Timberline or Snowshoe on Saturday?
December 20, 2006
104 posts
25 users
48k+ views
So now the great debate. I live in harrisonburg and was wondering whether timberline or snowshoe would be the best bet for saturday. Webcam from timberline looks awesome and with it being opening day conditions should be great. With snowshoe it might be crowded with the rail jam and demo days and might be a little ski'd out from friday. I know snowshoe will have 12 or so trails open so I guess the big factor will be how many timberline will have. Any thoughts?
Well, I'll be at Timberline, so I think you should head to Snowshoe and report back
Seriously, Timberline hasn't said what would be open yet, although there has been some prognostication here on the board. I guess the trade off is possibly having fewer trails if you go to T-Line. Conditions should be good in both places and if it were me, I would probably let the length of the drive be the determining factor (I don't know the drive times to each from H'burg). If that is equal, I would go to T-Line - probably less crowded.
Clay
Well for me this is a no brainer.....it's timberline. And usually i am a proponent of snowshoe. Here is the dealio....if you look at snowshoe's trail count, they have been focusing on a high number of green runs. Spruce glades was the only blue run (we all know that isn't a double black) open today, and on Saturday that slope is most likely going to be closed for the slopestyle/boardercross events. That leaves you one blue run to cruise...gandy dancer which is supposed to open tomorrow. They are blowing on grabhammer but i just dont' see them dropping the ropes on that till at least sunday. If you go to snowshoe, you have a ton of greens and gandy, which is just one nice drop followed by a green runout. At timberline, god only knows what they'll open, but you will have white lightning, and that smokes anything snowshoe will be running that day. snow conditions will be fantastic at both mountains. less crowds at timberline. cheaper tickets at timberline. dew drop and either sally or off the wall would just be a great bonus for you if open. if your group are at least an intermediate level skiers, i think everyone would be happier at tlien this weekend.
Yeah, I think I've made up my mind for T. Timberline is a 2 hour drive and Snowshoe is 3. Also getting up the mountain & a lift ticket at shoe always seems to take a while, where timberline is park n ski n 10 minutes flat. I'm an intermediate skier (all blues and most blacks) so hopefully timberline will have something good open as you said. I wonder if they'll have the trail list up early in the morning? I'll also be going by myself so if anyone wants to meet up that'd be cool
I'm heading to Snowshoe myself tonight. I spoke to a friend on the mountain and she told me they received about 11 inches of fresh snow
. It also sounds like they opened more top to bottom runs and they'll have 2 blue trails open. Still nice for early season. I'll be sure to take lots of pictures and maybe even some video of the competition.
-Paul
Called up timberline and they basically said 4 green trails will be open tomorrow which would be sad. From the webcam it looks like they could open more but I guess they might hold back. I found a friend who is going to snowshoe so will have to place my bet there - plus got a free lift ticket from kroger (buy 4 12packs of coke product). I suppose 2 blues and some top to bottom greens will be nice if its not too crowded
I called and they said nothing will be opened from the top on Saturday--just the trail from the mid-station and Woods Hole. I may cancel my trip at this point. What a bummer.
that is astonishing - from the looks of the amount of snow they have been making!!!! It looks mid-winter down near the web cam!!
I wonder what the rationale for their decision is. Are they trying to preserve the snow for the Christmas week crowd? Because it seems like a sure bet this decision will cost them skier visits this weekend.
the widening of WL coming back to haunt them perhaps??
Doesn't TL have a reputation for building a pretty solid base before opening?
Seems like I've heard this discussion before.....
I just called, what a joke of an opening. They can't even say what, if any, more terrain will open Sunday, they still haven't updated their snow report. I think they ought to take that webcam down instead of teasing people with it. I'm disappointed, I'll get over it I guess but if they'd have been upfront about this weekend i'd have made other plans. Powerful new snowmaking system ha, i can ski as much as they'll have open tomorrow if I stay home and go to Oglebay Park. Season opens at Tline my a$$.
I imagine they want to preserve the base though the warmup thats coming next week. Would rather have it open in good conditions then just let it melt away while trying to save it up. I imagine we'll get some kind of actual snow storm before the new year. Snowshoe it is!
I'm disappointed. I had to RSVP NO for three holiday parties because I had hoped to ski this weekend. Timberline had a whole week of non-stop cold weather and the web cam revealed heavy snowmaking on White Lightning. If the resort had no intention of opening any real skiing for this weekend, they should have forewarned people before they had made plans. Why can every other resort offer decent skiing this weekend except Timberline? What about all this great new snowmaking equipment they boast of? This is another example of the Timberline management having no customer skills whatsoever. The entire CV winter economy depends on these jokers to get it right occasionally and all they do is let people down. What a joke. I agree with Jimmy. These people should remove the web cam because it just creates false hopes and dashed expectations.
When is everybody going to get sick & tired of year after year of LAME BS Operations at the 2 ski areas in Canaan?.....BRING ON ALMOST HEAVEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..A foot of snow fell on that MTN in this last snow blast! I ain't getting any younger Lord!
Hey John you should come out to Kansas City. Our ski hill is so lame it doesn't matter whether they only open the beginner hill or the whole mountain... it's the same thing!!! HAR HAR HAR!!!
A buddy from work and I will probably go up to Snow Creek on opening day just for a laugh (and some beer at ten a.m.). I'm planning on skiing "the other" Hidden Valley at Christmas. All of this to prepare for Park City in January. Gads, the sacrifices you have to make sometimes...
...well, for any of you going up to T-line this weekend, remember: it could be worse. Take a run for me!
