2000' vert Mount porte Crayon,WV Weather summary
January 6, 2007
39 posts
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For Nov 28th the low at the base(2770') was 25 degrees & the high was 63....The summit(4770') had a low of 45 & a high of 54....It was partly cloudy with Snowmaking possible at the base in the morn......The highs were recorded the day before on the 27th....Any snowfall will be for a 24 hour period ending at 7am ...I will be posting this weather update whenever I remember to or whenever I feel like it!...Thank you for your support.
Where are you getting your temps and weather conditions from? Just curious. Thanks.
Kwill, This is a top secret operation using an ancient Chinese secret! When you are up at your place near the base you can give us/me some feedback info.What is your elevation? Did you see how cold it can get at the base/your home while being way above freezing at the Summit? This is one of the reasons that I am not so concerned about "This so called low base" that some Dc ski posters have voiced concern over. A properly designed Ski area of this size could have an upper Mtn to work with while the base is getting touched up with thru Inversion type snowmaking........Looks like the main energy with the much anticipated front will swing N/W of the area taking a good chunk of the snow(not all) with it. Behind the front looks like a solid week of snowmaking with a few shortwaves & light snow/flurries chances. The Mtn could have been great for the 12/8 weekend!
The inversions have been crazy these past few mornings. Yesterday, there was a 20 degree difference over the 800' vertical change from the summit at Snowshoe to the lake. 25 degrees if you go all the way to Marlington.
The elevation is about 2700' on my front deck. (depends if I'm drinking winter or summer beer). I do understand the wacky inversion. 20 degrees is major, though. I'll check on the temps and let you know.
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A properly designed Ski area of this size could have an upper Mtn to work with while the base is getting touched up with thru Inversion type snowmaking
Regrettably, an inversion driven cold patch is often not usable for snowmaking. The inversion is caused by heavy, wet air sinking below warmer, drier air. As such, the humidity tends to be very high, often to the point of condensing, e.g. fog. Snowmaking, of course, is dependent on wet bulb temperature more than just ambient temperature and is most effective with a cold, dry airmass.
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Regrettably, an inversion driven cold patch is often not usable for snowmaking. The inversion is caused by heavy, wet air sinking below warmer, drier air. As such, the humidity tends to be very high, often to the point of condensing, e.g. fog. Snowmaking, of course, is dependent on wet bulb temperature more than just ambient temperature and is most effective with a cold, dry airmass.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Mebbe kwillig is onto something. So is the wet bulb temperature higher or lower for summer beer or winter beer?
My own personal inversion factor is greater for summer beer than winter beer, but that could be a quirk of my own biology or some random genetic mutation. Survival of the fittest or Neanderthal Man?
Sorry for the oldie but goodie hijack, so carry on...
Humor is the best way to Hijack..keep the jokes coming!.this is a daily to weekly weather summary.It will always get back on track anyway. Yeh Tommo,Good point. The Inversion your talking about is the kind that gives Snowshoe its nickname.."The Island in the sky". Where you wake up in the morning at the Rimfire & look out your window to a blanket of soft fluffy clouds 5oo' to a 1000' or so below you. The kind of inversion that has been going on lately for about a week has been so dry that at 30 degrees at the base of snowshoe basin (4000') they have been able to blast a nice layer of snow. I saw it myself..up to about 4150' the spruces were plastered white! Down further to 2800' the temp got down to about 26 degrees. That would give you almost 1400' vert of snowmaking terrain.....The mountain today was the same as yesterday...waiting for FRI...stay tuned
Well here we are, Its dec 2nd & the summit had a low of 16 with 25 for the base. If the ski area was up & running there would be top to bottom snow making with a skiff of new snow on top.Cking the 4500' pinpoint NWS weather F-Cast for the next 7 days shows an ave high being 26.2 with a 15.8 ave lo for the week. I compared this to the 4500' pinpoint for snowshoe,wv & as I figured since MPC is about 40 miles further north in latitude.. the ave high was 1.7 degrees warmer With the ave low being 1 degree warmer.The snow chances were about 10% higher for MPC than the shoe......ITS ON!!
