Car hunting, gas prices, & winter prepping
72 posts
22 users
30k+ views
bawalker
September 9, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
I'm still on the hunt for a great car to replace my ailing explorer that now seems to not make it beyond 30 miles before showing massive problems. With that said, I'm in the hunt mostly for a Subaru Outback Wagon to use not only for regular business work, but also because of how exceptional Subaru's are with AWD in snow. Two years now I've driven my mom's 95 Legacy L Subaru to Timberline in snowstorms without chains, without snowtires and never once slid or spun. I'm convinced.

Mainly what I'm looking for falls within the following specs: 2000-2004 Outback Wagon, 5 Speed Manual Trans, less than 40,000 miles, body in mint condition, and anything else like CD is just a bonus. The vehicle would be for my business and it has to be a Outback Wagon since that gives me the most cargo space for the best gas mileage. I am very very anal in that it has to be a 5 Speed. I love those, I love the power it gives me when driving and the extra gas mileage and can squeak out.

I've been looking in the eastern panhandle of WV, Northern Virginia down through Winchester, Harrisonburg, etc. and NO ONE has one. There are plenty of automatics available, but I'm sticking to 5 speed. Do any places down closer to DC remotely have anything like this? Any places that you all recommend in checking with?
comprex
September 9, 2005
Member since 04/11/2003
1,326 posts
Check Richmond area
JimK - DCSki Columnist
September 9, 2005
Member since 01/14/2004
2,668 posts
have you snooped around carmax db? I found one for 13k, 50k miles:
www.carmax.com
bawalker
September 9, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
Yeah I have checked carmax and actually have it along with several dealer sites and used car lot sites bookmarked that are located up this way. With that said, I would love to check the Richmond area and others down in Manasass, but I'm clueless as where to start, who to call, etc.
DCSki Sponsor: Massanutten Resort
jimmy
September 9, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
Brad, rumour has it you make car salesmen cry?
fishnski
September 9, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
You need to get a hold of crockodile Dundee!
jimmy
September 9, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
"nkow ats a nwoife" Somthing fishy here...you ever get that house you bin building done? Heard someting about the neighbors, county commisson and eminence domain?

What's cDundee have to do wbuying a car? .
bawalker
September 9, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
Quote:

Brad, rumour has it you make car salesmen cry?




I've been known to... 'negotiate' if I've found or felt a price was a tad too high.

bawalker
September 9, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
Jimmy - Actually the whole issue (of which emminent domain is a part of) regarding the WV soil conservation service along with NRCS trying to build a 30+ million dollar dam on our family's property for the sole sake of fishing/camping is under heavy fire. Very soon we will be in the midst of two federal lawsuits that go to the core of the US Federal Consitution and the protections it affords us as citizens and that the government can not violate the constition to do business.

Heads will roll on this one.
RyanC
September 9, 2005
Member since 11/28/2003
160 posts
carmax.com is the place! I bought a used Acura a few months back from Carmax. Saw it online and had it shipped from a store in NC to Baltimore. They stand behind everything they sell. I'm saying that as one of the most difficult to please, chronically dissatisfied customers of just about everything

Can't attest to snow performance...I usually look for deals (entertainment book RULES!) and rent a car when I go up to Canaan. Here's my logic...Baltimore to Canaan= 450 miles over 3-4 days. Mountain driving on not the best roads with crap (stones, bugs, etc.) flying at your car, etc. Makes sense for me to pay $70 to rent an aconomy car (try to request a corolla- very confortable and one tank of gas gets me to and around canaan and back) through enterprise or hertz rather than putting the wear and tear on mine-- want to make it last.

Am I the only one that does this, or does anyone else do the car rental thing?-- not to change the subject...
bawalker
September 10, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
Wow, and I thought chronic unabletopleasness was a disease only I had? Seriously though while I'm someone that will nit pick over things, I do realize that there is a level of reality involved in car hunting and car buying. Just within the past two weeks I found a 2003 silver Subaru Outback. 26,000 miles, 5 Speed Manual, factory warranty left, single owner, etc. I was ready to nab it until alot of hassles came up with me getting outside financing. I've yet to figure out how a small business owner with 750 credit score gets turned down for 3 auto loans. Anyway the asking price of that vehicle was $17,900, after a $3000 trade in value on my explore and haggling with them by saying "that the higher gas prices go, the less cars you'll sell so I'm in fact doing you a favor" speil, I was able to hit $12,900 on a basically brand new car.

Thats a guage I'm working to following. I'd like to find a similiar car in a similiar condition for the similiar price ratio. There'd be no sense in me going out and putting $20,000 on a nearly identical vehicle that has a tad more miles, no factory warranty or such. Maybe this is the businessman in me coming out, but I realize if I could reach that pinnacle once, then it's attainable, even if I have to wait a bit longer.

Actually this will be my car for recreational use as well as business use. Since I do home service calls for computer work for consumers, having a vehicle that gets me around reliably is a requirement.
Taylormatt
September 10, 2005
Member since 12/3/2004
339 posts
Do yourself a huge favor and go test drive a 5 speed AWD Honda Element before you decide to purchase a used suby. Drive it before you make any decisions about how ugly it is. Trust me.
johnfmh - DCSki Columnist
September 10, 2005
Member since 07/18/2001
1,916 posts
Quote:

Am I the only one that does this, or does anyone else do the car rental thing?-- not to change the subject...




I'm a big proponent of snow tires and rentals don't generally come with snow tires--even in very cold regions. Why? Too expensive. It's easy to spend over $400 for snows but they are worth their weight in gold if you value life and limb.
fishnski
September 10, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
Dundee did a million suburu OUTBACK commercials!! My house is in the wrap up faze...thankyou...awesome views of Mount Porte crayon & the backside of wiess Knob(canaan ski area)...I will burn the place to the ground though if "Almost Heaven" is not built.Havn't heard anything positive on that front.Talkin to some contracters working on the house,they informed me that Mr. Teter(owner of top of mtn that "almost heaven" might be built on) was "pissed off" at the people trying to buy his land....That pisses me off!!Johnf any news??
bawalker
September 10, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
I hate to say it, I wouldn't care of the Element was as safe as a tank, got 80mpg, and ran 500,000 miles before needing an oil change with a price tage of $10,000, that thing as well as the Scion xb are so butt ugly I will never be caught dead in one. Sorry, but the Subaru quality AWD has me convinced that I swear by them.

