Snowshoe Review in Ski Magazine
October 11, 2006
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Did anyone else take offense at the Ski Magazine review of Snowshoe where they stated fresh snow was wasted on the novice skiers of the Mid-Atlantic, that Snowshoe's clientele included Yahoos and Rednecks, and the terrain there qualifies as, at best, advanced intermediate.
Now, I'm not challenging the truthiness of some of these assertions, but I'm downright disturbed that Ski Magazine elected to make them. I sent them a letter essentially stating that the west's vaunted double blacks are childsplay compared to the boiler plate, frozen crud, cement, and slush one can encounter on a single top to bottom run here in the Mid-Atlantic.
Novice my ass!
Now that you mention it, the hair on the back of my neck did stand up a little bit! I thought the same thing about the hardpack and it brought to mind something that Lito Tejada-Flores wrote in his book "Breakthough on the new skis":
"Eastern skiers are a tough breed; they grin and bear it. In my adopted home state of Colorado, we are completely spoiled by a wealth of soft dry snow; powder, and packed powder. Ice is incredibly rare in the Rockies, but still some skiers complain about ice when conditions are merely firm and a long, long way from real ice"
I need to get out west sometime on those hills that are always covered in powder and I would enjoy seeing some of those folks come back here and ski the "advanced intermediates".
Hmmm. Maybe an exchange program can be arranged?!?!
Clay
Didn't see and would be curious to see if remarks are as harsh as you say. Another thing about a run like Cupp on a busy day is the crowd factor and swarming, slightly out of control people - ups the challenge factor.
Not to start an argument, and although somewhat harsh, their comments are dead on. Snowshoe is not known for anything above advanced internediate terrain (with the exception of Lower Shay's), and I don't think boilerplate ice is that common at Snowshoe (more PA and NE). Snowshoe's client's are mostly families, and their slopes reflect it. Were the comments a bit out of line? Maybe? But nothing to go writing them about.....................
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Not to start an argument, and although somewhat harsh, their comments are dead on.
I agree. Snowshoe 19, Mad River Glen 20, come on. I don't even think Snowshoe is the best ski/resort area in West Virginia 
, much less #19 in the East, but that's just me 
. I think the Ski Magazine rankings serve their advertisers better than their readers. Maybe they should have more regions than east & west.
I'm with ya Jimmy. You can't get mad at these things only laugh about! On hill dining and lodging? I'll give Snowshoe the edge there, but everthing else goes to MRG.
I wrote them about it. The novice skier comment was directed to the Mid-Atlantic, not just Snowshoe, and I see as high a proportion of quality skiers in this region as I see anywhere. Now, are there better skiers elsewhere? Sure, but novice implies rank beginner, and that's simply not fair to all the fine Mid-Atlantic skiers out there.
Mmmm... The article did mention several things that I agree with, although there was some insensitivity. Yes, the skiers in New England and out West have a much larger sense of ettiquette (with notable exceptions)... But New England and Colorado/Utah etc. have a long-developed ski culture and so many unwritten rules. Kids learn skiing at gym class in grammar schools in many New England towns. There are many skiers in the mid-Atlantic who are not cognizant of ski ettiquette. The responsibility code is unknown, by and large, in Southern ski areas, and I put most of the responsibility on the ski areas that don't make an effort at enforcement.
On the other hand, to my chagrin, there is a general acceptance of the word "redneck" as a pejorative against anyone who sports a Southern accent. It is as unjustified as saying that all Yankees are rude or that all Latinos are lazy. However, skiing being a Western and Northern sport, the authority figures tend to have these prejudices.
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Did anyone else take offense at the Ski Magazine review of Snowshoe where they stated fresh snow was wasted on the novice skiers of the Mid-Atlantic, that Snowshoe's clientele included Yahoos and Rednecks, and the terrain there qualifies as, at best, advanced intermediate.[qoute]
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sorry tried to qoute...don't know how...above is the qoute below is my comments...