Why would T-line open only mid-station with all that snow?? Year after year they disappoint. Their operations staff is off the chart-pathetic.
I hope the Wisp people get something going at Tory soon.
Quote:
Hey John you should come out to Kansas City. Our ski hill is so lame it doesn't matter whether they only open the beginner hill or the whole mountain
Are they trying to sell $1,000,000 properties on that hill? Is the NY Times touting it as a great new get-away for the rich and famous? The hype over CV has been ridiculous as of late and except for White Grass, the ski resorts don't come close to measuring up to the hype. From reading all these articles, one would think that Davis is the next Stowe.
You know John, I posted up last year that I thought there was way too much play in that "Davis as Cool Mountain Town" article. That seemed to get reprinted/published in a number of national magazines and websites. Putting Davis in a list of the top "cool" mountain towns along with Stowe, Jackson, Ketchum, North Conway and a few other established winter sports centers. At the time someone on the board just thought this was normal republishing - my take still stands. Some strong investment/development forces are behind this elevation of the CV area. Anyone checkout Tuscan Ridge at Canaan? Want to buy a million dollar second home with a private lodge minutes from Davis? Create the buzz then watch the money flow in. My prediction - next real estate boom is going to take CV just like the last one took over Deep Creek Lake.
Tom
The average price of a home in the KC Metro area is about $172,000, which would make developing million dollar homes anywhere near here a bit difficult.
But, although I haven't read the articles in question, being a "cool mountain town" doesn't require having state of the art skiing, or even much good skiing at all for that matter. Blacksburg routinely got voted one of the top outdoor towns in the US by Outdoors magazine, and our closest ski hill was Winterplace about an hour away. Then there's McCall, ID (which was popular long before Tamarack came along and has only Brundage Mountain to kick around), Glenwood Springs, CO, Asheville and southwest NC, and other places I'm sure. Yeah, skiing is an option in all those places, but you don't need a Stowe to be a Stowe.
Yes, it really sucks that T-Line and CV underperform year after year. I can even remember a decade or so ago getting a three foot snowstorm out there once and CV STILL wouldn't open some of their terrain. But when the NYT and others write about Davis, they're writing about everything out there, not just the skiing- funky ol' Whitegrass, the golfing, the mountain biking, the whitewater, the hiking, the camping, dining, lodging, etc. And, remember, that's how a lot of resort owners are looking at things now too.
All I'm saying is don't dump on the CV trend too hard. It is a great lifestyle. It would benefit from better skiing, but it's still a cool place to be.
Yeah it definitely is a bummer how opening day turned out at Tline. looks like a good number of people are there and are most likely disappointed. WL has ample coverage, the rest of the trails are reporting a 30-50 inch base. My thought is that maybe Tline realized this was the last day to do really aggressive snowmaking in the forseeable future, and decided to give it all that got for one more day. It looks like they are still going hard on WL, and that they are also blowing on The Drop and lower heaven. i have no idea what may be going on over on salamander or off the wall, but i can only hope that they are firing on those as hard as they are the others, trying to get as much snow down as possible before the warmup and the holiday season. for those of you there, sorry you got hosed today but hell it is still better than a day in the classroom/office. make the most of it! Hope they open up something else for you tomorrow
Quote:
make the most of it! Hope they open up something else for you tomorrow
That's our philosophy. When I read the messages last night and called the snow line this morning, I decided to roll over and not rush - how many times can you do that circuit in a day?
We took our time and wandered over to the lodge at about 10:30 to pick up our season passes. By then, there were only two groups in front of us.
The thing that amazes me is while standing in the office getting our passes, I heard numerous calls come in asking for conditions and prices. $30 for 4 trails!! 
and two of the four shouldn't count - Woods Hole is a flat learning slope and Crossroads isn't a trail at all.
I find it incredible that anybody would pay that but the lot is full (as are the group lodges) so they can't ALL be season pass holders.
Clay
Edit: Maybe it's the military. I forgot that this weekend was "all active miliary ski free" weekend.
Things were disappointing...I came up with my friends for College Days (were spending the weekend at CV lodge) and I didn't notice how little was open until after I had bought my $15 ticket....it did get old after a while but I enjoyed the winter conditions in general and the snow was decent. I spent last spring in Africa so I missed skiing entirely last season. Also, Im not entirely sure that they could have opened much more-yes it did snow a lot, but it coverage was still weak, snowmaking aside. Last, why do they not update their snow report online? Considering the fact that nearly everyone checks the conditions/trails this way, what planet are the management living on that they wouldn't update it to announce what is going on??
The planet of LAMEUS...What are you going to do? Whitetail at almost sealevel with O natural snow can blow away a real mountain..real Snow area! Being blessed with a true Alpine envirement this far south has softened their aggresivness. Unfortuanately it will take at least 5 years to get any competition in the form of MPC Or Tory...keep hope alive!....There is very little support from DCSKI for "Almost Heaven" or Tory to be built..wierd but true..Fix TL..Fix CV..Screw that..all you new bloods out there & all you lurkers out there that want a change...Voice your support for a new & great ski area in WV...otherwise just continue to post disapointment year after year till your bones are brittle & you cannot ski ANYMORE!
I just watched one of those "Caveman" commercials..Funny as heck..I can just vision John F Interviewing the TL/CV management & watching the Caveman responses..Hilarious..
