A friend and I made the ~2 hr trip to Snowshoe today in hopes of some good Fall skiing. Needless to say, we were not let down.

I woke up this morning at 3am. After working from 4a to 9a, my friend and I made a straight shot to the Shoe. We arrived around 11 and made it onto the slopes by 11:30. Temperatures were awfully cold, even with a good bit of layers. It really is hard to believe that it is only November.

First let me say that there were "6" slopes open. After making 2 runs I discovered that it would be more appropriate to say that there were 2 "runs" open. A beginner's run and an intermediate run. The intermediate run consisted of skiing down from the top of the Ballhooter lift onto the Spruce Glades area, which then connected with a green run to take you to the bottom of Ballhooter. This run was pretty good and is where we spent most of our day. The top left side of the run had a lot of nice packed/loose powder on it, making it a lot of fun to ski. The right side of the run skied very fast, which also was a lot of fun. We were able to ski this one like it was 2 different runs (hey, you have to when that is your only intermediate option). The green run down the mountain consisted of doing a little pole pushing to get from Ballhooter over to the run that is adjacent to the Shaver's Center. Once you were over there this run was too bad either (other than being crowded sometimes). There were also several "closed" slopes that looked to have been poached an awful lot. I wasn't feeling squirrely, so I stayed off of them.

Overall, I am VERY glad that we made it out today. I feel that the combination of the 2 runs down the mountain made for a good time skiing, and surprisingly it didn't get boring or monotonous. If you are considering making the trip, I would recommend it, as it is a good deal for $29. One thing that I did notice (Craig also mentioned it) is that there were TONS of kids out on snowboards. Every bit of 5:1 like Craig said. I'm not sure why, but they were out in full force. What made is so bad is that they all seemed to be between the ages of 15 and 25. Needless to say it didn't take long for them to get on your nerves...... Oh well, IT WAS A GOOD DAY!!!

Here are a few shots..

Driving up


Driving up


Driving up


Driving up, looking out


Top of Ballhooter


This picture was taken on November 22nd, 2008. I Swear!!


Poached....


Saw this nice 8 point on the way down the mountain


Not sure that Smokey is correct. I've never seen snow catch fire...

David,
Thanks for the pics. Cupp and Lower Shays are plainly visable in one of the pictures on the "drive up".
By the way, why "8-22-08" in the thread title?
The Colonel

I heard that Snowshoe got some serious dumpage the past few days. If it wasn't so darn far to get there, I'd be on there myself.

Yeah, looks like a big "whoops" in the title - shouldn't that be "11-22-08"?

Still, those pictures look like what I'd expect to see from Lat Jan to early Feb, not November, and especially not before TG!

Nice report! I am glad you got some pictures. Right now, Snowshoe looks snowier than most Vermont resorts. I am tempted to head back up next week, or in mid-December for a multi-day trip if the weather holds out.

skier219,
Thought we had lost you. Had not seen a post in forever.
Other than Massanutten, where are you planning/hoping to go this year?
The Colonel

David,
I noticed the "Snowshoe Forever Wild" sign in your first picture was no longer spanning the front drive up the mountain.
Is this something new, or was it moved sometime ago and I just have not noticed since I usually take the back way up?
The Colonel

That is awesome, wonder what will be open on Monday? I had planned on driving up.

That one poached trails looks like it could be opened, especially if they would have groomed that down into a base and let is snow again on top of it. Imagine what 24 hours of guns would do just to get it going. They open with 6 inch bases in NC.

The sign had been moved by the begining of last season...

Also, I just read in the Snowshoe Snow report that they are predicting up to 16 trails open for Thanksgiving. For those that have skied this weekend, does it look like theres any chance that will include Skip Jack and Grabhammer? Brad

Yeah, that's the product of waking up at 3 and working til 9, then skiing til 4:00. I am going to bed right now and probably won't wake up for a while....



I noticed that too. I'm not sure why they did that. The only reason I can think of is that they had something brought in on a truck that wouldn't fit under it, so they moved it out of the way (just a guess)....

Way to go get it David! Great pics. It actually looks nice and sunny. How warm was it?

Thanks for the great pics, David! Really fires up my skiing Jones. Looks like a bluebird day ... but 'way too cold for bluebirds.

Woody

I wish Snowshoe would just remove this sign.

I understand, and can largely accept, the fundamental compromises with wilderness that are made when a ski area is built. But let's call a spade a spade. To pretend that the Snowshoe development is "wild" seems to be blind, arrogant and condescending. I ski joyfully but I can't escape the compromises with the environment that my sport necessarily entails.

Woody

I agree -- couldn't have said it better myself. They built a city up there, with all the associated water, sewer, and utility burdens. I enjoy skiing up there when it's good, but the real estate development is a blight on the mountain. I feel the same way about some of the ridgeline condos at Wintergreen. We were hiking in that area last weekend, and the condos on the ridgeline overlooking the Highlands area are a real travesty amongst the rest of the natural scenery. I don't think they could have made them stick out any worse. That and the blue roof of the Ski Barn down in the valley really jumped out at us as an eyesore. I think you can see the Ski Barn roof from space....