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I didn't read the article..but I think fresh snow can be enjoyed by all ability levels...I also think trail ratings are obviously made in relative relationship to individual mountains but having said that the most difficult trails at snowshoe or any mid-atlantic resort are blue at best compared to most resorts out west...you can argue conditions but trails in the midatlantic are just not extremely difficult at all when compared to out west... they might be less enjoyable or not even worth skiing/riding on hardpack days but I still wouldn't call them black in relation to trails out west...As far as Yahoo's and rednecks- every one deserves a chance to enjoy the wonderful sport of skiing...but there is a phenomenon I refer to as the Nascar Phenomenon that I see day in and day out in the Mid-Atlantic that I have never seen out west...that is the skiers who point there skis downhill totally out of control and never make a turn yahooing and screaming the entire way...it's also known as the "hey man watch this phenomenon" or the "hey man, hold my beer phenomenon" I do think this is way to common to the Mid-Atlantic and shows how most customers treat ski resorts as amusement parks. In my opinion it's a danger to everyone on the slopes. I've actually heard dozens of skiers and boarders from out west as well as up north and from around here make the same observation in shock and concern for the safety of themselves and others...the fact is most people don't realize the inherent danger that is involved with skiing and riding, maybe because it's more crowded or the terrain is smaller, but I see this more in the Mid-Atlantic than I do out West.
Look, Southern skiers don't get to ski that much...Some of them are lucky enough to ski once a year...BUT they have HEART..The same Spirit that They showed during the civil war...REBEL YELL!!! I love the south & after MPC is built U Yankees lovers can take a hike!..PS I Will Infiltrate Stowe & Whiteface..just for Intelligence gathering
Just a bit of history about the term redneck; that term was first used to refer to Scots/Irish in colonial times. The Scots moved to Ireland and during the potato famine moved to the US mostly Western PA. The redneck refers to the red scarves they wore as a part of their traditional attire. These were the folks that lead the Whiskey Rebellion because the scum sucking Federalist lead by A. Hamilton imposed a tax on home distilled whiskey which was the only reliable currency at the time in the region. Of course commercial distillers were treated more favorably under the tax code since the Federalist were the emerging capitalist class and sought to bind business and government or rather have government serve business. As you may well know, the rebellion was defeated. Many of the home distillers took their stills and headed for the southern hills of Appalachia. Thus Pittsburgh is indeed the Queen City of Appalachia.
Just to remain on topic, Ski mag is a dieing breed soon to be replace by the likes of DCSki, TGR and EpicSki as an interactive source of snow sport information. Ski mag is irrelevant and their opinion matters little.
Mid-Atlantic skiers rule! Long live the rednecks!
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Just a bit of history about the term redneck; that term was first used to refer to Scots/Irish in colonial times. The Scots moved to Ireland and during the potato famine moved to the US mostly Western PA. The redneck refers to the red scarves they wore as a part of their traditional attire. These were the folks that lead the Whiskey Rebellion because the scum sucking Federalist lead by A. Hamilton imposed a tax on home distilled whiskey which was the only reliable currency at the time in the region. Of course commercial distillers were treated more favorably under the tax code since the Federalist were the emerging capitalist class and sought to bind business and government or rather have government serve business. As you may well know, the rebellion was defeated. Many of the home distillers took their stills and headed for the southern hills of Appalachia. Thus Pittsburgh is indeed the Queen City of Appalachia.
Just to remain on topic, Ski mag is a dieing breed soon to be replace by the likes of DCSki, TGR and EpicSki as an interactive source of snow sport information. Ski mag is irrelevant and their opinion matters little.
Mid-Atlantic skiers rule! Long live the rednecks!
the whiskey rebellion was started by relatives of mine. My mom's grandmother was a miller. My moms great-grand mother(meaning my greatgreat grandmother) was alive during the time of the rebellion. this took place in the area around what is now South Park, Pa. so i guess I am the biggest redneck around. 
wait this thread was about snowshoe?
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Just a bit of history about the term redneck; that term was first used to refer to Scots/Irish in colonial times. The Scots moved to Ireland and during the potato famine moved to the US mostly Western PA. The redneck refers to the red scarves they wore as a part of their traditional attire. These were the folks that lead the Whiskey Rebellion because the scum sucking Federalist lead by A. Hamilton imposed a tax on home distilled whiskey which was the only reliable currency at the time in the region. Of course commercial distillers were treated more favorably under the tax code since the Federalist were the emerging capitalist class and sought to bind business and government or rather have government serve business. As you may well know, the rebellion was defeated. Many of the home distillers took their stills and headed for the southern hills of Appalachia. Thus Pittsburgh is indeed the Queen City of Appalachia.