Quote:
The planet of LAMEUS...What are you going to do? Whitetail at almost sealevel with O natural snow can blow away a real mountain..real Snow area! Being blessed with a true Alpine envirement this far south has softened their aggresivness. Unfortuanately it will take at least 5 years to get any competition in the form of MPC Or Tory...keep hope alive!....There is very little support from DCSKI for "Almost Heaven" or Tory to be built..wierd but true..Fix TL..Fix CV..Screw that..all you new bloods out there & all you lurkers out there that want a change...Voice your support for a new & great ski area in WV...otherwise just continue to post disapointment year after year till your bones are brittle & you cannot ski ANYMORE!
Ohhhh yeah..that's it. Abandon anything that doesn't work perfect and build new somewhere else. Screw it, there is plenty of land. In fact, I say we mow down every north facing bump of land and stick snow guns everywhere. I'm sure we can find some pork barrel money somewhere to help pay for it
If you couldn't tell...that was me being sarcastic. There are people well into their 70's and beyond still earning their turns. You don't need some damn ski resort and it's fancy lifts to get to the goods. Do I use ski resorts? Hell yeah..do I like it? Hell yeah. Do I think CV area needs more? NNNNNOOOOOOOO!
Stop raping the land.
Steve
Hmmmm... I can tell from all these posts that the skiing has not been satisfactory this weekend.
My parents were at Keystone and Loveland this weekend. They were nice enough to send taunting pictures back. I couldn't go with them because the trip I took with my brother last month wound up costing more than either of us planned. So I got to spend the weekend in Kansas while my parents called from the Continental Divide and left razzing messages about the deep blue skies and perfect groomed snow... beat THAT for a bad ski weekend!
At least last night a bunch of neighbors and I got together and got drunk.
Hey, you should be more excited. Out here in the PNW we have 100% open with absolutely no fresh snow on a lot of it making it un-rideable. Looks like El Nino is giving everyone a more tropical shaft this month. See you on the slopes in a week!
NO..We are not going to CAVE IN to presure to upgrade our lifts Or to make an effort to have top to bottom skiing...We Cavemen here at TL have a laugh every time we see you modern day humans waiting in long lift lines & long lift times, when hiking up would be much faster(Caveman Giggle)....& you all call us slow!
This happens almost every year. Timberline always opens lame and opens their better terrain WAY later than everyone else. Why is everyone always so surprised? I always have a better time when my expectations are low. Actually a wise-man did say once that "the key to happiness is low expectations".
I'm off to Summit County tomorrow, but I do hope to hit the Valley for New Years. I hope this week's weather doesn't blow that plan.
Well they said that they built 30-50" base, so given the cold nights, you should at least have THAT to ski for News Years
Clay
OK, NOW FOR THE SKINNEY..... WL, being over twice the width of previous years is taking twice as much snow. Actually, the way they made the snow, I do believe there will be bumps on the old silver streak trail, which is still on the new trailmaps. Yes, they were blowing on the drop and OTW which means they should have those open in the near future. About a third of the 60 snow sticks were erected to complete the lower part drop's snowmaking. The remainder are resting until they have $$ to install them. There is also the issue of the broken (leaking) water infrastructure which hasn't been repaired yet. They can't blow on the west, NW part of the mountain until these are fixed. I was told that they were hoping for WARMER weather THIS WEEK so they could do this. Why in H3!! they are waiting until the mountain is going to open to do this is beyond me. Personally, as a supporter of the mountain and the locals who live and work there, I wonder if the owner and mountain manager give a rat's $$$ about any of them. I realize that they are opening a week earlier than usual, HOWEVER, all thing considered, they shouldn't have advertised and charged to ski there this weekend with the product they had available. If you went to a restaurant and paid that kind of price for such a skimpy meal, you would never go back. That's what will happen by those in attendance this past weekend.
Quote:
That's what will happen by those in attendance this past weekend.
Good chance that most of them will, in fact, come back. A large part of them were Scout groups and were paying group rates. And really it wasn't all that bad. Sure there were only two runs but it was a beautiful day, the snow was nicely groomed, and you could get you ski legs back without getting in over your head. They opened a week or more earlier than last year with only one week of snowmaking. White Lightning is open today. Did people here actually drive up there without ever calling to see what would be open? I don't think anyone was forced at gunpoint to come and ski two runs, it was a choice. I think most of the people that made the choice to come up had a good time even with limited terrain. That's not to say that I wouldn't have loved to have more but I could live with what they had
for a day.
I agree that they wait too long to work on infrastructure but I think thats more the fault of management than the maint. guys. Management has a very skewed view of how to run the place but there's nothing anyone can do about that. Its Timberline, get used to it. If you don't like that option then vote with your wallet but don't seemed shocked when things that don't make sense happen at Tline.
I think everybody needs to get out and ski a little. Awful grumpy around here for the first weekend of the season.
Quote:
Well they said that they built 30-50" base, so given the cold nights, you should at least have THAT to ski for News Years
Clay
Hope So!!
Quote:
OK, NOW FOR THE SKINNEY..... WL, being over twice the width of previous years is taking twice as much snow. Actually, the way they made the snow, I do believe there will be bumps on the old silver streak trail, which is still on the new trailmaps. Yes, they were blowing on the drop and OTW which means they should have those open in the near future. About a third of the 60 snow sticks were erected to complete the lower part drop's snowmaking. The remainder are resting until they have $$ to install them. There is also the issue of the broken (leaking) water infrastructure which hasn't been repaired yet. They can't blow on the west, NW part of the mountain until these are fixed. I was told that they were hoping for WARMER weather THIS WEEK so they could do this. Why in H3!! they are waiting until the mountain is going to open to do this is beyond me. Personally, as a supporter of the mountain and the locals who live and work there, I wonder if the owner and mountain manager give a rat's $$$ about any of them. I realize that they are opening a week earlier than usual, HOWEVER, all thing considered, they shouldn't have advertised and charged to ski there this weekend with the product they had available. If you went to a restaurant and paid that kind of price for such a skimpy meal, you would never go back. That's what will happen by those in attendance this past weekend.