Using daily OBS taken at Snowshoe(4800') & Glady,WV (2800') & factoring snowfall Amounts at Canaan & the Shoe I have concluded that if the ski area had been in operation they would have beat this Global Warming Dec...although not with flying colors!.....The Ave LOW/HIGH BASE------LOW/HIGH Summit for DEC are 21/44 base....23/39 summit.....13 inches of snow fell on the MTN for Dec bringing the total for the year at 23. That is way below ave,could have a 100 allready on a good year! The coldest temp was a -3 at the base on the 9th & the summit had a -2,-2,-1 on the 8th,9th & 10th. The 1st day of Dec & the 17th were the warmest with temps warming to the low 60's at the base to around 50 at the Summit...Could have been worse!
Extrapolating from remote sites is never exact, but the temps you have are probably within a couple of degrees based on documented, reliable readings from the Garrett College weather station (el. 2600 but in the same general weather pattern). Even more accurate is the weather station on Canaan Mountain at 3715' and just across the valley. Here is the
Link to the weather station. Whitegrass also has pretty accurate snowfall totals for the last 15 years. While a bit lower than Porte Crayon, the totals are no doubt very similar. In summary, it would be extraordinarily unlikely to have 100" of snowfall in any month, though, especially December. Your optimistic views are great, but we are talking the West Virgina highlands, not the Cottonwood Canyons. 20 or 30 inches of snowfall would be more likely.
That said, let's hope we can return to a more normal weather pattern soon. Very soon.
Tommo,The 100 was for the season to date...if the mountain recieved 40 inches for jan & another 40 each for feb & march that would total out to 220 for the season. Unlikely?...There was 320"'s reported at 4268' in 95/96 by a person who worked at TL then.Remember..I said GOOD year..I was comparing the 23 so far(bieng worst) to the 100(being great) I thought you would have brought up the fact that the low temps at the base didn't necessarily mean good snowmaking temps as you posted earlier.
Oh & I use canaan hts,Meyers B&B in Davis,WVRocks site at the junction of 32/72,all the OBS all over WV on the Hydro report,Dolly sods cam,weather station at MT Storm,NWS F-cast disc for both Charleston & Pittsburg..WG site & I am watching International Falls,MN for the next cooldown! Alaska is up to 25 degrees below norm right now (15 to 25 degrees below 0 ...for highs! Come on down!!!!
Tommo,
I am a weather novice (but have really started to pay attention this year
). I noticed that the station you posted tracks its highs and lows from 7AM to 7AM. Do you know if this is usual? I've always just assumed that most tracked them from 12AM to 12AM.
Clay
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The 100 was for the season to date...if the mountain recieved 40 inches for jan & another 40 each for feb & march that would total out to 220 for the season. Unlikely?...There was 320"'s reported at 4268' in 95/96 by a person who worked at TL then.
95/96 was, indeed, an epic year. Whitegrass reported 237" for the season. As to 320" just 900 feet higher - I'm skeptical of that, to say the least. It's just way too far outside of all the other data points.
As to the 100" year to date, that would, indeed, be a very good year, but you're right, it could happen. I read your post wrong and thought you were suggesting that amount for December alone. On the other hand, I've snowshoed or backpacked at the Sods, on Canaan Mtn, and on the Roaring Plains virtually every Xmas week for last 30 years, and have never seen more than a foot or, at most, two of snowpack, so in my expericence actual laying snow is usually modest, even in a good year.
As to snowmaking, it was clearly great for about 3 days or so. And thank goodness for that - otherwise there'd be no skiing at all so far this season. Now we need another blast for at least 3 or 4 days or even the areas west of the front could be forced to close, which I don't ever remember happening in January.
Glad to hear about the temps in Alaska - I saw a report on the news (or might have been TWC) yesterday about the record snowfall (!!) they have been getting in Anchorage. Seems the el nino has sent much more moisture to the far north while it's kept us blanketed with this rancid flow from the gulf.
Yeh Tommo, Even though the math works out, the fact that our heavier snows usually fall later in the season means you are right & I was a little fast throwing that figure out...I have always felt that the 237 figure that WG posted was too low. I spent a good deal of time up in the valley that year & remember all the snow. I remember a posted snowfall count pasted on the window at the Davis plaza gas station/store & i remember it bieng higher than 237...I cannot remember the total though. The 320 came from a person that worked the chairlift at the top of TL for what its worth....I can remember heading off on X-Country trail marker 18 off of the Salamander run in early March for a smoke break & falling up to my chest in snow...thats a 5 foot snow cover!...Also WG used the old method of cking snowfall back then...get up in the morning & put a ruler in the snow...Using the NWS method the tally would have been higher......I know that I have tried to measure snow up there & it is almost impossible with all the blowing & drifting.Anybody ever see a foot of snow blow off into the woods?