Quote:

Do yourself a huge favor and go test drive a 5 speed AWD Honda Element before you decide to purchase a used suby. Drive it before you make any decisions about how ugly it is. Trust me.


bawalker
September 10, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
I would almost have to argue with you fishnski, being that me and my family are in a position of possibly loosing our land to others who have purely financial interests at heart, I can totally understand Mr. Teter's position if he doesn't want to sell. Would that leave alot of us upset that we wouldn't have an Almost Heaven resort to play at? Of course!

But the flip side, and the most important side is that the land currently belongs to Mr. Teter and no one has the right to take that property away from him as long as he wishes to hold onto it. Obviously that all goes back to the latest eminent domain court ruling that says private businesses can confiscate/condem land for private business use. That may seem like the best thing to do for those of us who want a winter wonderland playground right there and now, but that obviously is the immoral and corrupt option. If Mr. Teter wishes to keep that land and sign it over in his will to relatives for farm usage, that is his God given right as an American citizen, and the rest of us will have to move on to Moonshine Mtn.

Sorry but American citizen rights outtrump a 2000' vert drop in the mid-atlantic.
RyanC
September 11, 2005
Member since 11/28/2003
160 posts
Interestingly, and sadly, getting an auto loan (even with a great credit score- which shows you're probably pretty good managing you $$) being self-enployed is very difficult. In fact, someone with tons of debt and/or someone that had a bankruptcy 6 mos. ago would find it easier. It sucks, I know. If you have any family members that work for a state or federal government agency, you could probably join a credit union and get one at a low rate. I LOVE my credit union, and prefer it to any for-profit, large bank. If that's not an option, try Capital One Auto Finance (www.capitalone.com). Since you're a local business owner, what about one of the local banks in the Potomac Highlands or Canaan area (ie. Miners & Merchants in Thomas, Grant County Bank, Citizens in Elkins, etc.)??

With regards to the land issue, I agree with you 100% on taking land for any purpose other then for public safety, etc. (or what eminent domain was originally intended for). It's definitely been abused, in urban and rural areas alike. But, the debater in me would like to play devil's advocate for a minute, bear with me and please don't hate me for it -here it goes- Can you really call it 'taking' your land if the gov. is paying you hundreds of thousands or millions for it? Many rural families have much more money than even the affluent city-slickers among us, simply due to owning tons of land. I don't know your family's situation, but I would be hard-pressed to feel sorry for any rural landowner that's getting let's say a million dollars from the gov't for their land. If you're good with that million and invested right, you'd never have to work another day in your life!!

When it comes to eminent domain and the like, the rural red state landowners tend to make out like bandits in these situations-- again, I don't know your situation at all really (in fact I would be interested to hear more details), but lets say Joe Hog Farmer in some rural area of WV where the nearest town was 20 miles away and the town's biggest attraction is WAL-FART (yes, I said WAL-FART on purpose ). This fictional family owns 200 acres in an area that is really not marketabe for any development because there is no real SUSTAINABLE employment base within a reasonable commuting distance (WAL-MART does not count as sustainable 'living wage' employment in even the lowest-cost areas). If the government 'takes' the land of this family and pays them a cool million for it, they will be better off for the rest of their life than they would have been otherwise, short of winning the lottery. This family that owned for all intensive purposes non-marketable land in the middle of nowhere would be better off than the mere 'affluent' MD/DC/VA folks that visit and own resort property in WV, for example. I would doubt that most home/condo owners at Snowshoe, Deep Creek, Canaan Valley have a net worth of $1 million + (unless they have lived in McLean for 20+ years and have seen mad appreciation on their primary residence). Perhaps half a million is common, but not a million. Of course I'm saying this as a Baltimore-area resident where our RE prices are high, but not nearly as high as DC's.
bawalker
September 11, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
Amazingly enough CapitolOne Auto Finance was one of the places that denied a loan. One of their reasons in their reply letter was that I didn't have enough 'revolving' accounts. After some hard pressing on their end and demanding to speak with managers and anyone higher up the food chain, I realized that their vauge responses lead me to assume that their definition of 'revolving' accounts was deemed for home loans and prior auto loans. Not credit card and or simple bank accounts like all of my previous financial account classes has taught me for the definition of revolving. Go figure though.

A credit union is one outlet I am definately looking at and being that I am a business owner I'm actually going to be trying this week to see if I can use that status and get joined up with a credit union for my employee's (aka myself). One of the credit unions in Winchester offers as low as 2% on simple interest auto loans. Any thoughts on being a business owner and approaching a credit union would be appreciated.

When playing devils advocate (which I've done pertaining to my families situation many times), it all comes back to if the orginial people are simply happy where they are. In my family's case, we have 40+ acres of prime farmland that has only 3 immediate properties adjoining ours with the rest of it being bordered by national forrest. The nearest structure to the immediate structure on our property is over a football field away shrowded by tree's for the utmost privacy. Included is a private stream (what the gov wants to dam up for a fishing lake), natural wetland areas, and the nearest 2 lane paved road over a mile away. A setting for the perfect life.

Now, at best research in our case that we have learned from others experience of dealing with our local gov. damming up streams and evicting people, is that they bend the laws so they legally pay the least amount possible for the acreage. In our case thats roughly $2000 acre. Thats less than $80,000. Now, playing devils advocate myself, for our family to go out, find 40 acres of land, two homes already established with only 3 neighboring properties adjoining it with a stream and national forrest already bordering the majority of the property, I think it's gonna take alot more than $80,000. In fact for us to get the equivelant of what we have... we'd have to evict others out of their homes, take their land and probably require at least $18+ million dollars from the government to get that. All of that on top of the government wanting to spend $34 million dollars for a dam in a community of 2200 people. Even playing devils advocate, it doesn't make sense. Goto www.savelostriver.org to really read up on our situation.

But getting back on topic, what if the folks who live where they do such as Mr. Teter or Joe Blow, which happens to be in a below income county with double digit unemployement rates are happy with where they live? Does them living in a 'poverty' classified area make them automatically needing or wanting better financial status? In most cases that is a resounding yes because most people have a price. There are others however, and God Bless WV for having lots of them, who actually enjoy the benefits of what is nationally defined as poverty. Peace and quiet lives, learning to make due and handle that 3' snowstorm in the valley when all the DC yuppies cry because they are missing a spa appointment in Arlington. Theres alot to be said for the life skills learned through 'poverty'. As long as a person is happy where they are, no financial price can buy them and be it the gov or private industry definately doesn't have a right to try and buy them.