This is so maddeningly not surprising. Just when you think they have things together and are making progress...
Didn't they (reportedly) have similar (or the same) water supply line problems last year?
Quote:
There is also the issue of the broken (leaking) water infrastructure which hasn't been repaired yet. They can't blow on the west, NW part of the mountain until these are fixed. I was told that they were hoping for WARMER weather THIS WEEK so they could do this.
Say it ain't so. This the one that blew up last February? A ski mountain hoping for warmer weather in the winter, that's funny.
Quote:
And really it wasn't all that bad. Sure there were only two runs but it was a beautiful day, the snow was nicely groomed, and you could get you ski legs back without getting in over your head.
Truth.
Two beautiful days. I was disappointed when I left Wheeling Friday night but started feeling much better when i drove past DCL and saw Wisp blazing, snow covered roads from backbone mountain all the way to Davis. The lesson this weekend, there's more to skiing than how many feet of vertical you skied today, i quit at 3:00 to make my rounds and was only 40 minutes late for happy hour; i'd have spent Saturday behind a desk if i hadn't been in CV. Tele Sunday, what a great way to make that little bit o terrain interesting. Saw some old friends met a few new ones...... that's all, it's the season.
Edit to add that they opened on 12/8 last year w/WL from the top. This year started out much tougher to make snow than last.
Just read this on the Canaan Valley.org website:
"Welcome to the "Top of the Mountain State"!
This unhurried high-mountain paradise offers family adventures unequalled in the region! Winter find the area blanketed with 150-200 inches of natural snowfall annually and that spells snowplay. Two major downhill ski resorts, a multitude of ski touring centers, snow tubing, ice skating, and quality lodging spells family fun!
Spring brings some of the best trout fishing in the east, spring gobblers, wildflower tours, hiking, biking, and golf!
Escape the heat of Summer (temperatures rarely exceed the mid 80's!) and enjoy a broad spectrum of activities in the National Forest with epic mountain bike trails or gentle and scenic rail/trails! Visit some of the east's wildest areas in two Federal Wilderness Areas or the Canaan Valley National Wildlife Refuge. Your family can play in our State Parks with trails, golf, scenic lift rides, nature hikes, kids activities, swimming, and much more!
Your family will enjoy our quaint mountain towns and shop or browse in our many antique, gift, and specialty shops or enjoy some fairs and festivals. Around the Fourth of July, you can enjoy a free outdoor concert featuring the Wheeling Symphony Orchestra. Visit Blackwater Falls, one of West Virginia's most photographed sites. Autumn brings cool temperatures and brilliant colors, rivaling New England. The Leaf Peepers Festival is full of outdoor activities for the whole family with the Tour of Davis 5K, Fall Colors Golf Tournament, Appalachian Food and Craft Fair and more, all set in the blazing colors of our extensive hardwood forests!
Or, some of our visitors like to do a whole lot of nothing"
This to me sums up the valley pretty well. Sure at times I would like speedier lifts and better management. But it is what it is. The valley is unlike many places in this country. Its blend of activities in one central location make it special.
OK, maybe I was a little harsh.... just a little. But, when planning ahead, doesn't it make sence to get an idea of what you need to do before doing it? As for the leaky pipes, I understand that over 3/4 of the leaks were repaired over the last few months and the rest will be shortly. My question is why now instead of during the summer months? A skelatal crew could have done that work and then they wouldn't have been sweating it. However, they have made base, more than anyone else and yes, we will be able to ski it while global warming shuts down everyone else in February.
Aren't these the same BOOBS who had several areas logged, which has negatively impacted some of the gladed ski slopes? The bottom line is this: if a ski area owner is so hard up for cash that they have to stoop to logging for the sole purpose of making some extra money, they shouldn't be in the ski industry.
Yeah, I believe (part of?) the funds from the logging were directed toward the replacement of the foundation for the top terminal on the Thunderdraft Triple. I don't really see logging as a fund raiser for an major repair as a bad thing. Sure most areas would have some sort of rainy day fund for that type of thing, but as we all should know, Tline isn't most areas. The fact that the loggers weren't forced to clean up their mess impacted the skiing in the glades more than the harvesting of some trees.
Again, if a ski area ownership is soooooo strapped for cash that they have to resort to a highly destructive activity like logging, then they need to go into a different business venture. Hopefully, some type of business that they can afford. I'm tired of seeing one ski area after another go for the short term profit at the expense of the environment. A ski area must have a sound long term-plan that also protects the environment if it is to prosper.
Ski areas almost always use logging as a revenue source when they clear terrain. It's part of the business model. You gotta do something with the trees when you cut a new trail after all. And most glades are partially cleared too, so of course they're going to harvest it. The alternative would be to do what, exactly, with trees when you chop them down???
oddly enough, Timberline has probably done more to protect the environment in Canaan Valley than any resort would ever dream of doing. They sold a huge portion of their developable property to the National Wildlife Refuge. So that was a short term profit from the long term protection of the environment that limits the resorts ability to prosper long term. And in my opinion, was rather stupid.