I suspect that the 7 am to 7 am timeframe is due to a human making the observations, but I don't know. You ought to send an email to Mr. Lesher and ask him.
canaanwx@hotmail.com I agree that it seems a tad unusual. One reason I like the Garrett College weather site is that it's fully automated and has detailed, historical data available going back to 1999. NWS has additional data from the airport, but it's not as readily available. Here's the GC site;
Garrett College Weatherstation
Question: I think I know which mountain is Porte Crayon but I'm not sure. Can you tell me a spot where one can get a good look at it and what is the compass bearing? If it's the one I am thinking, it looks very wind exposed. It also looks like a long tough trip to do as backcountry. Is there an online topo map?
There are a couple of really nice looking steep shots of (probably) < 400 vertical feet each that I see all the time, are close to the road and they look like they would catch snow rather than having it blow off. One is a steep meadow on the right side of 32 as you head S out of Harman. There are often cows there. Another is a power line cut near the factory/power plant/whatever ~ 1 mile east of the 32/55 intersection at Seneca rocks. It looks to be outside the factory fence and it rises straight up toward the Sods. Are either of these places skied? What kind of permissions would you need? Both, but particularly the latter, would require a lot of snow and that may not happen often.
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I suspect that the 7 am to 7 am timeframe is due to a human making the observations, but I don't know. You ought to send an email to Mr. Lesher and ask him. canaanwx@hotmail.com
I agree that it seems a tad unusual. One reason I like the Garrett College weather site is that it's fully automated and has detailed, historical data available going back to 1999. NWS has additional data from the airport, but it's not as readily available. Here's the GC site; Garrett College Weatherstation
I believe the NWS uses the 7am to 7am approach for all their stations. I'm sure it's automated now but it may have its roots in manual weather observations. Whatever the reason, it can be misleading since the coldest time of the day is typically around 7am. That means one really cold morning will usually set the low for both that day and the day before.
denis
topo picture Got a great view of MPC from kwillg6's place on Bonner Mountain Road in Dry Fork. Wind exposure and from what i've seen it catches the morning sun would be factors in opening a ski area there.
Hey Jimmy,
Looks like both links are to the online topo map...
Thanks for the topo. I'm not seeing a picture, just the topo twice.
Edit - got it. Thanks.
I'm betting Jonathon Jessup didn't take that picture this winter!
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Can you tell me a spot where one can get a good look at it and what is the compass bearing?
One of the best places to see MPT from a road is to head east on Laneville road from just south of Canaan Valley on RT 32. As you drop towards the Red Creek valley, look to your right (South) and you're looking at the slopes of MPT. The "ideal" place for skiing would be in the draw just east of the powerline/pipeline cut: the two sides have a northeast and northwest exposure and about 2000 feet or so of well sloped vertical. Here is a link to several photos by Jonathan Jessup on the WV Highland Conservancy Web Site;
Mount Porte Crayon
It is not an easy place to hike to but there are several routes. One way is to take the South Prong trail from FS19 and walk southwest. Pickup the fire road to the left to the Roaring Plains trailhead to MPC. Here is a link to the WVHC map archive with the trails marked (click on any of the pdf links on the left)
Roaring Plains
Building a ski area here, especially at the higher elevations would be very controversial, to say the least. But it is a great (albeit water source limited) place to hike, backpack and XC ski. A more wild version of Dolly Sods to the north....
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One of the best places to see MPT from a road is to head east on Laneville road from just south of Canaan Valley on RT 32. As you drop towards the Red Creek valley, look to your right (South) and you're looking at the slopes of MPT. The "ideal" place for skiing would be in the draw just east of the powerline/pipeline cut: the two sides have a northeast and northwest exposure and about 2000 feet or so of well sloped vertical.
It sounds like this is the same 'power line cut' that goes over Bald Knob and Weiss Knob between CV and TL. I recall Chip Chase saying that he has skied that from the "backdoor" of CV to Laneville, 17 miles and a 3600 vertical foot drop. If so it is actually a gas line; not that it matters. I'll bet that it is the same gas line that I referred to as the steep shot behind the factory at Seneca Rocks (see above).
It's either the same pipeline or they both tee into a larger one in the Laneville area. If you go to google maps and search on Laneville, WV the pipeline is very clear running in a generally north/south line directly through Laneville. And, you're right, it then heads almost directly toward Seneca Rocks and then, I believe, on up the north fork valley towards Headwaters.