BTW, this is a brief hijack, but a small micro-brewery is being build right next door to the Ski Barn at Wintergreen. Apres ski anyone??

And while I'm at it, I noticed that Meck's Home Bakery on Rt. 66 in Cass has closed (apparently because of the owner's health problems). That is sad -- they had the best sticky buns I've ever tasted, and it was a real treat to stop there on the way to/from Snowshoe. They will be missed!

Why is Snowshoe not opening any more trails today? They have had over a week solid of snowmaking, not to mention 3 FEET of snow. I know the natural alone isn't enough for a base, but SURELY the trails that have had aggressive snowmaking (with temps in the teens and single digits at night) could be opened?

I say all of this because I may be heading up tomorrow and they are still saying the same 6 probably will be the only ones open.

Maybe someone here can give me a reason why they are not opening trails. Think it's a man-power issue? No more lifts would need to be opened drop the rope on Ballhooter, Gandy Dancer, or many more though and I am sure the groomer crew would be working this week anyway in preparation for the original opening date.

Come on Snowshoe!!

It is most likely a man-power issue. Yesterday I was talking to a lift attendant and she was laughing because that isn't her normal job. She actually works in an office at the top of the mountain, but because they are short on attendants she was helping them load the lifts. I am assuming that they had to call in several workers a week early and it would probably be a stretch for them to get more workers to open up more lifts.

Normally I would complain too, but from what I saw yesterday I feel they are doing their best to offer as much skiing as possible. Plus, they are building a HUGE base on a lot of trails, as there was snow making EVERYWHERE on the mountain. Barring any extenuating circumstances, they should have plenty of early skiing this year and a very big base that will last well into April.

Remember...it is pre-Thanksgiving. Be thankful for what we have which is far more than normal at this time of year. I expect they have manpower shortages as well as the desire to maximize the cold weather for a strong base later in the season, especially during the Christmas holidays.
The Colonel

I can confirm what David said, that substitute staff are filling in to run the lifts and check tickets. In addition, all the facilities (food, services, etc) are not open yet. If that's any indication, it means they probably don't yet have the patrollers and grooming staff to maintain extra trails.

Based on what I saw Friday, they are still making snow on the trails they plan to open for the "real" opener next week. So that's another reason the trails are not open yet. Given the complexity of the operation there, I don't think they can rush it much more than they already have.

Don't forget they opened a week early and are only charging $29. I am thankful they did this for us.

You may want to check the weather carefully for tomorrow. There is a remote chance for some under-developed snow (ie, rain).

I went over to Snowshoe on Thursday morning, got there still snowing, spent Friday and just came back today. Totally agree with David, two runs. But well worth it. Had to do some stuff at my condo, so my time was also chore-full. The runs were outstanding - sad part was the wholesale poaching that was going on. I wish the resort started bringing people up on charges.

Why do you have an issue with people poaching the freshies at a ski area?

Avalanche dangers??

First of all: It's trespassing. Plain and simple. Second, it's inconsiderate of others. And it exposes a wanton selfishness on the part of the skier.

These slopes have not been prepared, cleared or made safe. There are rocks, hoses, equipment, and even people working on them. They are not patrolled. In the case of Snowshoe, there were a minimum number of ski or safety patrollers.

Although it may seem just like enjoying freshies is the good thing to do, look at it from the other side, please. The resort has liability, which means they have to go patrol and look out for the poachers, while real emergencies may go unheeded.

It is also evident that some of the ski workers at Snowshoe this past weekend, in the process of working the slopes so WE could all enjoy them, had to watch out for careening poachers who can't think outside of their own egoism.

There may be no "avalanche" dangers at Snowshoe, but yes, I saw a poaching skier at Moonshine dislodge an ice bolder about four feet in diameter that came close to hurting others as it rolled into the open trail. That inconsiderate skier probably thought nothing of his ride other than he had fun. He didn't care about anyone else. And he probably wondered on his next ride, just how that gigantic ball of ice and snow came to rest on a run, when in fact it was his careless action that did it.

As skiers and boarders, we need to look and think about how our actions may affect others. It is plain consideration of other people. Is that too much to ask?

I'm glad I don't have to shovel that condo on the 3rd floor out!

No avalanche danger? You should go check out the other thread about the slide at Wisp.

It would be comical to arrive at your condo for the weekend, slide open the drapes to enjoy the third-floor view, and see a wall of snow.

Let's hope that porch structure is strong enough to hold all the snow. I wouldn't want to be standing underneath that slab....

Wow! great report and pics! I will be out this weekend! cant wait!

Looking at the long-term forecast over the nest 10 days or so, there looks like a couple of days of underdeveloped snow, but both snowmaking and natural snow conditions will continue unabated. Hope hope hope the winter patterns continue

Hopefully the rain will come to an end in the next few hours. Here's a realtime weather station located in the Silver Creek Lodge. Temperature's just slightly above freezing now.