I guess when people look at it that way... it actually makes the poor and the rich reach the same status quo level, that we all really are equal with equal rights.
fishnski
September 11, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
Taking land from anyone just to develope more of the same stuff that is allready out there is wrong..Period. Towns & city's across the nation have been losing thier identity with the same stores ect.." I can leave my town & go a hundred miles to another town & they look alike with the same looking wallmart,lowes ect....But Mr. Teter does not live on that Mtn & will not be losing his home.That land would support 1 farmer(citizen) & a herd of sheep.Meanwhile there are hundreds of thousounds of CITIZENS that would love to be able to enjoy a 1st class resort in thier own back yard!I live behind a beautiful 9 mile long undeveloped island here in the carolinas.Only the few that own boats are lucky enough to enjoy the place.I would give up MY HOME so the state could build a road & bridge to the island..not to develope commercialy but to give acsess to the CITIZENS In the form of a state park.I'm for giving people better lives.Why should 1 commercial netter catch all the flounder in the sounds when say a poor family that lives in Hickory,nc saves all thier money up over the year for a vacation at the beach,and then cannot catch any fish?There are thousands of these family's. The whole experience would be enhanced so much with a few friggin fish!Quit bieng greedy...ENHANCE the experience in West Virginia for the citizens!!
jimmy
September 11, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
Brad, Good idea to check out credit unions. Several up here are pretty much full service banks, used to be you had to work for a company or be related to someone who did. I think they scrapped those rules a few years back. Not only a good place to borrow, a well run credit union usually pays a higher rate than a bank on savings.

Andy, I thought Teter had already sold the property, let's hope bright gets busy cause i'm looking forward to driving past ur new digs to get to heaven (almost). Looks like you're in ophelia's crosshairs down there in NC?
RyanC
September 11, 2005
Member since 11/28/2003
160 posts
I don't blame you for fighting this tooth and nail. I will say that this project doesn't seem to warrant eminent domain by any stretch. Here in Baltimore County we've had similar 'land grab' issues, with the county wanting to seriously lowball waterfront homeowners (many who are retired steelworkers whose families have owned the homes for 50 years) in the name of economic development. Basically, robin hood in reverse... take property from the merely upper-middle class and redistribute it (at a bargain price) to very wealthy local developers.

It may be too late now but one credit history strategy to try is carry a small balance on a credit card from month to month (say balance $600, pay $200, carry over $400). This will help build a revolving credit history for future car loan and mortgage purposes, small business loan, etc. This is a great strategy for people like me who are allergic to debt but want just enough of a revolving history to qualify for the lowest rates.

You do make a point about quality of life, though. I've estimated (given the fact that I only paid $45k for my condo in Canaan) that I could live alone just as comfortable year-round in the valley on $30-35k per year as someone making $90-100k in Balt/Wash. One reason being is there is less to spend $$ on, and the main one being you couldn't own or even rent anything in Balt/Wash for less than $1k/month (and that's for a small studio apt.). But...the dilemna is that $100k/year jobs are more plentiful in Balt/Wash than $30k/year jobs are within an hour's commute to Canaan

If only I could live there and telecommute to my current job...
bawalker
September 11, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
Quote:

...But Mr. Teter does not live on that Mtn & will not be losing his home.That land would support 1 farmer(citizen) & a herd of sheep.




House or no house, thats still his property and he's obviously still entitled to the full rights of usage to it. Unfortunately there may be a very real eye opening experience that that we as snow lovers may have to face. That Mr. Teter may continue to exert his desire to retain the land for his own private purposes for as long as he see's fit not allowing Mr. Bright to build a resort there. The more we accept that as a possible outcome, I think would make the enjoyment of the resort much more enjoyable if it happens to get built.

Back to car buying... I do have 4 credit card accounts and some carry generic $1000 business expenses that get $500 paid towards them per month etc. Just small operating expenses for the most part. Total credit limit wise, I have $22,000 at my disposal with VISA and MC constantly raising it every 6 months. Go figure.
SeaRide
September 12, 2005
Member since 03/11/2004
237 posts
BAWalker
Since you say the credit report show that there's not enough revolving accounts, it sounds like the credit report needs to be updated to where it should show that you have many revolving accounts and so forth. Credit score 750 sounds good if the highest score is 800 instead of 1050. It depends on which CRC is being used to check on. There are over 7 CRCs (credit report companies) out there that I am aware of. Most CRCs do not have the credit score system set up the same way.

If I were you, I would call the credit report companies (at least the top three popular CRCs) to have your credit history updated.


Each of the nationwide consumer reporting companies - Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion - is required to provide you with a free copy of your credit report once every 12 months, if you ask for it.
For more info - click here

Hope you will get the loan approved asap and the EXACT Outback car.
Roger Z
September 12, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
Darn... I missed one of my favorite subjects outside of skiing. Land grabbin'. Frankly, that's the whole reason I'm becoming a planner, so I can appropriate properties I like for my own "economic development." (that was a joke, by the way)

I think overall RyanC has the right idea- what eminent domain is used for is getting increasingly divorced from what it was intended to be used for. In rural areas, short of building a highway, other linear projects (such as utilities), or a dam for public use, there is NO justification for eminent domain. Unfortunately, that's the circumstance Brad is caught in- is the dam on Lost River a legitimate public use or not? It doesn't sound like it is, but I'm not out there so I can't say with any certainty.

However, taking someone's family farm for developing a multi-million dollar resort would be totalitarian. On similar grounds, Andy, we could take your house at the base of the mountain so that the lift access was more convenient for Almost Heaven. You wouldn't want to stand in the way of progress, would you?
DCSki Sponsor: Massanutten Resort
gatkinso
September 12, 2005
Member since 01/25/2002
316 posts
It is great to hear that you would give up your home and land for others to enjoy.

That is your right.

Just as it is Teter's right to do what he pleases with his land.
Kris
September 12, 2005
Member since 03/15/2005
248 posts
just a tip for car buying...I was looking at a 2000 tacoma, extended cab, 5-speed, trd package, sr5 package, hard tonau (spelling??) cover, bed liner, chrome brush guard, 31-10.50's, fully loaded with 30,104 miles on it...Dealership wanted a little under 19,000 for it...

