Hi Ullr,
Thank you for the warm welcome to the DCSki Website and Message Board.
Sincerely,
Tim
Blue Knob
"Ski Good or Eat Wood"

bktim,

A lot of things MM says about Blue Knob upsets me too. It is my favorite close mountain to DC. I welcome the alternative opinion to some of Skippy's comments.

One thing I resent is the idea of industry people reading this forum and then trying to punish forum members (like Canaanman or Mountain Masher for example) who post things they do not like. Canaanman was apparently banned from Timberline for some of his posts, and Tim is trying to ban Masher from Blue Knob. The reason people read the forum is to get unvarnished opinions of local ski areas. If people feel they cannot make a negative post, even if the it is THE TRUTH, then I think this forum, and by extension DCSki, will lose some of its effectiveness as an unbiased source of information on Mid-Atlantic skiing. This is the "chilling effect" I alluded to in an earlier post.

To me, it's fine and welcomed for people like Tim to get on the forum to clarify or correct inaccurate statements, but getting punitive is a whole other story. Most negative posts are not made maliciously, but to address a a real concern and get other people's feedback. Furthermore, if industry types want to silence any criticism on DCSki, people will just go elsewhere. It's better to have the criticism expressed here, where we have a lot of knowledgeable local skiers who can correct or clarify the issue than on some hard to find blog.

PS In the Canaanman case, the T-line ski patrol apparently banned him from the mountain for an unspecificd period for providing detailed instructions on how to access certain off-piste terrain (namely the Cherry Glades) at T-line--terrain btw that the Ski Patrollers poach all the time and terrain that many experts go to the resort to ski.

I don't know much about Blue Knob and the validity of MM's statements but I do know about the validity of the statement you just made John. You don't know what the hell your talking about. Canaanman was never banned from the mountain by anybody, however ski patrol did talk to his father maybe he couldn't ride for a weekend or two I don't know, maybe they pulled his pass until he wrote a letter explaining he understood the consequences of his actions-I'm not sure. But I'm sure I've seen him riding the mountain every season since the incident you are refering to.

Here is what else I'm sure of: Ski Patrol was not upset with him for letting out so called stash secrets. SKi Patrol was upset with him for participating in and promoting unruly and dangerous behavior. Canaanman claimed to be a bad ass by stating he jumped off the pump house and mocked ski patrol in the process-he reported/bragged about this. The pump house is forbidden fruit, not constructed to ride or ski on and is clearly marked off. Ironically the truth was it was his friend who infact jumped of the pump house and canaanman was taking the props. The embarressment alone for taking credit for someone else's actions was punishment enough alone if you ask me. He was a laughing stock- everytime his name was mentioned on the mountain people made jokes...still do...kinda like whenever anyone skis/rides OFF the Wall they smile laugh and say "Oh that is just to difficult for experts".

Of course it is irresponsible for anyone to promote dangerous and unruly behavior to the public on a forum or otherwise. Skiing is a dangerous sport and people get killed because they don't realize the danger. Hopefully JOhn you never will but if you worked on an incident at a ski resort, as I have, were a patient dies or is seriously injured for life maybe you would understand the danger of promoting reckless/dangerous/unruly behavior.

Canaan Man sorry to bring this up again, but I had to straighten this jibberish out. I enjoy seeing you and your friends respectively rippin' on the mountain. Besides you were a young man when this happened 16..17??? It is easy to not fully understand the consequences of your actions when your young. Besides the pump house looks like a fun hit, but it is closed for a reason. And you and I both know that I have shown you some sweet spots that most folks never find.

In my ten years of riding at timberline never once have I seen SKi Patrol kick anyone out of the Cherrybowl as long as they were good enough to be in there and were not a danger to themselves. Although I would never promote riding/skiing on closed terrain. It's closed for a reason.

John I know you do a lot of good reporting on this sight. But you should be ashamed of taking a shot at the Ski Patrol who work hard to make your skiing experience at timberline enjoyable and safe. SKi patrol is one of the few goups of People at that mountain who work to make your experience at TImberline a skiing one. This time you just don't know what your talkin about!