Just to remain on topic, Ski mag is a dieing breed soon to be replace by the likes of DCSki, TGR and EpicSki as an interactive source of snow sport information. Ski mag is irrelevant and their opinion matters little.
Mid-Atlantic skiers rule! Long live the rednecks!
Thats it buddy you crossed the line! That Scum Sucking federalist, A. Hamilton, is my ancestor. How dare you insult my family name! This can only be settled by the dueling pistol I tells ye!!
Fact: It is actualy true my mother Sara J. Hamilton (now Romano) is a geneologist and her research is that we are direct descendant of Alexander Hamilton.
I agree that the article slights the Mid-Atlantic skiers. There is a lot of truth in the article but the redneck, yahoos, etc. comments were really unnecessary.
But let me post this question: Would Snowshoe even be ranked if it were not an Intrawest Property?
I read the article about Snow Shoe. It is nice to see a midatlantic ski area mentioned however they continual description of midatlantic skiers as novices, yahoos, rednecks, is disturbing. If I have ever seen a case of a backhanded compliment this is it. There really is no challenging terrain in the midatlantic (besides a couple slopes at laurel mountain and blueknob) and the conditions do NOT make up for it. However challenge is only one of 20 critera they use and snow shoe (as well as 7S which was ranked 16) is a resorts where average people would enjoy spending a weekend. This is why Ski chose to rate SS. They did say a few nice things about the resort, but the didn't seem to have much nice to say about the people. The language used ro describe the patrons boarders on a racial slur. It shows poor journalism.
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The language used ro describe the patrons boarders on a racial slur.
And everyone got on Rich for exaggerating? 
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The language used ro describe the patrons boarders on a racial slur.
And everyone got on Rich for exaggerating?
Rich did not post in this thread IIRC. The terms yahoo and redneck in the context are clearly racial epithets. The "review" is horrible journalism.
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Rich did not post in this thread IIRC. The terms yahoo and redneck in the context are clearly racial epithets. The "review" is horrible journalism.
I think you missed my point................
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The language used ro describe the patrons boarders on a racial slur.
And everyone got on Rich for exaggerating?
Rich did not post in this thread IIRC. The terms yahoo and redneck in the context are clearly racial epithets. The "review" is horrible journalism.
I read the review and except for stating that basically all mid-atlantic skiers suck, I totally agree. It can be mayhem there with all the bad skiers, and yes they are yahoos.
The redneck comment was a quote from a reader and he was saying something like "this is great, beer rednecks & snow!" 
Edit: If you are a Yahoo, I apologize if I might have offended you and members of your race. 
[quoteI read the review and except for stating that basically all mid-atlantic skiers suck,
Good point. We all know that all mid-atlantic skiers do not suck. I think it would be fair to state that in the mid-atlantic we do not have that long a season, and the access to the mountians in limited, so most people do not get to ski as much as they would like to, or develope their skills as much as our friends in NE or out west.
Fair assessment?
Brian, I probably got to ski as much as most people would like, 40 days last year. During the high part of the season, when the hills are crowded, I watch other skiers and think I'm probably a better skier than 90 percent of them, real hot stuff. Then the season winds down, mostly the diehards and locals on the hill and 90 percent of the skiers on the hill are better than me.
Our ski areas may not have the kick ur ass terrain that out west or new england has, but there are plenty of great, really outstanding skiers on our local hills, guys and gals that would stand out anywhere.
PS- Looks like Kennedy is preparing a sacrifice to appease Ullr over on that First Flakes thread, anything special you'd like this year?
Jimmy,
I can tell you that I've seen some pretty interesting "technique"
out west as well as here at home. I would certainly agree that the sport is a larger part of culture on the NE and West Ski areas and thus, more people able to ski well and observe some sort of ski/slide etiquette.
-Warren-
Since when are Rednecks and Yahoos races???? The only race that is throwing around ethnic slurs is the senatorial race in VA with the Macacas...
and I hate to admit it but the article on the shoe is not off base. Anybody who has worked ski school or patrol there will tell you that. It's the reason I avoid the place except for very early or late season when the yahoos go home.
I'm not so much sacrificing as resorting to petty grovelling and averting of the eyes.