At the time i was installing security systems...I decided to go in with my work uniform on one day about 10 am and look at it, and the first thing the salesman said was "Like that truck? Sticker price doesent mean anything since your buying it for a company..." so i ran with it...lol...talked him down to 14,000 even for it taxes and all...then i said my boss didnt want that truck but i was interested in it for myself, and i wanted to know if the 14,000 price still would stand...you should have seen the look on his face...he studdered a bit and said i guess, since i already quoted ya...

long story short...i got a heck of a deal on a very very nice truck...told a few of my buddies what happened, so they tried it a few other dealerships...they talked them down some...but not as much as what i did...I think one guy got a brand new F250 for 4 grand below sticker price...and another guy saved about 3 grand...but still yet...a penny saved is a penny earned...I know 4 grand isnst much when your spending 30 some anyways...but in my case 19 grand compared to 14...BIG savings...
bawalker
September 12, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
Quote:

BAWalker
Since you say the credit report show that there's not enough revolving accounts, it sounds like the credit report needs to be updated to where it should show that you have many revolving accounts and so forth. Credit score 750 sounds good if the highest score is 800 instead of 1050. It depends on which CRC is being used to check on. There are over 7 CRCs (credit report companies) out there that I am aware of. Most CRCs do not have the credit score system set up the same way.




Actually my credit report shows 5 revolving credit card accounts all in good standing, all at 30% or less capacity and all paid in time. The letter I got from CapitolOne said I didn't have enough, which I think is bull. Considering 850 is the highest anyone can get on the FICO score chart I'm in pretty good standing. I have gotten my credit reports and scoured them top to bottom and they are in pristine condition. Since 680 is normally the cut off for prime/subprime lending I'm well above that to get the lowest of the low APR. Go figure.

Roger - The gov has yet to prove public need with this project. What they have done is changed the reasoning twice already. First they tried to state that it was for flood protection for 400 people downstream to baker. Guess what? We proved them wrong by showing only 6 houses are in the flood zone from there to Baker. So they changed it to watersupply source for the Lost River area (along with 4 other dams). Now we've proved that population growth estimates from the US Census shows growth of less than 1000 people in the next 10 years. Now they are dabbling around the recreational idea purpose for the dam. With a cost ratio of 0.6:1 being the best cost ratio they can achieve with building it, they are sinking in mire faster than they can imagine.

Oh, btw - did I tell you that the group behind it (WV Soil Conservation Service) has violated the federal constitution with their own election laws? I.E. a neighbor that owns 1 acre of land is not allowed to even vote against the local representatives on the WV Soil Conservation District because the soil conservation district's by laws state that in order to legally vote you must own more than 3 acres of land?
SeaRide
September 12, 2005
Member since 03/11/2004
237 posts
Quote:


Actually my credit report shows 5 revolving credit card accounts all in good standing, all at 30% or less capacity and all paid in time. The letter I got from CapitolOne said I didn't have enough, which I think is bull. Considering 850 is the highest anyone can get on the FICO score chart I'm in pretty good standing. I have gotten my credit reports and scoured them top to bottom and they are in pristine condition. Since 680 is normally the cut off for prime/subprime lending I'm well above that to get the lowest of the low APR. Go figure.






Without coffee this morning I apologize for not being clear. Alright as long as you understand that 850 is not really the highest score on the FICO score chart out there.

I agree with you that there's something not right somewhere with the prime lenders. Once you find a way to get the loan approved, let me know what was the problem with the whole thing, trivial or not. Only if you don't mind sharing your experience with us when it comes to buying a car for ski trips.
jimmy
September 12, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
Quote:

Only if you don't mind sharing your experience with us when it comes to buying a car for ski trips.




Searide, Just bought a new Ford Freestyle AWD, need to get some snowtires and I'm ready for ski trips . Don't have 1000 miles on it yet, looks like 20mpg city, maybe close to 30 highway. More room inside than wife's Explorer, looking forward to getting it in the snow.

As active as the forum has been today, ski season can't be far off!!
fishnski
September 12, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
Roger,I guess you didn't read my earlier post stating i had no problem giving up my house(for a fair Mkt price) here in the carolinas so as to build a road & bridge to an undeveloped Island so the boatless people in this world can enjoy what i have.I'm just talkin about building a state park not ruining the place.It's called public acsess! Why should the rich be so priviledged to hoard everything for themselves?I'd gladly give up my place in west virginia for a slopeside lot! This sacred, old school mentality a lot of you have is holding up progress & the pleasure of millions....just so one guy can have the pleasure of staring at an incredibly frosty mountain.Is that mountain his god given right? Maybe i need to know a little of the history behind how he got this mtn.Maybe if he worked half as hard for his land as i have for my place ,then i might have a little understanding. sorry Baywalker for intruding on your thread.
SeaRide
September 13, 2005
Member since 03/11/2004
237 posts
Quote:



Searide, Just bought a new Ford Freestyle AWD, need to get some snowtires and I'm ready for ski trips . Don't have 1000 miles on it yet, looks like 20mpg city, maybe close to 30 highway. More room inside than wife's Explorer, looking forward to getting it in the snow.

As active as the forum has been today, ski season can't be far off!!




Is it true that there is over 6 inches of clearance under the Ford Freestyle?
I read somewhere that the Freestyle is 10 inch longer and 2 inch wider than Explorer but smaller than Expedition. I will have to test drive it myself someday because I like the look of the Five Hundred but I heard that the Freestyle is just a wagon version of the Five Hundred.
So did you get the SEL or the SE?
Roger Z
September 13, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
Andy- most farmers are not rich. According to the 2002 farm census for Virginia (not West Virginia), the average income for a farmer the previous year was $10,000. Only one in three farms earned a profit. Of those that earned a profit, the average income was about $37,000. My grandfather who grew up on a farm in South Dakota says you can expect about one out of every five years to be profitable, with that year compensating for the losses in the other four.

Your presumption that Teter and his family- farmer's for Pete's sake!- haven't worked half as hard for their land as you have for yours is simply breathtaking. Yeah, that's the problem with farmers- they're so damn lazy. They've got nothing on us city desk jockeys when it comes to a work ethic.

Point number two: your idea of progress may have absolutely nothing to do with someone else's idea of progress. For instance, a lot of environmentalists want to see nothing anywhere near MPC- that's their idea of progress. The great thing about property ownership is that it gives you the right to immunity from other people imposing their ideal vision on you, when the outcome could potentially be far less than your ideal.

Is it really old fashioned to think that because you own your own land you can do what you want with it, within reasonable bounds? Are you seriously implying that ownership is conditional on someone else's idea of what they would do with your property? That notion kind of went out the door in 1989- it lost. Brad is "holding up progress" in Wardensville- and bravo for him in doing so.

