewalls back. Diamonds are not very agressive removers of plastic, mostly the plastic just clogs them up sufficiently to lift them off the steel edge.

I have overlapping scars where I've sliced my pinky open with the finished edges. These things are bloody *sharp*.
comprex
January 30, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
BTW, I think the diamonds do a pretty good job of deburring after the file already.

I don't think diamonds make big new burrs themselves. I save the gummi for rust removal or for after a machine grind.
Bumps
January 30, 2009
Member since 12/29/2004 🔗
538 posts
Originally Posted By: comprex
- I can (and do) take clear 2-inch shavings off the steel until the edge is sharp enough to shave that fingernail. ......

.... may need to skyve (shave) your sidewalls back.

...I have overlapping scars where I've sliced my pinky open with the finished edges. These things are bloody *sharp*.


I dont understand what you mean about "2-inch shavings off the steel". I do have a tool to remove sidewall material and did that. I don't think that is the issue. It sounds like I may not be filing enough. I will try to go a little farther on my old skis tonight. First time I ever want to slice my pinky.
comprex
January 30, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Quote:

I dont understand what you mean about "2-inch shavings off the steel". I do have a tool to remove sidewall material and did that.


The file is pulling smoothly against the steel, and, because the file runs smoothly, the steel comes off in these beautiful 2-inch long helical curls that look like little tightly wound springs, about as wide as the lead in a mechanical pencil, 0.5mm?

It's almost therapeutic.
Clay
January 31, 2009
Member since 04/11/2006 🔗
555 posts
Wow! That's a lot of metal coming off! With a cut that aggressive how long do your edges last?
comprex
January 31, 2009
Member since 04/11/2003 🔗
1,326 posts
Not really that much metal (the shavings are broad and long but super-thin, a phyllo crust of steel if you will) and I don't use the file except when I truly need to. Maybe twice a season on the rock skis?

FWIW, I never make more than 10 passes per edge with the diamonds, and I use the 600 grit every other ski day.

I wear through the bases much quicker; my 2002 Volkl bases were down to about 3 paper sheets' thickness and still plenty edge. Those actually had a rep for thin bases, but still. The 2002 Tuas and 2002 Ogasakas are still going strong.


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