Just curious - does anyone know how approximately how steep the Drop and Off the Wall are in degrees?

Some where there was a discussion on this last year I believe on all the steeps of the mid-atlantic. It got to be pretty technical and very informative. One thing I can tell you Tom, if you go off the down hill side of any of the bottom whales (as I mistakenly did last Saturday)on OTW, it's a severe 90 degree drop for 10 to 15 feet. I was lucky to land it.

Yes. That whale near the bottom was a doozy. Straight drop off with a flat landing. Just curious, a visiting friend asked.

Kill the whales!

Kill the whale killers!

As to the slope steepness of The Drop and Off the Wall, I'd say not very. (They are not even steep by Mid-Atlantic standards.) Without whales, they are pretty much blues. With whales, OTW has some very nice interesting lines; it is good practice for more advanced runs out West and in the Northeast.

John,
You meant 'not even steep' right?

Yep.

John, ther are not too many other places in the Mid Atlantic that are steeper, though. We be limited due to a variety of factors.

These are my educated *opinions* as to what trails are steeper:

Extrovert and D-Trail, Blue Knob
Upper Gunbarrel, Roundtop
Lower Shays, Snowshoe
Lower Wildcat, Laurel Mountain
The headwall on the backside of Liberty
The trail at Ski Denton
Trail at SnoMountain
Bold Decision, Whitetail (maybe close)
White Lightning, Canaan Valley (been a while and you'd know better than me on that one)

Maybe even a headwall section or two at Seven Springs and Blue Mountain.

That's a fair amount of choices right there...

T-Line has challenges and I think the whales up the difficulty factor a lot, but the mountain is not really steep, even when compared to other local choices. Again, my opinion.

Dontcha think that without whales and without grooming, The Drop and OTW would bump up? In which case they would be more challenging than intermediate slopes? (Agreed that when groomed, The Drop in particular is nothing more than a strong intermediate trail. Ditto for White Lightning at Tline.) Kill the whales and kill the grooming machines!

My own personal preference (been saying this for several years), is whales on OTW, bumps on The Drop. The moderate whales on White Lighting this year are a positive addition. (Leave Thunderstruck well-groomed for high speed turns.)

A decent bump line generally forms skier's right on OTW, so it already is a partial bump run. Skiing over the steep drops of the whales is great practice for the crux challenges you find in the bigger/steeper mountains in the West and Northeast. (As of early January, only one whale - on the very left at the bottom - was not skiable straight over the top of the whales.) The whales would be even better if they don't get degraded over time by unqualified skiers traversing around the bottom backside of the whales, forming a trough at the very bottom of the whale.

Avalanche? Maybe. The Wall at Denton, however... definitely. But like the other headwalls in the Mid-A, quite short. Shays is probably the longest serious steep run in the Mid-A, in my *opinion*.

Yep, I almost always ski the bump line skiers' right on OTW. Its fun but uses less of the interesting terrain variations on OTW than a line skiers' left would, I think.

How much of those terrain variations skier's left are the result of the whales versus how much are the result of the ground underneath? I am assuming the variations are mostly due to the whales. Any long-time T-Line regulars have any comment?

I think that OTW is pretty flat l-r when it's groomed. Steepest slope at Tline is those steps from timber pub down to the rest rooms.

Now that there was Funny Jimness..You hit the Head on the Rail on that one!!

A few years ago I measured the steepest part of OTW (near the bottom) with a slope inclinometer. It was 30 deg. I did this to show a friend who swore it was 45 or >. 30 deg. is actually quite respectable. Many runs at Alta are in that ballpark. Skiers overestimate slope angles all the time. 35 deg. will get most everyone's attention and 40 is truly steep.

Facts...Just the facts...Thats what we strive for!...Thanks Denis..

OTW is pretty steep. Its similar in difficulty to Extrovert IMO. I liked the whales last time was at TLine. They give the trail a little something extra.