Logging isn't necessarily highly destructive, done responsibly and using best management practices the harm can be minimal. That, of course, didn't happen at Timberline. Really most of the damage to the glades from a skiers view is the lack of clean up after the logging. Lots of tops and snags laying around and stumps sticking up. There doesn't appear to be any huge change in erosion in the logged areas.
I bet that "cleaning" up that area...removing the tops, small brush/striped maples and other logging leftovers, etc...could be done quickly(matter of days), easily, and for vary little investment...and the skiing product it would produce would probably be the best glade skiing around...heck snow is already being blown in that area...
Soooo, how was White Lightning today?
Kwill....
did you get any sense from the people up there when they may open Drop and OTW? It looked from the webcam that they were blowing on Drop pretty hard on friday/saturday. Are they waiting to get ample time to groom on those or are they still a little short in the snow coverage? Just throwin this ? out there as I am supposed to start skiing Tline next tuesday, the 19th, and was hoping for maybe some terrain expansion by then.
Wish I could tell you...spent my day in street shoes...unfortunately had to take care of some non-sliding business...from the looks of it on the web cam though it looked like whoever was there probably had it too themselves...I imagine it was some sweet top to bottom spring conditions...
Even if a logging operation is conducted properly and the logging waste is cleaned up afterwards, it's not good for skiing for the following reasons: 1) As you noted, logging leaves lots of stumps that can create a very dangerous skiing hazard. 2) In order to remove the felled timber, skid trails must be cut and heavy equipment is used to drag the timber down to a log collection area and loading point. This process unearths lots of large rocks and creates gashes and uneven ground. Of course this is also bad for skiing. 3) Because logging removes the large economically valuable trees, the upper canopy is destroyed, which allows lots of saplings and brush to grow. Quality Tree Skiing doesn't involve skiing through brush and saplings, not to mention stumps, skid trails and dislodged rocks. Once an area is logged, the damage has been done and you can't have quality Glades there.....unless you want to wait about 80 years for the forest to recover.
The formation of genuine Glades actually COSTS money because it involves LEAVING the large valuable trees standing, and thus the upper canopy intact. The underbrush and very small trees are removed and sometimes large rocks are also removed when feasible. If you want to see how genuine Glades look and are carefully maintained, just head up to places like Mad River Glen or Sugar Bush.
...I like to jump the stumps...and sometimes give em a little tizzzap...
Quote:
Once an area is logged, the damage has been done and you can't have quality Glades there.....unless you want to wait about 80 years for the forest to recover.
Keep telling yourself that while we suffer through our low quality, rock and stump strewn glades. No need to come check it out, we'll let you know when they finally get good again. 
No comment on T-line saving the Earth with their NWR property sale?
Quote:
Even if a logging operation is conducted properly and the logging waste is cleaned up afterwards, it's not good for skiing for the following reasons: 1) As you noted, logging leaves lots of stumps that can create a very dangerous skiing hazard. 2) In order to remove the felled timber, skid trails must be cut and heavy equipment is used to drag the timber down to a log collection area and loading point. This process unearths lots of large rocks and creates gashes and uneven ground. Of course this is also bad for skiing. 3) Because logging removes the large economically valuable trees, the upper canopy is destroyed, which allows lots of saplings and brush to grow. Quality Tree Skiing doesn't involve skiing through brush and saplings, not to mention stumps, skid trails and dislodged rocks. Once an area is logged, the damage has been done and you can't have quality Glades there.....unless you want to wait about 80 years for the forest to recover.
The formation of genuine Glades actually COSTS money because it involves LEAVING the large valuable trees standing, and thus the upper canopy intact. The underbrush and very small trees are removed and sometimes large rocks are also removed when feasible. If you want to see how genuine Glades look and are carefully maintained, just head up to places like Mad River Glen or Sugar Bush.
couch cough, or maybe even right next door at WhiteGrass?
Quick question for you MM, as I see you railing against ski area logging and all of the associated environmental issues.
Have you/do you ever earn your turns? I mean, if you wanna climb up on your soapbox again and again and again about this issue, I figure the least you could do is quit supporting these abominations by not riding on their electric/diesal powered lifts, by not skiing the runs that the snowcats groom each and everynight, etc, etc.....
Ski resorts by their general nature aren't exactly 'evironmentally friendly.'
When you look at the environmental impact trade-off (impact versus benefit) regarding ski lifts and ski slope grooming equipment, it's a no brainer! The benefit to the General Public is nearly always well worth any negative environmental aspects. On the other hand, if a ski area operator choses to log areas along and in between the ski slopes (or along a run-off area) simply for the purpose of making a buck, the Long-Term negative impact (loss of wind-break, loss of natural beauty, stumps, possible erosion, possible adverse impact to the water table, etc.) to the ski area is often times NOT off-set by the Short-Term Quick-Cash that is realized from such a logging operation.
Let me ask you a couple of questions. If a ski area like Waterville Valley, NH or Sugar Bush, VT decided to have most of the areas located along and in between their ski slopes commercially logged, do you think that the logging would improve the quality of the skiing? And, do you think that the logging would result in an increase in skier visits? The best way for a mid-Atlantic ski area to prosper is to follow what the "big boys" up North are doing, and the New England ski areas seem to be taking reasonably good care of the environment these days. Why? Because going green is actually GOOD for business!
I'll agree that between Blue Knob and Timberline's money making logging sales (ie Cherry Bowl) the results are negative on the glade skiing. I'll attest to the fact though that with enough natural snow anything is skiiable and enjoyably so, 2 consecutive aprils to be exact.