Tucker:

I have nothing against the Ski Patrol and have many friends who are patrollers. I believe in the their mission and have the utmost respect for what they do on the mountain.

Thanks for the clarification about the Canaanman story--it demonstrates my point perfectly: if someone makes an inaccurate statement, someone else will correct them. Many thanks. It's a basic reason why this forum is better than an anonymous blog.

However, my basic point, which you never fully clarified, is that the Ski Patrol took away Canaanman's boarding privileges (or told his father to do so) for an undetermined amount of time for something he said on the forum (his boastful, albeit sophmoric comments about the pump house). Similarly, Tim Lyons would like to ban Mountain Masher from BK for things he said on the forum. It's perfectly acceptable for the Ski Patrol or Mountain management to revoke a skier or a boarder's privileges for what people do on the mountain, but for what they say on the forum? That strikes me as censorship. We all know that the pump house is forbidden fruit and Canaanman brought that up as joke. It was not meant to be taken seriously. Again, there's a lot of humour and nuance on this forum that new posters like yourself don't seem to understand. People say things they do not mean to be humorous or ironic. What I resent are people like Tim who want to try and punish people for saying certain things on the forum. If you are patroller at Timberline and you intend to keep a book on what people say on the forum, I suggest that you let everyone on the list know your real identity and state your intentions.

I will say a few things about recent events but don't want to get too involved in the discussion.

As you all know, the DCSki Message Forums are intended as a place for the open exchange of ideas and information, including debates where candid opinions are presented and differences are resolved (or not). Numerous ski resorts read the forums (most of them silently) to get a feel for what visitors think about their resorts, good and bad, and they often use these opinions to make improvements.

Allowing the forums to remain a place of open discourse does require responsibility on the part of forum posters, however. I am always concerned about the accuracy of content on DCSki, and am concerned by situations where someone appears to be using DCSki to (aggressively) pursue their own agenda.

I get very concerned when accusations are made that cannot be independently verified (by me or anyone), especially when these accusations appear designed to damage the reputation of a person or entity. And personal attacks are always inappropriate. On rare occasions I have had to communicate privately with individuals to express concern. In some cases this has had a positive effect, in other cases my guidance was completely ignored and it did not appear possible to have a rational discussion.

I welcome Blue Knob's participation in the Forums because for a long time, Blue Knob has been discussed relentlessly by a small group of individual(s), and Blue Knob has not participated in the dialog to present their own viewpoint or defend accusations that were made.

At the same time, I will not allow DCSki to become a place of endless argument and debate over a specific resort or topic. Readers do not want to see that. (Well, some might, but I'm looking out for the silent majority!) At some point people have made their point and need to move on.

Everyone should understand that there is a delicate balance that must be achieved. The continued existence of the DCSki Message Forums is contingent upon readers posting responsibly.

Clarification:

The entire thing (the actions taken on the mountain) had nothing to do with this forum or sight John. Your kidding yourself if you think it did. It was the fact that Canaanman was involved with promoting the incident on the mountain. His friend was indeed the one that poached the Pump House, but Canaanman was involved in the situation. The entire report on the internet happened after all that occurred on the mountain. The only thing that was a result of the internet action was he made himself look juvenile. As does anyone who makes unqualified statements.

I have worked as a Ski Patroller in the past and have held several other on snow Industry Positions at resorts including Canaan, Snowshoe, and Timberline. I have often worked as an Instructor because I enjoy passing the passion I have for the sport along to others. I don't keep "books" as you call them and I'm definetily not employeed by any ski area right now. I'm not sure why you would accuse me of this???

But I don't agree with you...I think it's a good thing there are industry types on this forum to keep false statements in check, or to atleast respond to and or maybe answer questions. I also think it is useful for those industry Types to bring their practical knowledge to the converasation. But I do agree with you as well and don't think throwing threats around is vary constructive. I also don't think throwing accusations around is cool either.