Snowshoe weather

Thanks a million! That's a handy URL to have bookmarked. Many times there are wide disparities between reporting and reality at Snowshoe. Let it snow!

eh dude chill out.

the kids down at wisp werent prepared for that stuff, I dont think someone who actually has toured in avalanche terrain would be prepared for that stuff at wisp. I am sure there is no sign at the bottom of wisp telling people they cant hike. these kids were in the gray area of the law. they went hiking for some turn, so lets arrest them? personal responiablity anyone?

On poaching run at a open mid Atlantic resort. a slope doesnt have to be 'prepared" or "checked" to go skiing on. In case you didnt know you dont have to wait for every rock to be removed and the snow smashed down by groomers to ski it. On poaching if you willing to take whatever happens and never go after that resort if you get hurt or die, then by all means poach.

I have poached to ski powder, I have even been chased by ski patrol at snowshoe for skiing that one gnarly lift line. In the end though I see it as something that should be opened, and they should stop catering to the LCD of skiers all the time. At Hidden Valley I use to ski runs that were closed because people might get hurt skiing powder. They had great coverage but because they werent groomed yet they were closed. Damn straight I poached. Ok sure I am above average skier that might be able to take care of myself alittle bit better. You might say what happens if someone follows my lead? I did it so it ok for them to do it right? WRONG! Well those slopes might not be for everyone, but if you do monkey see monkey do and arent good enough or knowledgeable enough to do it you deserve whats coming to you. what ever happens to you is your fault not my fault again people need to take personal responsibility. you mdae the choice not me.

disclaimer - I am Libertarian-Darwinist I believe if your stupid enough to hurt or kill yourself noone should try to make laws to prevent you from doing so.

also dont bring in closures at western resort because thats a different ball game, your poaching can kill OTHER people. Other people who were following the rules.

Dude, I'm pretty chill other than the fact that you're making my and everyone else's lift ticket jump up in price. In that way, you're stealing from me. And I don't like it.

Sort of funny, Bush, but I would bet that either you or your estate (if Darwin ever caught up with you) would be the first to sue the resort for not immediately coming to your aid if you dismembered yourself around the stones under Ballhooter lift. As to your claims:

"they went hiking for some turn, so lets arrest them? personal responiablity anyone?"

They are not in a public park. They are in a reservation or private property where they pay to ski, hike or bike in designated areas. Otherwise they're tresspassing and frankly, I'd love to see a resort come down and in the least, clip the tickets. Worst, have them arrested.
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"a slope doesnt have to be 'prepared" or "checked" to go skiing on. In case you didnt know you dont have to wait for every rock to be removed and the snow smashed down by groomers to ski it. On poaching if you willing to take whatever happens and never go after that resort if you get hurt or die, then by all means poach."

Yes the slope has to be checked. Yes it has to be checked for obstructions, downed trees, out-of-place hoses, ad nauseam. The ski resort assumes liability, which varies between states but which is getting more and more lopsided on the injured party's behalf. Even if you say that you're not going to sue, NOW, tell me that when you're a paraplegic and your insurance gets cancelled with a $200,000 annual medical bill. Then, all of us responsible skiers get to pay stratospheric lift fees so you can act irresponsibly. And look at it this way. Your lack of judgement forces the ski resort to go chasing after you to the detriment of someone else who may be seriously hurt. I know you probably don't care, but the folks who chased you down at Snowshoe could have been tending someone with a serious injury. That could have been your brother or sister. I know, your "right" to a freshie is more important than someone's life. Eh?

In 2002, an out-of-bounds skier in SLC received a settlement of $800K after he slammed into a non-padded tower and died. His estate sued and won.

Colorado's Ski Safety Act now mandates a $1,000 fine for poaching. If you don't believe me, please check this http://www.wildsnow.com/222/the-1000-ski-run/

And how about you poaching on a run where there are people working and you kill an unsuspecting worker who doesn't see you coming? Bet you wouldn't feel the least remorse, would you? You had your fun skiing the freshie and he dies and leaves a wife and two kids to fend for themselves. Happy now?

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"I have even been chased by ski patrol at snowshoe for skiing that one gnarly lift line. "

And frankly, I hope they caught up with you and clipped your ticket.

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"In the end though I see it as something that should be opened, and they should stop catering to the LCD of skiers all the time. At Hidden Valley I use to ski runs that were closed because people might get hurt skiing powder. They had great coverage but because they werent groomed yet they were closed. Damn straight I poached. Ok sure I am above average skier that might be able to take care of myself alittle bit better."

So you're the self-appointed ruler of the universe. There are a million reasons why a run may be closed. There may be a large water spill under the snow. Rocks, whatever. Again, what happens if you're hurt and they don't find you for three days? Who pays for the rescue, helicopters, state police, volunteers, etc? We all do.

" disclaimer - I am Libertarian-Darwinist I believe if your stupid enough to hurt or kill yourself noone should try to make laws to prevent you from doing so."

I totally agree with you, but you should exercise that right on public lands. Not on private property. And as I said before, we will all end up paying for your rescue and medical bills. Now, if you were an honest, true libertarian, you would obey the law, as it is all of us, with our tax dollars, who will finance the rescue party and the medical bills as the result of your reckless behavior.

It was very wet today...went home before noon......