Oh and I kind of have to agree that I find there is truth in the review even though I don't think it's fair to refer to everyone as rednecks. I very often feel like there is a core of very good skiers and riders in the mid atlantic but there is a bigger percentage of those who don't have a clue what's going on around them. But the same can be said of anywhere. Go to Breckenridge during peak season and the most dangerous part of the mountain is down near the main lodge. The more difficult terrain is deserted because it genuinely scares people. They understand that black diamond means advanced. In the midatlantic there is a tendancy for those with enough bravado but not necessarily skill to attempt black diamonds thinking they're merely a faster blue. Under normal circumstances I feel like this is your risk to take, however, because our trails are narrow and therefore crowded there is a higher risk for these people to hurt someone else and thats not acceptable. Key example is Cupp Run. A fun trail made not so fun due to the crowds and one I suffered perhaps my worst wreck on due to another slider obliviousness. Cupp is fun for the first hour and last hour of the day because these seem to be the only times you can string together a solid top to bottom without doing two turns and stopping, two turns and stopping all the way down.
I think Snowshoe (like many resorts here) depends on timing. Skiing Lower Cupp on a Saturday afternoon during high season is like commuting in DC during rush hour. However, skiing Cupp late Sunday or better yet, midweek, is a dream. There's a lot of talk in DC about telecommuting and flex schedules but the truth of the matter is that most people don't or can't make it to the slopes except during peak time periods. I personally am willing to put in 8 hours on a Saturday to be able to ski half day at Whitetail on Monday. Four hours midweek is worth eight on the weekends and the the price is cheaper too. Clearly, black slopes in UT are harder than the ones here, but skiing is not always about challenge. One can have a wonderful experience skiing Cupp and watching the sun go down late in the afternoon, skiing in an out of shadows, experiencing everything from powder to corn in a single run. And it's so much easier to just throw your skis in the car and go than deal with the hassles of air travel.
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PS- Looks like Kennedy is preparing a sacrifice to appease Ullr over on that First Flakes thread, anything special you'd like this year?
Yea, I guess it just when I go out west, I see all these people, and think to myself, "How did they get so good"?
When I talk to them and find out that they live 30 minutes away from places like Squaw or Alpine, and they get season passes and ski 40 - 50 days a year, I get my answer....
I could get a season pass to Wintergreen or Massanutten and do the two hour drive every Saturday and Sunday, but I will probably not get that much better.
I guess I should start looking in the classifieds in Denver or Sacramento or something.
I don't disagree at all. It's not always about challenge and there are absolutely great times to go and terrible times to go. But when it's terrible it can be really terrible. Take Liberty Whitetail or Roundtop on MLK weekend. Avoid like the plague.
Look at it this way. You have someone going to Snowshoe to do a review on the mountain and rate it. God knows how many places this person has been to. Step back from what we know about skiing or riding around here and imagine you've never been to Snowshoe and you're skiing a peak day. What do you think it looks like. There you are in a 20 minute lift line zoo. You don't know that maybe Widowmaker or Silver Creek is quieter. Without that insight that only comes from riding there a few times the place can come off as a mess. If you remember last year I swore off Snowshoe for good and got into a flame war with Rich about it. I still feel the same way. For me Snowshoe just isn't worth the effort even knowing how to navigate the mountain. I think it certainly has the best terrain around here when it's quiet and if I was in the position where I could readily take a few days off work and hit it midweek that would be great. Vacation days are precious though so I have to make them count. Therefore I go west.
Snowshoe can be an awesome place (for the mid-Atlantic) provided that you're lucky enough to find a day when it isn't a "mob-scene". Unfortunately, more times than not, the place is over-run with mega crowds. The Resort has simply over-built to the point that the crowds usually exceed the uphill capacity of the lifts and skiable acreage.
Another aspect of the massive development at the Shoe are high prices. It's no longer cost effective to spend a ski-week at the Shoe when you can board a plane and ski FAR superior terrain in Utah for equal or LESS total cost.
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...there is a general acceptance of the word "redneck" as a pejorative against anyone who sports a Southern accent. It is as unjustified as saying that all Yankees are rude or that all Latinos are lazy. However, skiing being a Western and Northern sport, the authority figures tend to have these prejudices.
My girlfriend is a Latino redneck who roots for the Yankees. 
For the life of me, however, I can't get her to say "howdy y'all." It's so cute when she says it but she just gets embarrassed. Really, I have to get more whiskey in her and I'm sure the southernness will shine through...