As far as stating my intentions...I'm just here for the novelty and conversation on this sight...but when I read post that make false accusations against myself and friends (patrollers, employees, industry people, or whoever.) I'm not going to let them go unchallenged.

The one thing I noticed that maybe no one else caught in this whole discussion is what the original poster said about MM. Was that MM appearantly had very bad behavior with the resort in real life by filing 'frivelous lawsuits' against Blue Knob resulting in his banning (I'm assuming through a no trespassing order probably) from the resort. Both of which could be confirmed via documents at the county courthouse if anyone is able to take a peek at the public records.

That would indicate at least in my observations that the behavior MM displays on the forum here was happening in real life at the resort and I can only assume that when he got banned that he maybe was looking for an outlet to speak against them. Again, that is just me wondering because I don't know MM, never talked to him, or anything else. If he was banned from the resort due to bad behavior with them in real life, then none of us can say anything about that because the resort has that right to follow through with that. However if it's a result based on comments on this website, then that by far crosses a line because nothing can be truely validated on here. Not even if a poster is whom they say they are.

Anyway that is just my thinking on it all.

Brad

As long as they identify themselves, having ski area representatives post on these forums is IMHO a very good thing. Instead of speculating on why something was done or was not done, we can get the rationale directly from the horse's mouth (or other end as the case may be.) Back and forth dialog with ski area representatives is an effective way for us customers to provide feedback. They may not be able to act on all our suggestions, but understanding their constraints/reasoning certainly helps placate the unruly villagers with torches.

Free ribs dinner at Timbers for anyone who gets Doc and Fred(?) to post on these forums.

And a case of any PA beer to anyone who gets Blue Knob to make snow earlier on Extrovert and clean out some of the rocks and debris in their glades.

A couple of bottles of Dom Perignon to anyone who gets Laurel Mountain to open this winter.

Free ski lessons to anyone who suggests regular grooming of Off The Wall.

Free ski lessons to anyone who claims all the lines through the whales are skiable.

I wouldn't worry about the repercussions of posting on DCSki (yet.) Frankly, MM is probably as much a pain in the butt in real life as he is here. Secondly, CM deserved a slap on the wrist. Thirdly, it doesn't take the skill of Sherlock Holmes to find out how to enter CB or where some of the better lines are. Herz Mountain is not exactly the size of the Yukon territory.

Tucker:

Thanks for the clarification. It all makes sense. Your posts have been very good and we welcome more..

Let me clarify my position, industry types have always lurked on DCSki and Scott, myself, and others have occasionally fielded phone calls from them about inaccurate posts. We then try to sort through the facts and post some clarification.

What is new is for people like Tim, in particular, to openly identify themselves and contribute. I actually applaud such moves. The only thing that bothers me is when someone threatens punitive action for something said on a web forum. Tim apologized for the threat and I accept that apology. Perhaps it is good for everyone to know that the resorts are reading these posts--it helps people think before they write.

Additionally, it is preferable for an insider like Tucker to clarify an issue rather than having Scott or myself have to do it second hand based on phone or e-mail conversations with resort people. Does that make sense? I've been as guilty as anyone else in misconstruing facts. Hence, a horse's mouth approach works well by me...

One other clarification:

I had originally suggested that T-line groom out man-made snow on OTW and DROP and then allow bumps to grow naturally as they do at many VT slopes. I still believe in this approach. People who want artificial terrain features can ski terrain parks; I want natural moguls. What killed me is that T-line groomed those slopes the whole season and turned them from double black to blue squares. We need at least two bumped up slopes. Perhaps the answer is to allow White Lightening to bump up. I agree with Tucker that T-line was pretty boring last season. They need to work harder to create some challenge for advanced skiers.

John, Thank you for your response and clarification. Thank you as well for you continuous reporting on the mid-atlantic ski areas. Keep it coming!

I liked the artificial whales as many people did, but that is a matter of opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on a matter. I'd like to see terrain parks, bumps(green,blue and black), whales with bumps. The whales were becoming a trade mark and love or hate them they were creating a buzz and people were coming to timberline to ski them or just to check them out. They were the topic of conversation in the lift lines, in the bar, and even on the internet. They created excitement and were good for the resort in my opinion. That's just my opinion.