Wow, I could imagine. Today would have been a day that I would not have been excited to get out there on the slopes. I love to ski, but can't think of much that is more miserable than skiing in the rain. Cold & Wet SUCK!!!

you implied I am well off, well my family is in the 100-200k range a year not poor but not trustafarian territoty either. I would not sue them and niether would my family I can say that with great confidence because of this true story.

My dad wrecked riding a BMX track with me in 1994, he broke his c7 vertebrate , complete spinal cord injury, he is a quadriplegic for life.



it was his fault he messed up a jump. so many lawyers wanted to sue the owners of the track for a faulty track design. He never felt that was right even though he could of won. It was his fault not theirs.



do they let people hike there anytime of the year? do they let people ride bike there with out paying a fee(assuming they arent riding the lifts)? can you go for a picnic there? can you go have snowball fight with you 3 year old at the bottom of the hill with out buying lift ticket? the answer is yes to all of the above. those people are tresspassing as much as the hikers at wisp.




My dad is a quadriplegic who lost his insurance. We(he) didnt sue the track. He went after the insurance company. He won that suit and got grandfather in to that insurance company.

the patroler can just as easily make the choice not to give choice, its a victimless crime at best. and if they dont chase after you they cant get hurt. Its there final choice not mine.



eh yeah if I was president that guy get nothing. Thats the right way. the issue people are stupid, juries are dumber. they awarded based on sympathy not on what was right.




I believe you, in utah you can and quite often will go to jail. but this is because the avalanche you set off can kill someone else, if not alot of somewhere else. like I said in the first post dont bring western laws into this.




Id feel remorse its my fault but arent you taking alot of ifs into the equation now? worker on the hill, Id think you see them, and if you didnt see them what are the chance of hitting them? if you didnt see them and you did hit them the chance of 'killing' them are still really slim. to many ifs for a valid point there.

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its was the last run, but they never caught up with me.

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this is you most vaild point in the entire thread. the fact that if someone get hurt every pays. I cant agree with you anymore, but using your logic noone should ever do anything remotely risky ever. What a fun place this world would be like that.



I do often ski on public lands, and I do earn my turns. I will even continue to so in the east as I did in utah. I would obey more laws if they were made with libertarian principles. Our current laws are based to much a nanny state that people cant take care of themselves, and expect the goverment to make everything right. I fear Obama leads more along that path because apparently that what people want.

Lou also I just want you to know, I believe for what I just said, but I am debating for the sake of debate, Id probably have fun skiing with you and have no ill feeling towards a fellow skier.

Lou,
With you all the way!! When you break the rules or law you take your chances, but you also place all those around in jeapordy. In our society we don't get to choose which laws to obey and which to ignore without any consequences. Skiing was a genteel sport with "rules" that made it more pleasant for all. Those that do not obey the rules deserve to have the book thrown at them if caught. They endanger all of us, and ultimately it is we who pay the bill via higher fees, more rules, an unpleasant experience, pain, etc. Before anyone jumps me, I am not blaming the boarders or anyone or "group" new to winter slope fun. But once the rules are understood, they should be obeyed. I agree with Lou that those that ignore the rules should have their tickets either punched or pulled. Maybe the resorts would lose a few customers, but the gain in more customers resulting from enforcing the rules, making the experience better for all, I believe would far outweigh the loss of a few renegades. Or maybe we need a resort that caters only to the renegades.
The Colonel

Pretty powerful post there, Josh. Didn't know most of that...

Sounds to me your dad is a pretty strong role model. Congrats.

Own up to your own responsibility; easy to say, tough to do.

There does have to be some balance between the Helter-Skelter, anarchists rule and the make sure your underwear is ironed daily crowds. I frankly don't believe in underwear, but the occasional limit to what you can do is prolly needed. And besides, I appreciate a good yard sale (as long as I'm not involved.)

why is any limit good? in anything?

artificial limits are just that artificial.

I would agree that resorts should close runs that are truly dangerous. IE thin cover, unseen snowmaking lines, extreme exposure, uneven groomed snow.

the problem is they lose their creditability with good skiers when they close off tree runs, close off runs because they arent groomed, close off runs because there are jumps elect. If they wanted their closures to be respected. they should stop trying protect people and just let people ski.

I honor western areas closures because they dont play nanny state.

Well, by that reasoning, Darwin is the ultimate limit. If you are willing to pay the price and accept the consequences, than that works. Buuutttt, very few even try to talk that talk, and fewer still walk that walk. I ain't your dang judge or jury, but if that works for you, then work it.

To throw a half-essed argument out there, kids need limits to reinforce their boundaries and to function as somewhat normal adults. Brain evolution 101 with some toilet training thrown in. Maybe some semblance of limits are needed for the 20 percent of the human population who are absolute effin morons. Kids, in another words. I'm making conservative use of the 80-20 rule, cuz I think more than 20 percent qualify. I think I'm wandering here.........

Bush, I still disagree with you vehemently. First, I consider you all a role model of responsibility vis a vis your dad's injuries. We'd all be in a better world if all of us took responsibility for our actions.