The fact about Cherry Bowl though, as much as I don't like what was done, is that cherry trees are worth alot of money and 98% of the paying customers never would have touched that area in the first place so you can't really blame someone for doing it if the owner isn't even really a lover of glades in the first place. Note that I don't know anything about Timberline's owner.
Logging that in my opinion isn't good for the skiing isn't always for a quick buck. 7Springs is way too open in my opinion and they likely cleared those slopes to make the skiing better. Its all in ones opinion. Its more wide open but its also less interesting and like you said you have less wind break and shade.
..this is off subject but..I agree the ideal way to glade areas is not to clear cut, or to take all the canopy(good point)...I would think, as far as the mid-a resorts go...a good method would be to pick areas that catch overblow from guns...then go in and take out all growth you can rap your hands around, all the old logs and stumps, and pile up big rocks near large tree trunks(or in piles to form kickers)...(I would also think bending a couple trees to slide would be recommendable)... imagine the terrain that would open up and could be advertised...resorts could increase their skiing terrain substantially without the need for any additional snowmaking...
I agree with such an approach to increase skiable terrain. There's no sense in letting wooded areas that receive snowmaking over-blow go to waste. Sometimes a little clearing (and clean-up) with hand tools can create a nice Gladed zone.
Yeah, look at Devils Drop at Wisp. It's trees are rideable for a big part of the season just due to blowoff from Face/Squirrel Cage.
So MM...I'm assuming that your answer to Tom's question is "No, I haven't ever actually earned my turns." I don't want to put words in your mouth so please correct me if I am wrong.
Steve
Quote:
If a ski area like Waterville Valley, NH or Sugar Bush, VT decided to have most of the areas located along and in between their ski slopes commercially logged, do you think that the logging would improve the quality of the skiing?
Depends on whether people like open bowl skiing or not.
Incidentally, MM, it's "Sugarbush," not "Sugar Bush." Maybe this a Freudian slip and you have the hots for our current president??? Ooooh that'd be a cheeky rumor to start in these parts!
Roger Z, that's a good one! Thanks for setting me straight on Sugar and Bush. And, as far as my feelings about Bush go.....well, I guess it's best that I refrain from making any comments.
JR, I couldn't agree with you more about 7-Springs being way too open. Nearly all of the trees have now been cleared off of the North Side. For the most part, the North Side of 7-Springs is just one huge field on the side of a ridge. There were even a couple of nice glades that have now been converted into conventional ski slopes. Rather than cutting more trails, I think that 7-S should have replaced those old and SLOW lifts (on the North side) with high speed lifts. Don't get me wrong, I still like 7-S, but, like all ski areas, it has it's draw-backs.
Following up on what Kim said, I wonder if this scenario occurred.
1. Timberline needs to open to get Season Pass money out of escrow.
2. Timberline opens minimum terrain to fulfil escrow requirements.
3. Escrow Money available to pay staff and begin snowmaking fixes on the West Side of the Mountain. Snowmaking fixes could not be made earlier because of lack of funding.
We all know Timberline operates close the margins and has no credit due to past financial problems. Hence, cash flow based on the Season Pass Escrow account my explain some of the decisions it is making. Thoughts???
Interesting thoughts, John. Makes one wonder why operate at such a slim margin anyway. They got to be doing better than hand to mouth with the recent realestate sales and a record year last season. I know they don't make anyone rich of the payrole either. Where does the money go???
You theory may be actual practice.
Kim:
I was told that most (nearly all) of the Winterhaven lots are owned by 3d parties and that T-line is making very little money from those sales. They sold to speculators too early in the process to make a killing.
The good news is the warm weather. It may allow the repairs to go forward on the West Side.
What would force them to keep that money in escrow?
Clay
If for some reason they were not able to open at all for the season, then most likely all those people who paid for season passes would like their money back. Its a good idea for them to hang on to it until they open just in case.
I believe the credit card companies impose this rule on resorts. I know it is in effect at Timberline from past experiences buying season passes.
Something about Timberline just doesn't add up. Year after year the owners of the place act like they're having a hard time making a go of it, yet they seem to do plenty of business. A few years ago, I was considering buying a place close to the ski slopes at TL. However, I decided against it based on what appeared to be shaky management and the SLOW lifts. Of course, I'm sure that the house I looked at has at least doubled in value since then; but, something is clearly amiss with the ski operations. After all, I've seen other ski areas (located within the mid-Atlantic) that probably do less business than TL and are able to keep operating.
Actually it's a smart business practice to do this when payment is accepted before goods or services are delivered. I'd hate to think what the situation TLine would be put in if they started selling season passes all throughout the summer and then we have 70's temps into January on some weird winter. While many skiiers might understand that the weather is out of TLines control, I'm sure many many more would want their money back especially if another resort like snowshoe was to barely survive some horrid winter like that.
At least with the escrow account TLine or any business could at least refund the money and technically in the end not lose anything. Where as if they incorporated the cash into their daily operations and it was spent towards paying employees, bills, buying services, etc. Then they would be hurting really bad to pay out of their direct cashflow the returns customers seeked. It really does protect TLine from getting in over their head especially when they are running that close to the break even line.
TL Sold that land to support a lifestyle...A lifestyle of the owners. They had Grand plans for a golf course Ect..." They took the money & ran Instead. I had a friend who worked there for 5 years & the stories of the Pilfering that took place explain the situation that we as paying skiers face now! We all calm down from time to time & try to rationalize the situation we are in....AWWW isn't it just a Homey kind of place? The Owner Busses your table & the lodge is just so cozy ....Look at the Snow Flying around!?..This is a dinasour of a place supported by OUR Money...There have been outside interests trying to buy the place but they have all been blocked thru some sort of rights givin to the owners even though they are or have been in bankruptcy...forever!...This is a great Mtn In a Great area...We deserve Better!!!!!!!!!Bring on Almost Heaven!!