And let's add one final point. However marginally profitable farming might be, skiing is even less so. The only money Bill Bright will make is off a real estate venture. By your logic, local governments should acquire farms to convert them into subdivisions in order to spur "economic progress."
jimmy
September 13, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
SeaRide, SE for me. Ground clearance looks like 6" could be right. I don't think it's any wider than an explorer, 113" wheelbase, could be longer outside, definitly longer inside. I was impressed with the way it handles, better than the Taurus i traded, WAAAAY better than an SUV. U can only get the AWD w/CVT, this one has traction control. I'll let us know aobut my impressions driving in SNOW!
fishnski
September 13, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
Roger,come on buddy give me a break!1st of all i allready apologized to brad for intruding on his thread.Now that i am having a hurricane party down here in the carolinas i am losing my judgement so i will respond.I never implied that mr. Teter did not work hard for that land i simply stated that i wish i new the facts & that if i found out that he actually put some blood sweat & tears into the prop I could understand his reluctance in selling.Do you think we should protect someone from eminent domain if this person has been corrupt or has made thier money off the backs of people thru near slave labor? + there is no farm up there or is there a home!!! It just sits there ....& you or me cannot even set foot on the place.Hikers cannot even get thru there because of the thick vegitation.Like i said we do not know the facts.It might be that bright might be trying to rip him off..we just don't know. I know that i would be too embarrased to show my face in a pub in the valley frequented by skiers knowing that I had turned down a great price on my land so as to complete the creation of a great envirementily friendly ski area to be enjoyed by millions so i can enjoy my place.Just little ole me with all that power....Its my place screw all you all! I got hunting to do.Me & my 3 buddies love to shoot those easily shot dumb a....s deer in my back yard & its our god given right to do so! you all just take all your jobs & money & send them to NE or out west.I got my place & the hell with all you all!........PS I have heard that the teter family owns half the land in that part of west va...don't give me this poor mouth BS If they were poor farmers THEY WOULD HAVE SOLD ALLREADY!! & another + while i got you...I got more WILDLIFE in my back yard than are habitating the WILD & wonderful west va highlands.Its just a tame place that nobody wants to restore to its origanal WILDNESS....so build the ski resort!
fishnski
September 13, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
PS again,I guess i have to continue repeating myself over the years......I am anti growth!! Read my posts.I'm sick of the same ole towns with thier wallmarts & super 8"s Ect...Filling every nook & crany & having to bring half of Mexico over to do it! I just see that every other ski state has developed thier best mountain & want to see West Virginia see thier full potential...is that so bad???
POWPOW
September 14, 2005
Member since 05/10/2005
124 posts
MAN!! you guys are WAY to serious. I just started reading this thread and was excited to read about some new spotlights for " car hunting " or something along those lines and all i find is more infighting.

You guys need to do some winter prepping by hitting some of this and do some of your cloud skiing stuff or something.
jimmy
September 14, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
HEEEEEE! POWPOW ur one scary dude. Where'd u find the picture of the WV "sacred cow"? That one has a rack only Crush could love..............and another thing that scares me is where'd you find the picture of my cuzin rob .....and what are u doing cloud skiing in my front yard without me?
Roger Z
September 14, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
I think this post is a perfect example of why folks who are from West Virginia find it so hard to like the "come heres." "Lazy crackers must sell their land for my enjoyment." This is inspiring me to go watch Pumpkinhead again...
fishnski
September 14, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
Ophelia is kicking A....S...What do you call a yankee that has just moved south & has been there a month?....BOSS...Times are changing Mr. Z, Good or bad we cannot stop this growth thing.You cannot just hunt & fish & collect a welfare ck anymore!Sorry I am not as politically correct as most of you folks.Where are all the indan lovers out there?Bieng an Indian lover myself I do feel pain for thier lost way of life....although i do remember reading about an Indian family who owned mount porte crayon at one time & they used to love to slide down that Mtn using greased deerskins...but always wished that there was a better way to get back up the Mountain! BRING ON ALMOST HEAVEN!! say it GAT !
pwillysim
September 15, 2005
Member since 09/2/2004
38 posts
Quote:

Jimmy - Actually the whole issue (of which emminent domain is a part of) regarding the WV soil conservation service along with NRCS trying to build a 30+ million dollar dam on our family's property for the sole sake of fishing/camping is under heavy fire. Very soon we will be in the midst of two federal lawsuits that go to the core of the US Federal Consitution and the protections it affords us as citizens and that the government can not violate the constition to do business.

Heads will roll on this one.





Bawalker,
This whole eminent domain thing is a crock of B.S. They are trying to steal our freedoms away a little at a time. Good luck to you and your family in this stand. There are a lot of us standing with you.
vtskifreak
September 16, 2005
Member since 07/20/2005
8 posts
Maybe growing up in New England we have a different idea of government but i find folks in the south are obsessed with property and all that jazz. What about the indians from whom we stole their property? Comon, the dam is gonna happen.

There's the community too. If a project benefits the community at large, it is more than an individual land owner and his issue.

Maybe one of the reason why the south is still poor is the paranoia about property rights

Yo fishnki, you ROCK man!

Build the dam and MPC too
Roger Z
September 16, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
Quote:

Maybe one of the reason why the south is still poor is the paranoia about property rights





You mean as opposed to all those thriving metropolises up north like Detroit, Buffalo, and Cleveland? Like those lavishly extravagant rural communities like the Mohawk Valley, upstate Maine, and central Massachusetts? Oh yeah, the north is just a bastion of rich folks cavorting around in their estates.

I'll say this about northerners, they are covetous little bastards. They see someone else's property, they like it- they take it. Then they cry about what happened to the Indians even though they're still doing the same thing to their fellow countrymen.