But the fact is that we don't live in a world where most of us take responsibility for our own stupidity, but instead go out and find the nearest ambulance lawyer to sue. And that's why the resorts have to enforce out-of-bounds areas, given that perhaps not you, but almost everyone else will seek to recover damages even if it was caused by their own lack or responsibility. So you're asking all the resorts to treat you differently? Come on, you and I know they can't. My case for enforcement stands.

As to your assertion of "do they let people hike there anytime of the year? do they let people ride bike there with out paying a fee(assuming they arent riding the lifts)? can you go for a picnic there? can you go have snowball fight with you 3 year old at the bottom of the hill with out buying lift ticket? the answer is yes to all of the above. those people are tresspassing as much as the hikers at wisp."

The answer is a rotund NO or perhaps stretching it, a maybe. If you want to hike or bike in many resorts, such as Snowshoe, you DO have to buy a permit. That's an exclusive economic reservation and your poaching is simply, theft. In many others, it's private property. Shouldn't I expect you to obey my rules if you come to my house? Don't I have the right to demand that you respect some limits in my house if you're my guest? Same thing in corporate property. Why can't you understand that? If Snowshoe, Wisp, Canaan or whoever, allowed every bozo to do what they wanted, it would be carnage. No one would be safe. Is that what you want?
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"the patroler can just as easily make the choice not to give choice, its a victimless crime at best. and if they dont chase after you they cant get hurt. Its there final choice not mine"

No it is NOT a victimless crime. What if you hurt a worker? Suppose you're poaching on Lower Shays and you come flying like a bat out of hell out of the dropoff and land on the head of the worker that's trying to make the trail safe for you. What then? Widowmaker has the same out-of-sight dropoff. You come down thinking you're going to do a neat jump on freshies and the next thing you know you exact the ultimate price on the head of a family whose resources are way less than yours.

And how about my previous example which I witnessed? A poacher dislodging a 4 X 4 boulder that ran down Moonshine and almost hit people. If that had been you, and you would have hurt or killed people, wouldn't that be your responsibility?

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Then, thankfully, we agree on something... "this is you most vaild point in the entire thread. the fact that if someone get hurt every pays. I cant agree with you anymore, but using your logic noone should ever do anything remotely risky ever. What a fun place this world would be like that."

Well resorts DO take into consideration that skiing, boarding, BMX or whatever, DO take some risk. The maximization of your fun versus the minimization of their risk is something that is dynamic in tort law and will likely never end. However, it also means that the resort has to take into consideration the safety of others and even yourself in order to protect itself from the frivolous lawsuits.

It is a fun world. Hey, I like running and have done five marathons. The hapless Greek soldier Pheidippides who did the first marathon died within seconds of telling the Athenians that their fleet won. Running 26.2 miles is inherently hazardous and, over 50, I know I could keel over. But I do it. Not because I want to die, but because there are fun things, even grueling things, that make one feel good. But frankly, it has to be done with due respect to the welfare of others. And that's why laws are made for.

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"I will even continue to so in the east as I did in utah. I would obey more laws if they were made with libertarian principles. Our current laws are based to much a nanny state that people cant take care of themselves, and expect the goverment to make everything right. I fear Obama leads more along that path because apparently that what people want."

Well, since you brought up Libertarian principles into law making, how about this? Respect for private property is a basic and inherent libertarian principle. And by you disrespecting the rules that resorts make on THEIR private property, you're really not respecting your own libertarian principles. I'll go as far as to say that you're de facto nationalizing private property by your lack of respect for that same private property. Is that what you want? You... little socialist... you...

Interesting that you bring up Utah, which in my opinion is the ultimate nanny government - a repressive theocracy bent on exporting it to all of us, especially on social issues. And since you brought it up, I was and am, an ardent Obama supporter because, he is totally opposed to what you charge him with. I would gladly lend you a couple of his writings. Personal responsibility is not the purview of the state but that of the individual. Government needs to provide a safety net, but in the cases where the safety net has failed through no fault of the individual, or in the cases where government itself has poked holes in the safety net and allowed people to fall through it, or (in the case of veterans) pushed through the holes, government can and indeed must act.

I'll buy the beers when I see you.

I just came in on this thread. I see the points. Understand the issues. And revell in the discussion Lou and Josh are having. It relates to snow, skiing, and pur passion. But guys... we can't solve the world's problems here. Maybe we ought to invite the Prez-elect to join us in discussions, making turns, and libating apres in the Connection. That way we can propose that he create a Department of Winter Activites and a cabinet level Secretary of Winter Interests. I would strongly urge him to appoint Jimmy as it's first secretary with Department meetings to be held on a weekly basis at ski areas around the country. That way we would have federal oversight of poachers and nothing would be done

I think someone needs to get the Prez elect hooked on skiing. The ski industry in general is quite enthused about the new administration. Which means more conservation and environmental legislation, but also better enforcement. Something to note as a side bar is that the new administration would be more in tune to interpret present legislation to further immunize ski operators against the ever expanding frivolous lawsuits.

"- - - the ever expanding frivolous lawsuits."

Is there evidence for that? I actually thought that lawsuits against ski areas peaked a decade or more ago. I also think I've read that the percentage of lift ticket costs that can be attributed to the cost of lawsuits was small.