It would have taken a pretty good snow year to ski it down from CV to Laneville: that's all directly south facing slopes. Must have been in 97!
NOOOO...But it will SOON!..Tommo, You got the right MTN but the wrong side...Bill Bright has been buying up land on the route 32 side.The side you are talking about would be a great place..Holds Snow all winter..just not for sell.
This Mountain has been Mountain Mashed ever since the prospect of a ski area on it came out a few years back. There have been all these willy nilly asumptions...monkey see monkey doo type of remarks..people driving buy 1 time & looking up at what they think is MPC even though not being able to see the main ski area from their vantage point & then posting these "facts".....Most people think that they are looking at the slopes when in fact they are only looking up at these exposed fingers that fall down off a 3800 to 4000' ridge.Then we get this "Windy & exposed" crap. That mountain ain't no more windy than any Mtn on the east coast..Period! If you could pan to the right on that PIC you would see a 4200' flat topped ridge that would make an excelent place for the Village.(north facing drops off of this ridge)The worst winds come after the cold fronts every 7 to 10 days. The winds will sweep from right to left on the picture which in my opinion will be slowed down below 4100' by this mountain ridge......This ridge is not to be mistaken to be High Mtn..that is just to the south......Ck out the powder stashes where it did get blown off! CK out the main Mtn ..you cannot even hardly see the spruces they are so ladden down...no snow blowing off there! The background main slopes are set back & about 800' higher than the highest exposed "Finger".......This is the Mount Mansfield of the south...anybody that just doesn't DROOL at the potential this mountain has had better get their pulse Checked!
Ok, you can see that flat topped ridge if you were smarter than me & clicked on to the "next" picture frame which will show a much more full sized view! Damm that is one hell of a mtn!! I'm proud to say that is MY view from my deck...although a little less zoomed in......Jimmi, How could you see the top of MPC from Kwills? Can you? I cannot even see the top of TL from the base lodge.
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Tommo, You got the right MTN but the wrong side...Bill Bright has been buying up land on the route 32 side.The side you are talking about would be a great place..
I was responding to a question about the location of MPC and possible woods skiing/lines on the mountain, not the location of the feared/rumored ski area. As I understand it, the land that Mr. Bright has reportedly been interested in is a bit further around to the west as you state. The "finger" of private land that approaches the summit can be clearly seen in the Southwest quadrant map in the WVHC link and would be a potential location for a very high "summit" lift. Of course, there's insufficient gradient at that point for good downhill sliding, but it would be an interesting place to get off of a lift.
On a personal note, I tend to generally be favorable towards recreational development, and believe it often brings meaningful benefit with much less negative impact than traditional heavy extraction industries (or even some modern farming operations.) That said, any plans to put a village or other major development at the 4200' level would, in my opinion, be an absolute travesty. Building a few lifts and trails with the necessary snowmaking infrastructure is one thing. Snowshoe like development is something else all together and, it seems to me, is best confined to the valley if built at all.
If (and I don't think it's very likely) a new ski area were to be developed there, I think it will be a signficant challenge to deal with the water needs for the snowmaking infrastructure. If the ski area were reduced in size with just one or two runs to the top, it may be feasible, but I can't see where the water would come from to make snow on 2000+ vertical feet. Red Creek is the only significant tributary in the area and it is not particularily large, often flowing at less than a 200cfs. When all is said and done, the Tory Mtn area sure seems like it has more of the necessary ingredients at a lower environmental cost.
As to it being the Mt Mansfield of the south, that's not a bad comparison. But I think many Vermonters would prefer that much of Stowe, esp. the Cliff House area, would have not been developed in the way it currently exists. And, forutnately, any additionl development near the top is unlikely to ever occur.
I think this water issue is overrated...where is Snowshoes big water source? A man made lake at the base of the basin...You could do the same thing at the base of MPC...CK out the drainage! Please don't tell me(anybody in particular) that in the summer things dry up a little...We don't need water in summer! Plenty of moisture up there now.Where are all these great water supplies for Killington,Stratton,sugarbush & even stowe themselves.....Where does Whitetail get all their water..The Potomac? I am really Ignorant to this & would really like to hear about all these great water sources these ski areas have. All I know is that I have skied many of these places & have only noticed that a few have access(1 or 2) to any large rivers or lakes........the red ck is a gushin right now!
Maybe Andy is thinking of something like "The Colony" for Almost Heaven.