I know your jokin John L, but be careful with your offers---if you switch a few words around you could be in a serious beer importing situation....

If you said.... A free case of PA beer to anyone who can ski/ride any line on Off the Wall with whales.....on any given weekday of the season you'd have to rent a small box truck to bring down all the beer.....How much beer for riding anyline on Off the Wall w/ Whales riding switch(fakie)?

I guess there's always a chance, but you would have to ask management. That sounds great to me. I would even like to see some bumps on some blue and green terrain as well.

I would *LOVE* to see bumps on either Upper Dew Drop or Upper Almost Heaven. When I was at Wisp for the last two years, I love riding their one trail called Boulder Run which is half green/blue. Anyway after the snow gets soft or even after ungroomed powder, this trail will bump up because of the amount of traffic hitting a 180* U turn in it before it drops off a little bit. I was sorta surprised coming down it late one evening when there was bumps but... I rode out the bumps on this blue trail and LOVED IT!!

I would definately pay to go to Timberline more often if there was a blue trail with bumps. I'm still learning those good before progressing to blacks and black bumps.

This is one of the most bizarre threads I have ever seen. There is something about the internet that I think is often overlooked and is relatively important.

Nearly everyone is anonymous on the net. Over time we develop some degree of confidence in our observations, but that ignores the obvious truth that fraud happens all the time on the net. Thus, any discussions about lawsuits and personal behaviors and anything else related is largely inconsequential and should be ignored, imho.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Now, what's this site about? SKIING !

Save the whales. When I was at tline it was all rainy and the whales had gone away. I wanted to see them, I really did. Please bring them back and I will be good to them, I promise. I like nice soft evenly spaced bumps, but not tall steep icey bumps.

John, I would mostly agree, but that doesn't mean a single individual couldn't cause a lot of trouble. For me, I'd rather not be reading about lawsuits and who got banned from where.

But you give me a nice idea. We could make a skier social network map. You've skied with 11 other users. I've skied with two other users. How about I start a thread for peopld to post 'who have you skied with' and after a couple of weeks I'll create a network map - interested?

Whoah!!! I've seen hyjacks before but this one is real impressive. It's interesting how some of these discussions morph when emotional issues come to into play. I'll vote for whales and bumps where ever possible. There was a time when they made snow under the chairs and then let it bump up for some GREAT runs....Amos, you listening????

What I really enjoy about Snowshoe is the way they manage their terrain. If you want to play in the bumps you don't have to go over to Shay's and work your legs, you can cruise around the mountain and run into blue and green bumps as well. It's also great, and necessary, for learning bumps...because lets face it no one is going to have a good time learning to ride bumps on Shays or OTW. I also REALLY like the way Snowshoe leaves rollers and swails on the trails as they groom. You can find really gentle rolls all over the place, it's great! You can use them to pop off of or carve turns on. Snowshoe does a good job with encorporating variation in their terrain. I don't know... to me flat all the time just gets a boring real fast. I think a mountain without bumps is a mountain that is missing something. Terrain variation is where it's at and I think we will see more of it from the mountains who are on their game and listen to their customers.

Have to agree. A groomed out Tline was fun for a day, but after that it got kinda boring. Add in the slow lifts between lightning fast straightline runs and at the end of the day you can't think of a memorable ride. Last year we were taking kids up to our place and after a lesson and a few runs down Sally and Dew Drop they were straightlining OTW thinking they had mastered skiing. That is just not right! I vote for Whales on OTW, bumps on the Drop and T-struck (remember like 4 seasons ago when they let Thunderstruck bump too - that was great), snow in the woods, trees next to Silverstreak, and an open Cherry Bowl (plus someone to show me around in there).

Hey, last weekend it was 55 degrees Saturday AM in the Valley. Heading up this weekend - hoping to see the mercury drop into the 40's overnight. Snow will be here soon. Andy's probably already poached some lines off the top of MPC.

Tom