Yeah, property rights are the reason everyone is poor. If West Virginia had been able to control its property 100 years ago, y'all northerners wouldn't have been able to rape it and expropriate it's wealth. Now you want to do it again and you can't understand why it gets under their skin. Take a hike buddy- you can even do that on MPC right now.
Heather
September 16, 2005
Member since 02/24/2005
170 posts
I guess maybe paranoia has got the best of me! Which is why I feel the need to respond! After WORKING towards a goal of property ownership, I cannot understand the logic (or lack there of)surrounding eminent domain. Should all property OWNERS now worry that their property be taken, because now a precedent has been set. And who defines property as land, what if property by definition becomes objects owned by an individual (ie.cars, clothes, furniture, etc). Who is to stop the government/group from taking EVERYTHING we as hard working people have attained. Brad, You keep fighting the good fight!
bawalker
September 16, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
I'm curious as to why more people aren't paranoid about property rights than there is (thanks for the well wishes heather). The last time I checked America wasn't a communial country where what is mine is yours, and what is yours is mine. Instead I believe the last time I checked each person/family was entitled to what they have legally purchased and legally entitled to use that property as they see fit. If their using it is nothing more than living on it and leaving the property undeveloped, unused, and entirely for the genuine wild beauty only found on it, then I say that is their right and I or no one else has any right to try and suggest otherwise.

Although with the supreme court ruling on eminent domain that favors private developers, it's like we are becoming more and more of a 'communial communitity'. In such that if I was a billionare developer and I wanted to put a gas station on Heathers property, more than likely my weathly legal power could win out. All in the perverted name of adding more jobs and increasing the tax base in the area. That really is an overreach beyond comphrension of 'public use'.

I guess those in here who find my families situation of us trying to save 5 homes on 8 properties to be trivial, then they are entitled to their opinion. Thankfully we still own it and it's entirely upto us to decide what to do. Also for those here who wish to whine and complain about those of us who do like development moderation, I guess they slightly forget that in my case, illegally acting government officials are breaking their own policies and laws including the federal constitution (very much documented) to push this dam through. I guess that would be a bit ironic if they start trying to use the eminent domain law on us only after already violating every other law in the book to get it. Whether this is the right place to say this or not, oh well. But if anyone does see our situation as being one that is wrong and illegal, feel free to goto this page: http://www.savelostriver.org/donate.php or contact me privately on here.
vtskifreak
September 16, 2005
Member since 07/20/2005
8 posts
Quote:

You mean as opposed to all those thriving metropolises up north like Detroit, Buffalo, and Cleveland? Like those lavishly extravagant rural communities like the Mohawk Valley, upstate Maine, and central Massachusetts? Oh yeah, the north is just a bastion of rich folks cavorting around in their estates.

I'll say this about northerners, they are covetous little bastards. They see someone else's property, they like it- they take it. Then they cry about what happened to the Indians even though they're still doing the same thing to their fellow countrymen.

Yeah, property rights are the reason everyone is poor. If West Virginia had been able to control its property 100 years ago, y'all northerners wouldn't have been able to rape it and expropriate it's wealth. Now you want to do it again and you can't understand why it gets under their skin. Take a hike buddy- you can even do that on MPC right now.




Yo, that's a mouthful man. Your true sothern colors are showing. What next? A confederate flag or a cross-burning?

Dude, we have ghettoes up north but look at numbers. You guys are at the bottom of the barrel in everything from income to kids out of wedlock. Wanna compare per capita between WV and CT? I dare you.

and we're covetous little bastards and we see someone else's property, they like it- they take it. Wow dude you're still fighting a war you guys lost long time ago. And about taking property, you guys should talk! Remember your folks fought and lost for the right of a human being to own another. That's disgusting.
jimmy
September 16, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
Quote:

Although with the supreme court ruling on eminent domain that favors private developers, it's like we are becoming more and more of a 'communial communitity'. In such that if I was a billionare developer and I wanted to put a gas station on Heathers property, more than likely my weathly legal power could win out. All in the perverted name of adding more jobs and increasing the tax base in the area. That really is an overreach beyond comphrension of 'public use'.





There's nothing wrong with the power of eminent domain.......when it's used to acquire property to build a road, a new school or sewage plant or other PUBLIC USE. If the taker & owner can't agree on a price, at least in WVA, it goes to circuit court and a jury decides what the property's value is. The problem I have with the ruling is how they've redefined "public use/benefit". I'd guess that mr. teter, if he hasn't sold his property yet, hasn't received the right offer on the land, it's up to him to decide what it's worth and up to mr. bright to decide if he wants to pay that price.

Brad, keep on fighting, save lost river.

Andy, How'd your Hurricane Party turn out. Is everthing allright down there?

Good omen on the way to work this morning i followed a car with UTAH plates, headin west.
Roger Z
September 16, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
Hey, all I can say is, where are you living right now? Oh look, VIRGINIA. Property rights were good enough to get you a job.

And, incidentally, almost every indicator of racism and segregation is stronger up north than down south. Indicators of economic growth are the dead opposite. Unlike the north, the south has moved on and is getting ahead, while y'all keep sucking your thumbs and engaging in the most egregious stereotypes and bellyaching about who won a damn war 140 years ago. You really need to study up before you start writing, because it's obvious from your last two posts you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about.
vtskifreak
September 16, 2005
Member since 07/20/2005
8 posts
Yes, I'm living in Alexandria where if it wasn't for eminent domain and the ability of the city to take property for community development, we'd be an economic hellhole like the western part of VA where you are. And if it wasn't for NoVA and what we pay in income taxes, you guys wouldn't have clean water, schools or roads. Since I got here last year, it has been evident that the western part of the state is like a big leach on the rest of us. Case closed.

As for sucking our thumbs, you go back to your shack and let's talk when your rate of insurance for children approaches Vermont, or when every one of your old people in their community have food on the table. They do in my state. Talk about bellyaching man, you're not only uninformed, youre really cruel
Roger Z
September 16, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
Two points I forgot to mention that show how uninformed you are: Point one. Maybe you missed this lesson in history class, but West Virginia is the portion of Virginia that stayed IN THE NORTH. Western Virginia, North Carolina mountains were fervently union. So all your rips on WV, western VA, and other parts of these mountains are rips on people who fought with you. With friends like you...

Point two: show me a single text book, case study, or anything else that shows that property rights contribute to economic decline. If you think that's the case, you need to contact the US PTO, the pharmaceuticals, etc. and let them know that they really shouldn't give a rip about property rights.

Point three, since you brought it up in your latest post: if you think redistribution in VA is a bad deal, the last thing you should be doing is pointing with any pride to VT at all. Do you think health insurance grows on trees up there? Or maybe what you're saying is you don't mind when northerners redistribute wealth, but southerners should never do it. The interior of upstate New York, eastern VT and other areas of the rural north are just as much of an "economic hellhole" as you think we are, and since you haven't solved that problem with all your eminent domain brilliance it might behoove you to mind your own damn business until you do.