I freely admit that I am uninformed with facts; I have only hearsay and 2nd and 3rd hand information. Does anyone have facts?

Colonel i couldnot agree with you more but if i am the only person i'm putting in jepordy and am willing to face the consequences of losing my pass how does this hurt anyone? It doesn't. Lou and Josh can add ifs butts conditions points and counterpoints until teh spaceship comes to recover my body but Cmon all we are talking about here is poaching a little POW, a speeding ticket, not running down a newb or crashing into a lift attendant or starting an avalanche. This is a good conversation.

I am not saying that there is never a reason that a slope should be closed; i have also been told by patrollers that if you ASK the answer has to be "NO". If i choose to poach it's because i've decided that i am up to the risk, or that there isn't one, and am willing to accept the consequences (lose my ticket) if some authority has a problem with it. I don't think i'd duck a rope but sometimes those trail closed lolipops sure look like they say thin cover to me.

Kwillg6 yes i would accept a position in the BHO Cabinet. Secretary of Winter Interests?? hmmmm interesting..... maybe we could buy a couple of those corporate jets from GM big enuf for the hole "staff" and get Lou to fly us around and oh i don't know..... make sure the Nations Winter Interests are being served. The possiblity makes me feel like Paul Revere or Phil Mahre

Exactly.

Put another way, we are in a Nash equilibrium.

Until any one of us can change the probability distributions over possible actions of SAM, ski patrol, other skiers (or even on-slope wildlife), the best strategy of any one of us is to maximize the benefit to ourselves.

Hey David, you know what's missing from that TR?

Pics of fat skis at the 'shoe!


(Well done, btw).

Yeah. I took them up but didn't ski with them for 2 reasons. The first was that the conditions weren't the best for them (probably would have done well on the little bit of chopped powder on the left side of the intermediate run though). The second is that we rode the shuttle down from Top of the World to the Ballhooter lift. It would have been a pain to wait for that stinkin' shuttle to get back up there to get them, especially since we only were there for a few hours. Don't worry though, I'll have plenty of pics with them. Especially with this year's 200+ inch season!!

I generally try to stay out of these periphery debates and so today I am only writing this because if you take a look at Snowshoe's own website today, the rotating pictures show someone happily skiing through the trees and it's clearly not the little glades they cleared last year that aren't even open yet.

Like it or not, the ski industry needs to promote just enough of a rowdy side to keep up the image and interest levels. Snowshoe just needs one good muleskinner type trail with no snowmaking or maintenance to keep a few skiers busy on snow days. Put a big sign over like you would see at slack country gates saying go at your own risk blah blah.

ps: I am so very jealous of those of you who have already been out there. that's the important thing - get after it and have fun.

Anyone who didn't break the speed limit on the road to the ski hill can tell whether or not I should duck a rope or ski into the trees.

I don't think any ski operator wants to be the Carry Nation of the ski industry. My points are that:

1. When you're on PRIVATE property or on a PRIVATE reservation, you are obliged to obey the rules of the operator. Plain and simple.

2. The fact that a run may be closed for a variety of reasons, doesn't give anyone the right to conjecture that it must be the resort's desire for a Puritanical denial of fun. There are a zillion reasons why, and one of them is that poaching can lead to a skier hurting other people.

3. As a PRIVATE operator, ski resorts assume a certain degree of liability and can be sued. The superfluous lawsuits and frivolous awards that have come of irresponsible people are the reason why ski lift tickets are out of the reach of many people.

4. When we all go 56 on the Beltway, we are breaking the law on public property. Not so when we're poaching on a private reservation. Interesting to note that some of the most ardent conservatives on this site are the ones who are so cavalier about disrespecting private property. I'm having a kick out of that...

5. Pagamony's point is an outstanding one. Provided that the man-made obstructions are taken away and workers are not in the trail, heck - open up the Ballhooter lift line... With HUGE signs that if you crack your head open, it's your cracked head that YOU will pay for, and that all costs for rescue will be solely borne by the out-of-bound skier. Heck, maybe the Ski Patrol may be able to remodel their facilities.

You do relize ballhooter lift line isnt even close to be that bad? with the proper snow on it(which does happen). Its it hardly tough to ski.

you do relize resort in vermont and out west let people ski stuff much more difficult than that. Many time over. Have you skied at snowbird or jackson hole? Ballhooter lift line is a trail that would be fun for kids out there, its really is nothing to ski.

This is why I love Blue Knob. They open up stuff with thin cover and keep extrovert open even if it all grass on the exit. Blue Knob is the exact opposite of nanny skis areas like snowshoe.

You could say the same thing about the Front Four at Stowe... I guess it comes down to places where there is a ski culture in place.

Well good morning Lou, it's ole #4 here . Glad this conversation didn't continue til this morning, i was a bit over the weather last evening.

1. and if you don't, you will be asked to leave, fine.

2. one in a zillion??

3. "Is there evidence for that? I actually thought that lawsuits against ski areas peaked a decade or more ago. I also think I've read that the percentage of lift ticket costs that can be attributed to the cost of lawsuits was small.