Hummmmm....that story sounds awfully familiar.....which comes to mind. Never mind.....better not go there......
For the past 15 years I have put up with the poor decisions, the lack of common sence, and the deteriorating base facilities owned by the mountain just to enjoy the terrain that's available at t-line. You are seeing homeowners invest big $$$ in their houses, units and grounds. If, for some reason, the resort would make wise decisions and invest at the same level, the complaining would go away. The occasional upgrades we have seen had to happen in order for them to stay in business. (it was also necessary for real estate sales as well) Without a doubt, that mountain has some of the best if not the best terrain in the mid atlantic, which is why they have been able to remain a viable destination. Believe me, it's not because of the up hill capacity or modern and convenient base area. BTW.... Last weekend all the evidence I could see of the new surface lift was a shack sitting in last year's small terrain park. What goes with that????
If the owners were truly greedy as Andy suggests, they'd be looking for a buyer NOW when things are still good. If the real estate slump hits the valley (which it may not given the new road, and DC's insatiable demand for WV land), then it will be very hard to unload what's left of the mountain to a new buyer or group of buyers.
I believe Doc and Fred enjoy running the mountain and that's why they do it. There's no other good reason.
If they can just get the snowmaking system working effectively, everything will be ok. I've only experienced horrible lines on long weekend saturdays. The place is empty most other times. Hence, the old lifts will work for now.
BTW, the land sold to Nature Conservancy, which is now part of the Wildlife Refuge, is one of the few places in the country where the endangered Henslow's Sparrow is successfully breeding. The management of T-line made a poor choice in selling that land from a business perspective but from an environmental standard, it was a boon. And as the NYT article implied, the more protected land we have in the valley, the higher property values will rise due to lack of land for new development. Hence, the resort did two groups a big favor when that sale was made: the critters and the homo sapiens who already own property (a group that includes many locals).
Here's a dyspeptic forecast to brighten MM's day:
Is Winter Already Over?The reason this report makes me happy? It's from Accuweather, which means it's almost certainly wrong!
You're probably right about the chances of the report being accurate. However, I've been watching NOAA/NWS 14 day, one month, and 90 day forecasts and they pretty much agree with Accuweather. NOAA had initially called for a normal Dec. (temp wise) with a warm-up starting around mid-Jan. Because the mild weather moved into the mid-Atlantic about 6 weeks sooner than expected, I think that we're in for some cold weather near the end of Dec. or in early Jan, which will offset this mild spell. But, I still think that it's going to be a mild Winter overall. Yet, the local weatherman on TV 10 in Altoona is still calling for temps to be near normal for Jan. thru Mar. with normal snowfall.
Forest service webcam continues to show that The Drop has apparently as much snow on it as White Lightning, or at least a skiable amount of snow.....open that bad boy up. If they are trying to save it for the holiday season, shame on them because at the current rate of temps why not just let the people ski it before it is gone for good. Anyone notice the large bare spot forming on WL right where the trees used to be? my guess is that when removing the trees, they didn't level out the slope in teh end, and now all the snowmelt is funneling right down into that area, forming a river of sorts beneath the snowbase right there. that bare spot has expanded pretty significantly in hte last day or 2, and the Tline website has yet to show the temps getting much higher than 45.
All in all, while I'm not happy with the revised December forecast - he answers the question as "no, it's not over yet." If we count on the fact the Accuweather is wrong, would that mean we're counting on "yes, winter is over"?
Sorry, I've got to get back on the slope before I go crazy,
Clay
My Fiancee for life has just informed me that I have made my last Negative post on TL or Canaan.....If I know whats good for me!...You see we have a vested interest in TL as does Johnf. SOOOOO, Your right John..(Wink Wink).These are only minor tweeks we are squabbling about.My Gosh we will be getting snow Very soon. The Euro Alps are Dry & we should be blessed with the Amount of coverage we have...Long live Timberline...Real Snow Real Mountains!!!
Might I just add... right now I LOATHE British Columbia. 228 inches at Whistler and it's not even winter yet.
As I write this, I remember that my other job interview was in Bellingham, WA. I could be fired but buried to my neck in snow at Baker right now. Oh, dear Lord, I am so sorry for doing whatever I did (or will do) to deserve this...
Finally back below freezing at Tline tonight....website reading 28 degrees......hope they are patching things up
At 7 AM this morn the website is showing 24 degrees..the Sods webcam is showing 26..the humidity is high 87 percent but with the lower temps snowmaking is possible. I cannot see any signs of snowmaking thru their cam.....I bet they blew all nite so hard that they have all the snow they need!
I got up here (TL) at around 10 last night and haven't seen any signs of them turning the guns on. I haven't been over to the slopes yet, but I can usually hear them from here.