And coming from someone that banters about cross-burnings, economic hellholes, living in shacks, etc. your sudden self-pity party about other people being unusually cruel is laughably hypocritical and pathetic. If you don't want people to be "cruel," show a little respect and intelligence before you go mouthing off.
vtskifreak
September 16, 2005
Member since 07/20/2005
8 posts
Your first point is interesting other than after the civil war, it was your southern companies that deforested WV, took their coal and drove the people into poverty.

And still you have not, better yet, you cannot refute any statistic on economic comparison I spoke to you about. Look at VT and WV and get their figures from literacy to children in poverty to income levels. Gee, Roger Z, you sound like a Harvard wannabe with the attitude but not the brains nor the learning.

Your second point is mute. But you also have no documentation to show otherwise so your point is sterile. Actually, if it wasn't for eminent domain you wouldn't have electricity in your town I'm sure.

Your second point is all mixed up, man. You're trying to mix "property" rights i.e. land, with patents and creative rights. The Supreme Court just ruled against your simplistic and inmature interpretation of this principle in defining eminent domain, whether U like it or not. At the same time the Supremes have always protected trademark and copyrights. Obviously you're no lawyer.

As for the self-pity accusation, I recommend you stop getting your philosophy from Fox News. You soind like that Oreilly guy and it would be comical if it wasn't so pathetic.
jb714
September 16, 2005
Member since 03/4/2003
294 posts
Quote:

Gee, Roger Z, you sound like a Harvard wannabe with the attitude but not the brains nor the learning.

Your second point is mute .




I'm sorry to interject myself in what has otherwise become an entertaining debate/argument, but it seems to me that if you're going to accuse another poster of being a Harvard wannabe, you might want to check your grammar. I believe you meant to say 'Your second point is moot '.
Heather
September 16, 2005
Member since 02/24/2005
170 posts
After reading some of the garbage here, I have decided that maybe we all would be better off befriending community college wannabes over the Harvard wannabes. If this is the way Ivy league schools TRAIN their "educated" minions to behave, we (Southerners) are all better off living in the hills hiding from the corruption that threatens our "backward and under educated" lives
jimmy
September 16, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
Yup, i'd rather argue about whether Lower wildcat is steeper than Shay's Revenge, but while we're on the subject Heather, Have u ever bin cloud skiing? If so, did you wear a helmet?
kennedy
September 16, 2005
Member since 12/8/2001
792 posts
Of you guy's arguing in favor of emminent domain, do you own property?
jimmy
September 16, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
Kennedy, I do. Been threatened w/eminent domain during a failed redevelopment project. That was a few years before this Supreme Court ruling. I'm not against eminent domain per se, I'm very much against any government doing property aquisition through eminent domain for a private, for profit development.
kennedy
September 16, 2005
Member since 12/8/2001
792 posts
Just checking. I agree that I see a need for emminent domain in terms of a public infrastructure project to meet a key public need where all efforts to aquire the land through usual means have failed and the only option left is to force a sale. I'm not saying it's going to make it any better for the land owner on the receiving end but unfortunately it's not always nice. Land and property is a very personal thing. It does take a lot of commitment and effort to get to the point of proprty ownership and once there heaven forefend that it should be taken away under any terms other than your own. In terms of forcing a sale at MPC for a private resort, without all the facts, it is completely up to Mr. Teter to hold out for the best price for his land or not sell it at all. Much as I would like a new resort having never had it I'll never miss it.
jimmy
September 16, 2005
Member since 03/5/2004
2,650 posts
Agree, esp with that eminent domain is a "last resort" and should never be used as a tool for private developers. What they tried here was to declare the whole downtown business district as a "slum & blighted" area so they city could take property and redevelop it. The project caused much controversy, and eventually crashed and burned because national retailers really had no interest in the project. Probably a couple million of public funds also were burned trying to make a project that didn't have a chance of getting off the ground fly.

So Kennedy, rumour has it that you, Irish and Murphy are organizing a DCSki outing for March 17; i'm part Ulster Irish, can i still come?
Murphy
September 16, 2005
Member since 09/13/2004
618 posts
Quote:

So Kennedy, rumour has it that you, Irish and Murphy are organizing a DCSki outing for March 17; i'm part Ulster Irish, can i still come?



Don't be mistaken, I'm not Irish, I'm a mutt. I got the name Murphy because my black coat reminded my owner of a nice Irish Stout.
fishnski
September 16, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
Boy I was afraid to ck out the responses to my "hurricane party lost my judgement comments" But now that i have sobered up I am pleasantly surprised at the response.Thanks for your comments vtskifreak Sometimes I feel so alone in this DCSKI thing! Roger your the best buddy...I mean that from the bottom of the ole heart.Jimmy you need to be a judge or somthing....you got a cool head & seem very nice! PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST(mid atlantic coast....f- the middle east!)
Heather
September 17, 2005
Member since 02/24/2005
170 posts
Jimmy, regular skiing was difficult for me to pick up you know with my unbelievable coordination and all, therefore cloud skiing has not been attempted by this down hiller. Know of of any good cloud instructors (imagination has never been a strong trait of mine either).

Kennedy, my husband and I own property in LM Village. We recently rebuilt our home that we lost to a fire. I am fiercely going to defend any persons right to own property knowing what it was like to have lost everything in a matter of minutes. I can agree that infastructure is acceptable of ED although, I would be hard pressed to consider a new resort infastructure. We can't seem to keep the ones we have open and profitable from year to year, and yet there is disscussion that we still need more. Sometimes desire for something new clouds our ability to see the many gifts we already have in the Mid Atlantic Area.

***THINK LAUREL***
tgd
September 17, 2005
Member since 07/15/2004
585 posts
Quote:

Thanks for your comments vtskifreak Sometimes I feel so alone in this DCSKI thing!



Talk about odd couples! This is like Howard Dean teaming up with Bill Frist. Let's run with this... Assume Bill Frist wins the 2008 presidential election, but Howard Dean leads the Democratic party back into control of both houses of Congress.

After viewing a video tape of Bawalker's land, President Frist declares the Lost River Dams project a worthy exercise of eminent domain - "I've have not seen a better use of someone else's land in all my years of cardiology, you'd have to be brain dead to not realize how much better off the citizens of this great state will be once this land is swimming with catfish under 60 feet of water." Frist knows the so-called "owners" won't go easily and he will need some muscle to drive these ignorant selfish well-armed Walkers from "their" property. Dr. Dean is ready with an idea - he will rally the Democrats behind the plan, provided the President agrees to bring the West Virginia National Guard home from that useless diversion in Iraq. Dean asserts: "Let the military do something useful and contribute to the bottom line for once!" - seizing private property for the public good.