Frankly I enjoy skiing with rednecks. I love listening to people whoop and holler while they flop around the ski slopes in their hunting outfits. It's something I used to see quite a bit at Canaan Valley and adds to the fun on the slopes. What would skiing in West Virginia be without rednecks?
^that is only correct for one person. the problem with that sort of cost analysis is the cost of buying 5 plane tickets plus renting a car (in my case) vs. driving one car to snowshoe or whereever - its huge, approx $1800 vs $150. nonetheless, we avoid weekends anywhere as much as possible.
but yea, from snowshoe on down south its yahoo time on the weekends, can't be denied. i've only been to timberline on that mega rainey saturday last year so i don't have much frame of reference. How do the weekend crowds at tline and canaan compare with shoe? i percieve the weekend crowd at wintergreen to be a little less yahoo, a little more florida, but still there and still thick.
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How do the weekend crowds at tline and canaan compare with shoe?
Size wise or G/Q?
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Frankly I enjoy skiing with rednecks. I love listening to people whoop and holler while they flop around the ski slopes in their hunting outfits. It's something I used to see quite a bit at Canaan Valley and adds to the fun on the slopes. What would skiing in West Virginia be without rednecks?
hmmmmmm.... wonder what kind of review ski mag would give for Moonshine Mountain. Seems to me they were pretty inpressed with the ice bars, they mentioned them in several reviews. What's an ice bar anyways; i don't know but whatever they are we'd have em all over our mountain. Rednecks, they ain't seen rednecks til they seen rednecks on a max dose of everclear.
There was another review a few years back on SS That was much more redneck friendly..Cannot remember who wrote it...they actually made it sound neat that you could be yourself & not have to be hung up on bieng classy Ect.. I can remember staying in the Jordan at Sunday River Maine a few years back & not thinking anything of it I skied in my full body Cammo suit...The Doorman was shocked as he opened the door & I even got a side glance from Mathew(Spell?) Perry of friends who was Cking on something at the front desk. Coming back out The Doorman made a sidecrack Which I made him explain...Anyway to make a short story shorter.. I wasn't redneck enough to keep it on..the Peer presure got to me!...in that respect I like it down south, although the south is changing fast.
You don't have to rent a car when skiing Utah. You can stay in many parts of Salt Lake City and take the bus up to 4 of the ski areas. Also, there are still a few reasonable (and nice) places to stay located on the free Park City bus line. Of course, you can always shop around for an all-included package ski-week to Utah. Sometimes the package prices are very competitive. When compared to Utah, Snowshoe costs so much and gives you so little.
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How do the weekend crowds at tline and canaan compare with shoe?
Longer lift lines but less slope crowding thanks to slow lifts amd an inadequate lift to terrain ratio. Another big problem at Timberline on BIG days is lift slowdowns and breakdowns. Slowdowns are caused be people inexperienced with riding lifts and other factors (poorly designed loading zones, fixed gripped woes, and in the case of the Queen, a lift too small to carry three adult males). On a long weekend Saturday, it often takes 20 minutes to get to the top of the mountain versus 11 during the midweek. CV is Timberline's Silver Creek. I'd recommend not buying a three day ticket at T-line on a long weekend and instead skiing CV on Saturday and Tline on Sunday and Monday.
One other point in favor of Shoe off-peak: high-speeds. You can probably get three times the vertical midweek at Shoe vs. Timberline. That may be worth the extra $$$.
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^that is only correct for one person. the problem with that sort of cost analysis is the cost of buying 5 plane tickets plus renting a car (in my case) vs. driving one car to snowshoe or whereever - its huge, approx $1800 vs $150. nonetheless, we avoid weekends anywhere as much as possible.
Not sure I agree with that. The wife and I have done trips out west to both Whistler and Tahoe for much less than Snowshoe.
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^that is only correct for one person. the problem with that sort of cost analysis is the cost of buying 5 plane tickets plus renting a car (in my case) vs. driving one car to snowshoe or whereever - its huge, approx $1800 vs $150. nonetheless, we avoid weekends anywhere as much as possible.
Not sure I agree with that. The wife and I have done trips out west to both Whistler and Tahoe for much less than Snowshoe.