I freely admit that I am uninformed with facts; I have only hearsay and 2nd and 3rd hand information. Does anyone have facts?" Denis

4. I'm not clear what you find so "interesting" about this , perhaps you feel i need to be lbottamized ?

5. I don't agree with the tone of your reply but if we substitute cupp run for bawlhooter i too am all for it .






I think i'm beginning to understand this Nash Equilibrium dealio, i have a couple o questions that if answered will hopefully clear some things up,



So, Bushwacker, lbotta, comprex, rodsmith denis scwva kwill and johnL are standing at the top of an OPEN run. The rope just has been dropped after a day and a night of inch an hour puking snowstorm and there is not a track on the mountain. Assuming that this group is in a state of Nash Equillibrium,



1. Who drops in first


2. Why

Utah, CO, WY all have a ski culture. Within that culture is an inherent understanding of the risks involved in going out of bounds, ducking ropes etc. There is the understanding that you may get stuck and have to hike as a best case, run into a tree, get caught in an avi, drown in a tree well as a worst case.

In the Mid-A we have a small core group culture who understand the risks and a whole slew of people who have no notion of the dangers inherent in winter sports. The problems are not so much those who understand the risks it's the other muppets. We see it on this board every year. Complaints about the locals who just don't understand that just because it's Wisp or 7S or WT that you can't get hurt so do whatever you please. Yet we have, over the years, heard of the minor (my friend last year getting taken out by a rookie and now may miss 2 seasons in a row) and the major (the kid who died at WT and an avi at Wisp. Out west the shear size of the mountains discourages those who might otherwise try something foolish.

Don't get me wrong, poached pow is sweeter than honey but it comes with it's own price tag.

You dont duck avalanche control ropes anywhere out west. You will lose your pass, even if you claim ignorance. Losing your pass is best case scenario. avalanche and killing yourself or other is worst case scenario.

there are tons of places in bounds you can hit a tree, get stuck in a treewell, or lose skis in powder out there. With that said its statically safer to ski in the trees/bumps/or off trail steeps. Most people only go there if they think can do it. thinking is enough in most cases IMO because at least people know how to 'survive' stuff like that. and most on hill injuries anywhere in american happen on blue groomers. Truly the scariest slope at hill. collisions with other people and careening of the trail at high speeds are all problems that can be had on blue groomers. High speed collisions kill, low speed tumbles in the trees hardly ever hurt and maybe sometime injure, but almost never kill.

the sheer size of the mountain does nothing once your on the hill, there were still people that got stranded above cliffs all the time. IMO one time stranded above a cliff for someone who cant take care of themselves will be the last time. They wont do that again. Heck people get stranded on top of Big Emma all the time.

Gotta chime in here, not to debate, but just to add support for the poaching side and Bush.

Lou's a great member and I've loved reading his posts for years, but I have to disagree here.

A lot's already been said, so no real need to rehash arguments, but I think when you step back and look at it, the idea of SnowShoe patrollers hiding behind trees waiting to jump out at people ducking ropes is both comical and a pretty big waste of money / resources. I've skied virtually every major resort in Europe, and many big resorts in the US, and NEVER seen this anywhere else. Every resort faces the same liability problems.

Woooooo.... Hold it a second.... Who's talking about a new Department of Ski Run Security? For Goddsake we've got enough with the dark legacy of Alberto Gonzalez and Scalito!

All I'm saying revolves around:

1. Respect for private property. Is that so bad? C'mon, McCain/Palen supporters...
2. Common sense. Does your right to have fun supersede a ski worker's right to live and support his family if you kill him?
3. Why should I pay for YOUR rescue party and YOUR medical bills if you cavalierly decided to go under a closed rope and try freshies when you know better?

I guess we have a bunch of closet Socialists... I'm beginning to like this

Common sense, gents.

Lou. The open trail has been groomed by Snowshoe management. The rest of us are skiing the pow in the trees next to the trail.

So, Bushwacker, lbotta, comprex, rodsmith denis scwva kwill and johnL are standing at the top of an OPEN run. The rope just has been dropped after a day and a night of inch an hour puking snowstorm and there is not a track on the mountain. Assuming that this group is in a state of Nash Equillibrium,



1. Who drops in first
RodSmith

2. Why[/quote]
Because all the people with training heels will be discussing how great their new powder equipment is and the tele skier will get first tracks.

lol - so tell the management to crack down on the employees smokin weed in the trees so we don't run into them
sorry, i couldn't resist.

My name is SCWVA and I'm Poacher. I've been poaching for many years and I can't seem to stop. But now after reading Mr. Ibotta posts I am a changed man. Matter of fact, even with the recent snow, I decided not to poach Wisp this am, because of the high avalanche danger.

Actually, I typically won't poach a closed trail when the ski area is open. I will however ski between trails and out of bounds on the East Coast.

I think ski areas should allow you to ski their mountains if there is snow and they are closed. Snowshoe could actually make some $ by selling area passes, just like they do for mtn. biking. Tline seems to be open to allowing people to use their mtn, as long as you stop by the Pub when you're done.