So I'm sitting here bored, waiting for the clock to hit five, and just for yucks I clicked on The Canyons Real Estate page. Remember that abomination that wiped out all their intermediate skiing? I had forgotten it's called "The Colony," which sounds to me like the name of something out of an Aliens movie. But it gets worse. Here's the opening paragraph to their real estate brochure:
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The vision was clear. Start with 4,600 acres of pristine alpine terrain with lush forests, rolling meadows, sparkling streams and Utah's famous powder snow. Then, with the philosophy of less is more, build a private, gated community offering approximately 274 home sites to the fortunate few. The creation? The largest ski-in / ski-out home sites in North America, averaging around 8 acres.
Could they possibly write something more tone-deaf, pretentious, and otherwise sickening? Is this what it takes to make a resort work these days? Will Almost Heaven have to do something like this to survive??? I think we all have some level of agreement that it takes a real estate plan to make a ski *resort* work these days (traditional hills excluded here). In honor of this impending catastrophe, I've written a sales pitch:
"Introducing 'The Lair'. 2000 acres of formerly pristine Roaring Plains wilderness hacked up and given to only the most exclusive lobbyists from DC. Drive your SUV down So Long Salamander Avenue and marvel at all you've achieved in your own life. Look down your nose and downhill at the peons skiing past you. Feel confident as you realize your sewage will flow into Red Creek and the drinking water of the quiet trailer trash dump called Harman. The Lair. You ruined the American political system, isn't it time you ruined nature too?"
when you are bored & unhappy you might think of these "Alarmist" schemes...But actually you might be on to something. My worst nightmare would be that Mr. Bright cannot get the top of the Mtn & Decides to develope anyway...Gated Comunity & a watered down version of "Almost Heaven"...UGGGHHH....But the Hacking of the Roaring Plains just won't Happen, With or without a Full fledged ski area in operation. Been off work for a couple of hours now Roger...got to love the EDT
It's dead before it even starts
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I think this water issue is overrated...where is Snowshoes big water source? A man made lake at the base of the basin...You could do the same thing at the base of MPC...CK out the drainage!
The water issue is very real and is not easily solved. The man made lake at Snowshoe is on Shavers Fork, which is a river of considerable volume, even up near the headwaters. Moreover, they owned the land on which the lake was built. As best I can tell, the land in question near MPC does not encompass Red Creek (and certainly not Dry Fork River), thus they would need a permit to even consider pumping from the creek (not to mention a place to bulld a sizable lake for holding purposes.
If you think this isn't an issue, use your Mt. Mansfield example for comparison and take a look at the issues in Vermont. Sugarbush, for example, worked for many (close to 10?) years to get additional impoundment rights to the Mad River. Waterville Valley, Loon Mtn, Killington and others also went through a lengthy process. (I beleve the Loon process started in 1986 and was finally approved in 2005).
In short, if you want to impound 7 million or so gallons of water, you typically need to go through the EIS process, which is not trivial. Of course, things may be different in WV, which traditionally does not look too hard at environmental concerns.
So is your post Myrto
..Bottom line is The person with the Bucks(Bill Bright) wouldn't have invested this much time & money if he didn't think it was doable....Think about it!....Anyway since he is such a secret squirrel about the project I don't know if he still is trying or the deal is dead.I wish there was some news. If he decides to abort the project, all you non skiers & granola crunchin tree huggers can bid on my place...Here I come New Hampshire!...( You expect me to be satisfied with just TL & Canaan with their current pace of improvement??!) My view would just heartbreak me in the long run.
New Hampshire! Now you're talking. It really is very frustrating at times to be living here in the mid atlantic when places like NH, NY, VT and, of course, the West have such terrific mountains. The curse of family, employment, etc... Oh well, maybe in my next life....
Nah, moving isn't so hard. It ain't as hard as regretting 40 years down the road! I'm glad I moved, even if it was just to the midwest, it's a very different way of life out here. Looking forward to my next step west though...
I moved out west 2 times in my life...Washington state & new mexico....Washington State was my Fav...But it was toooo Glooomy!,,At Times. While living in NM I kept smelling my hands for the fish blood smell that I missed so bad...High Desert & Mountains are not enough for me....Got Family in FL & have explored the whole state( Took my 15 foot boat 8 miles out to Anclote key over X-Mas..Nice)..But the Carolinas are the BOMB! If the salt air & the smell of Fish guts don't turn you on ..Head West!..Thats why I would like to see a big ski area to compliment TL & Canaan Valley...So I don't have to Travel too far...Long live the West Va Alpps!