Is it just you and your wife, though? I think pagamony's point was that they have to buy 5 plane tickets for the whole family. Those plane tickets can really add up. I was recently pricing Southwest tickets from Baltimore to Denver this winter, and they're pretty cheap -- $99 each way. That makes it very economical for me to fly out to Colorado. But if it was a family of five, that's already above $1,000 for airfare with fees.
There's definitely a point where it becomes more expensive to fly, and that point arrives much quicker as you pile on the airplane tickets. For one or two people, you can probably put together cheaper or roughly comparable trips out west.
^I think two is the break even point. It doesn't scale. Of course, the longer you stay, the better the comparison.
I don't think everyone understands the logistics of traveling with 3 young kids (eg: 12,10,4). You don't just get up at 6 am, wolf down a bagel and hop on a bus for a 30 minute ride to the mountain. oh that life could be so simple. On no day are they all going to have the same stamina and on no day can any of them be left alone.
nonetheless, its been several years since we have seen the shoe and I don't really miss it. But I can understand why a family would go there - just not so many!
Most have made valid points. The best being, ski midweek! Monday through Friday anywhere in the east and you will have most of the mountain to yourself, especially t-line. The shoe sells more 3 and 4 day packages, especially around a holiday. It has been my experience over the last 20 + years that the best quality ski time of a weekend is on Sunday afternoon.
The lifts are runing fast, the snow is generally good, and everybody who was there on Saturday is heading home. I used to do the following at the shoe to avoid crowds and get the best conditions. Start on the basin side when the ropes drop. By 10:30-11 am be on the widowmaker lift and get a quick lunch around 12:30 to 1. Work your way to back to Cupp. In the afternoon, it's usually softer snow and bumped up. If it's too crowded, catch the shuttle to the creek and head for flying eagle. However, usually, once the bumps form on cupp, the scuds go away and you are usually left with people who are mostly under control. At t-line, ski early! The crowds don't get moving until 10 and you can get in some serious vert by then. I usually watch the lodge to determine when lunchtime is and the lift lines will be shorter. last season, t-line set a skier record and lines were usually 20 minutes at the triple and 15 min at the queen, unless you went into the singles line which was never longer than 5 min. There is a system to everything. You just have to discover it.
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I don't think everyone understands the logistics of traveling with 3 young kids (eg: 12,10,4).
Yea, I am part of that club too (ages 8 & 6). We use our United card as a means to pay for everything during the year (gas, grocery's etc.....). Everything! Just charge it during the month, keep track of it in on a balance sheet, then write one check to the credit card company at the end of the month before the interest kicks in. We reap the rewards of the frequent flyer miles, so I really haven't paid for an airline ticket for the last 5 years or so. but to your point, we have not taken the kids out west yet, so I will get a truer picture of the costs when I do.
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I don't think everyone understands the logistics of traveling with 3 young kids (eg: 12,10,4).
Yea, I am part of that club too (ages 8 & 6). We use our United card as a means to pay for everything during the year (gas, grocery's etc.....). Everything! Just charge it during the month, keep track of it in on a balance sheet, then write one check to the credit card company at the end of the month before the interest kicks in. We reap the rewards of the frequent flyer miles, so I really haven't paid for an airline ticket for the last 5 years or so. but to your point, we have not taken the kids out west yet, so I will get a truer picture of the costs when I do.
We do the same with our card and can fly for free every year.
At Steamboat kids can fly & ski for free with paying adults, might be deals like that at other resorts too.
The point is though that Snowshoe is not cheap (lifts, lodging etc) and IMO not a good value when length of drive, crowds and overall experience are factored in.
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Frankly I enjoy skiing with rednecks. I love listening to people whoop and holler while they flop around the ski slopes in their hunting outfits. It's something I used to see quite a bit at Canaan Valley and adds to the fun on the slopes. What would skiing in West Virginia be without rednecks?
I hope you're joking...
Yeah! I can remember night-skiing at places like Bryce and Massanutten when these Big Ol Redneck boys (complete with hunting outfits) would come flying down the slope (HOOTIN & HOLLERIN in out-of-control snow-plows) and clean-out the lift-line! One evening at Bryce (while waiting to get on the lift) this Big Ol Boy hit the shovel of one of my skis so hard that it bent and delaminated! Things like that tend to happen when you mix beginner skiing with alcohol and lots of size and strength.