Clay
Gosh that sucks. As of 9:30 they are still showing 25 degrees....now i am no wizard when it comes to wet bulb and humidity playing a role in snowmaking, but if it is 25 degrees i'm sure you could put some product out there. they could have had at least 10 hours of snowmaking w/ temps in the 20s last night. snowshoe made snow and opened up 4 more runs. i know timberline has snow laying around still on drop and off the wall, and they have a bare patch on WL. would it have killed them to ride teh snowmobiles up the hill last night and fire on a gun or two, maybe open up another trail so this weekend wouldn't be 100 people crusing down WL every run. A lot of snow can be made in 10-12 hours, at least enough to ensure they at least keep WL open during hte next few days when temps may hit 60. still wanting to be optimistic, but looks like my trip midweek this week may be a washout, i think we'll end up spending more time in timbers pub than on the hill
They don't have any stationary guns on WL, just OTW and the drop so that's why they aren't making patch snow there. They will need to do it soon though or I'll need my rock skis. Maybe they were making on salamander. You can't hear those guns from the bottom. If sally doesn't get open, Christmas week could be a bust and WL will become a bowling alley. I'm trying to decide if it's gonna be worth the trip. Maybe I can start on home improvements at the place on Bonner Mtn.
I say we need to sacrifice a virgin to Ullr and make sure everyone has switched to winter beer
.
It's hard for me to describe - it seems like it's melting under the lift, but the portion off to the skier's left seemed fine this weekend. My son even commented on the amount of untracked on that side.
The good news is that, according to today's snow report, they've reopened "The Ceiling" and bumped their trail count up to 9
Clay
ah the ceiling strikes back.....defying all 60 degree odds.
My group rolls up this evening praying for snowmaking tues/wed nights. not expecting much at all at this point, but it'll be nice to get up there.
We were up this past weekend and it was nice (even with the thousands of boy scouts from Richmond
) I did get to ride the lift with quite a few and it gave me something to talk to them about (I work in Richmond). The only downside of having only 9 trails open (well, really 3) is that you go a little stir crazy doing the same runs all day, but I used the opportunity to work on what I call "my technique"
Have a great time and remember - limited snow is much better than no snow!
Clay
Quote:
ah the ceiling strikes back.....defying all 60 degree odds.
My group rolls up this evening praying for snowmaking tues/wed nights. not expecting much at all at this point, but it'll be nice to get up there.
Any chance you'll be able to log in and post a conditions report?
I believe our place has a wireless internet connection, and if that is the case i'll do my best to throw in some updates. I'll be skiing tues-thurs. At this point i was considering turning this skiing trip into a fishing trip, but i'm gonna hit up the snow gods and hope for a miracle.
On our way back from Colorado on Frontier Airlines I noticed (from the little TVs on the seats) that we were flying over WV. I looked out the window and what do I see? T-Line & Canaan Valley ski areas. It was cool to see them from the air, but kind of depressing too. T-line has snow on WL, The Drop and parts of Sally and (I think) Almost Heaven or Dew Drop. Canaan has no snow on the upper half of the mountain.
This season is looking bleak, but you can get your turns out west.
[In Summit County Copper is becoming one of my favorite mountains and A-Basin is a really unique place. If you haven't been to A-Basin you are missing out on a really great experience]
Quote:
i think we'll end up spending more time in timbers pub than on the hill
Be careful ndskier thats double black terrain in there , good plan for getting away from the cub scouts tho.
Quote:
I believe our place has a wireless internet connection, and if that is the case i'll do my best to throw in some updates. I'll be skiing tues-thurs. At this point i was considering turning this skiing trip into a fishing trip, but i'm gonna hit up the snow gods and hope for a miracle.
Thanks. I think I'll be bringing my hiking gear, along with the ski stuff, when I head out to the valley this friday. Oh well. And I'll advise my relatives from the midwest who are making the trip out her for Xmas to do the same.
Anyway here's hoping for a miracle from the snow gods!
Well the temp is about 30 at TL now & I think the web cam shows the guns blasting off. The Earlier pics were real clear & now they are FUZZY!..Hopefully thats the case & they will be able to lay down some good stuff the next couple of days
Quote:
The Earlier pics were real clear & now they are FUZZY!..
I was thinking the same thing - I hope the lens isn't just frozen over. This may be wishful thinking - but in the Dolly Sods webcam, it looks like blowing snow under the few lights they have on (looks like base lights, the bottom of the lift and up on the terrain park maybe )
Clay
At least someone is blowing, Wisp isn't yet per their cam pics.
Guns on at Wisp...Happy Camper Trail!
THINK SNOW
The Colonel
It looks like they blew snow last night. Does anyone know what trails were worked on?
From what I saw on the cams, it looked like they were blowing on the north camp trails, wisp trail, and areas on the top. The tubing park, main street, and other midstation or lower down trails didn't have guns blasting.
The guns were roaring last night and i expect more of the same tonight. They were focusing mainly on the base area and salamander. The Drop looks like with a little TLC it could be ready to go, and some patrollers were bombing it today, but i don't think they blew on it last night. They also were working hard on lower heaven. no other blue trails are being touched. White lightning is still as blast and holding well. no bare spots. the entire "widened" part is now dirt....the original width of lightning has great coverage and the grooming spreads it out nicely. All and all a great time
Quote:
The guns were roaring last night and i expect more of the same tonight. They were focusing mainly on the base area and salamander. The Drop looks like with a little TLC it could be ready to go, and some patrollers were bombing it today, but i don't think they blew on it last night. They also were working hard on lower heaven. no other blue trails are being touched. White lightning is still as blast and holding well. no bare spots. the entire "widened" part is now dirt....the original width of lightning has great coverage and the grooming spreads it out nicely. All and all a great time
Thanks for the sitrep.
Cool, cool. Things are going to cool down next week. New Years promises to be pretty good and even Christmas will be ok.
Thanks for the report. That's excellent intel, especially about WL. Glad that you had an enjoyable day.
Now, can you do something about the fetal snow in the forecast?