We use to ski closed trails at Snowshoe on a regular basis, including car skiing Cupp Run in late April. Every time, I've poached a run at Snowshoe I was with Snowshoe employees (Ski Patrol, Instructors, bartenders, etc.). So maybe those tracks Lou sees aren't from a bunch of spoiled high schoolers.

Over the years, things have really changed a lot at SS, some for the better (village, highspeed quads, etc.), but the skiing has gotten worse. The skiing at SS, has become very stale and generic. The trails have no character and with all the grooming, they have turned "Wild and Wonderful" WV into "Manicured and Ho-Hum" WV.

SCWA, no argument on the blase blase yawn yawn trails. Except the new tree glade next to Soaring Eagle.

The fact of the matter is that for Intrawest, their cookie-cutter approach does make money. So expect more of the same...

Lou,

Do you have an issue with these kids snowboarding at Wisp? Wisp wasn't open when I took this picture a couple of weeks ago.


Early Season snowboarding

None of them are even wearing helmets.

The new gladed trail is the only reason I'd ski the Shoe.

I've skied SS for years and have over 200 days on their slopes, but their overpriced cookie cutter approach is why I won't ski there anymore.

Unpossible.

Rodsmith ain't there yet (speed limitz).
Denis left after hiking for turns during the storm.
Bush is in Pa, ergo not where it's puking an inch/hour.
I'm at work.



SCWVA



'coz otherwise he sees NO freshies, the guys who fixed their heel problems will be in front.

Don't know if guys have checked things about but it appears that Snowshoe is having an AWESOME Thanksgiving day. It really would be nice to be up there. Their snow report is showing 20 open trails and 5 open lifts.

2 blacks (one of which is the terrain park)
6 blues
12 greens

And looking at their pictures, they are already making tons of snow on the Western Territory. They could potentially be 100% by mid December... Let it snow!

Wow... they do have a lot of trails open already. I'm trying to decide whether to head up there tomorrow or Saturday. Do you guys have any idea which day would be less busy?

Thanks!

I was debating heading up tomorrow too....but I have a feeling the crowds will start bottle-necking on Ballhooter come 10:00 or so on both days.

I'm heading up with my two brothers-in-law tomorrow for the day. As for crowds, I think it can go either way. I doubt it will be as bad as a full-on mid-season weekend crowd though, and they will have a decent number of lifts running. We'll see --I'm sure we'll have fun no matter what.

I am also thinking they will be at or close to 100% open by mid December. If so, I may shoot for a weekend up there while discount rates are still in effect.

Friend of mine went hiking down Western Territory and talked to one of the groomers. They were busy raising the lift off the lower cog at mid mountain in preparation to open W/T fully instead of just the mid mountain. Let's hope for a great winter!

That's impressive. I've been wondering the past few days if they might run into that "problem". With weather like we have been having it would be hard to believe that it would be to challenging for them to just open the whole side up, rather than just the top half. I'm also pretty sure they will have no problem getting Lower Shay's opened up this year...

Yes, we heard the same info today -- they're unhooking the midstation before it ever saw action for the season. Good sign I'd say!

Skiing was great today -- the weather was gorgeous. Temps were in the low 30s most of the day, and very comfortable. Sun was out most of the time. The snow was in great shape. Crowds were typical for a light weekend. The longest we waited in lift line was about 4-5 minutes. The slopes never really felt crowded.

Sounds good! I'm going to Snowshoe for Demo Days this weekend. I hope they get some more trails open before Friday.

I'll be skiing the whole weekend, except for Sat AM when I have a condo board meeting. Will also be a good time to catch up on the restaurant reviews....

All this interesting discussion on poaching. I agree 100% with Lou- private property is private property. When you come to my house, and I say "don't put a nail in the oak tree" and you put a nail in the oak tree and insist you weren't harming anyone, you're not coming back, no matter how stupid you think my rule is. It's my rule, my property, you respect it or you stay the hell off.

The problem is- what about public property? Maybe one reason there's a "ski culture" out west is that 99.9% of the skiing is on federal land. Can we poach on federal land? Should we? The part about liability being spread around still holds true. The ski area has lease access and control of activities and liability for what occurs on their lease. Seems that there should be a rule against poaching there, too.

And of course there's always the not-so-poaching poaching that almost all of us do when we can: hitting areas that aren't officially ski runs to get at the freshies. Most of that poaching occurs with tacit agreement from the ski area though. For instance, at CV when there's good snow Ski Patrol will almost never ask you why you're skiing in a place that's not a ski run. If that's standard accepted behavior, it's okay. Each area is different though, as is the terrain.

I've never been to Snowshoe, but after Snowslider's pic, I've got to get over there!!!


aaron

Oh no scooter, that's not Snowshoe!
I wouldnt want you to think it is.

It is one of the Salt Lake City resorts, I dont recall which one.
It is a nice sight indeed.

poaching at a western area is way different. your poach can actually kill somebody with out the "IFS" that lou keeps mentioning.

also western area dont play 'nannies' to the guest. if there is enough snow to kinda of cover everything and its probably wont slide they open terrain up. It up to you not the ski area to decide what is safe for you or not.

lastly most places are on federal land. IE you can snowboard at alta but you cant ride lifts. Also most places let your tour early and late season with no issues.