The Walkers put up a good fight, but are eventually overwhelmed by the WVA Guard, detained and sent on an extended vacation to a certain Caribean paradise near Cuba. DCSkiers are outraged by pictures leaked on the Internet of PFC Lindy English (pardoned by Pres Frist especially for this special mission) leading BAWalker from his cage on a leash. They flood the DCSki message board whining in outrage. The increased server and network activity raises the attention of FBI cyber-slooths who begin a secret investigation of this previously unnoticed domestic terrorist cell. Covert government agents infiltrate DCSki and begin trolling on the message board to identify suspected ringleaders - preferably those who "own" significant property that might be put to better use by the government (or its highest campaign contributors).

Mr. Teter, fearing for his own personal liberty caves in to Bill Bright before his property is condemned. Almost Heaven is finally built - into the mega ski resort first envisioned by the Seneca Indians over 300 years ago. Andy's statue is at last erected; not on top of the mountain however, rather in its shadow at the center of Almost Heaven's satellite pay-lot (think of the tax revenue) constructed in accordance with his wishes on the site of his former 2nd homestead.

This robust demonstration of government power for the benefit of the wealthier public is not without cost. Dean leads the takeover of the Mountain State by thousands of rich liberal carpet baggers from from the People's Republic of Vermont - willing to make a quick buck for the public good as the indigenous population is forced to sell their so-called property or face detainment. Deer hunting is outlawed in the state - the deer population controlled instead by a costly sterilization program funded by increased tax revenues. Hybrid-fueled ATVs are introduced - providing the new residents easy and "green" access to their medicinal marijuana crops hidden deep in the Canaan backcountry. Eventually, the remaining original property owners in the state are offered an in-kind trade of their land for recently privatized beach-front property opened off the coast of NC - accessible by a fair-weather bridge built across a hurricane-prone sound. FEMA steps up to provide semi-temporary housing to welcome the new residents. The influx of well-to-do Northern hippies, tree-huggers, and other developers eventually tips the electoral balance turning West Virginia from Red to Blue - making it a kind of reverse Ohio/Florida in Hillary Clinton's successful run for the White House in 2012. I could go on, but this post is already toooooo long.
Roger Z
September 18, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
But at least they'd have health insurance!

Nice post TGD. Sorry I missed the last two days, have been showing a good friend from out west around the "economic hellhole" of western VA. If only my graduate school program was a bit better, there wouldn't really be much of a reason to ever leave this area. Definitely one of the more quaint, beautiful, and hidden places in the Appalachians down here.

It was amusing to see him insist that a discussion of the economic benefits of property rights was a "mute" point in the middle of a discussion about economic benefits of property rights, but after TGD's post there's not much left to say on the matter.

ps- there's no enabling authority for eminent domain for economic development in Virginia. From an article in the Washington Business Journal: "The reality is, the ruling won't affect communities in Virginia," says Susan Bell, director of Arlington County's department of community planning, housing and development. "We don't have the enabling authority at the local level to use eminent domain for economic development."

So I guess NOVA got all it's economic growth the same way almost every city does: density, networks, transportation hubs, institutions, education, and market transactions on owned property, among other things. Funny how that formula works over, and over, and over, and over...
vtskifreak
September 18, 2005
Member since 07/20/2005
8 posts
Quote:

turning West Virginia from Red to Blue - making it a kind of reverse Ohio/Florida in Hillary Clinton's successful run for the White House in 2012.




tgd, may your statement end up in heaven... many of us are working so it becomes reality

And I liked your satire. Shows a good sense of humor
lbotta - DCSki Supporter
September 18, 2005
Member since 10/18/1999
1,526 posts
My first day off in the last three weeks and I could not pass by this thread...

Another vision tagging along with tdg's: vtski freak and Roger Z will attend a Peter Paul and Mary concert together and will be seen singing "If I had a hammer" by a campfire

On the subject of eminent domain, we are either blessed or cursed by our history dating back to the Roman Empire, from which we took the concept. One thing is certain: The Supreme Court gave a vigorous push to an already aggressive definition of taking private land for ostensibly public use.

As much as I find myself in agreement with vtski on a number of issues, I take exception with his assertion that there is some sort of paranoia in the South on property rights. As a matter of fact, the South has a long history of taking private property for economic development when it benefits the ruling classes. One of the earliest cases of eminent domain in the US was in Georgia, where the court admonished that the taking of private property for "the social well-being and commercial prosperity" was within the sovereign right of the state. The post-civil war rebuilding of Atlanta and Charleston would not have possible without eminent domain. Neither would have the railroads, the Astro Dome, the Super Dome, Six Flags, the center of Williamsburg and for that matter, many many Walmarts... :-(

At the same time, I can't subscribe to Roger's vitriol about the North... As a matter of fact, the test case in the Supreme Court, Kelo vs. New London, was in fact from New London, Connecticut, a New England state which by the way is my home state. And most of the effects of this new vast expansion of eminent domain will be felt not in Appalachia but in the North East, where rapid urban gentrification clashes against blighted industrial areas and lower socio economic residential neighborhoods. New York City is about the most salient of these examples, where the price of inner-city real estate approaches a million dollars for a rooom with a doll's house kitchen, a playtoy bathroom and a murphy bed.

Actually, to the chagrin of the South, only two of the 12 states that have introduced post-Kelo legislation are in the South, Alabama and Texas. The rest are northern and two western, OR and CA. So much for paranoia about property rights in the south... And Heather will be happy to know that LV will be covered in the proposed law for the Commonwealth of PA that prohibits the use of eminent domain to turn private property into a nonpublic interest, or for the purpose of increasing the local government's tax base.

As much as I am a beneficiary of urban gentrification, I have to ask myself what we are going to do with the thousands who are displaced from Manhattan, or DC's SoFlo, Philadelphia's Center City or Boston's Roxbury. Sort of an interesting paradox because none of these areas could function without the services provided by people of moderate and low income who are now being removed wholesale. Any urban planners around?

The language of the Supreme Courrt ruling in Kelo vs CT seems to have made economic development a public use in itself rather than a supportive corollary to the principle of public use. I can anticipate a much larger use of this concept in the future.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the near future regarding bawalker's land, or the possible development of a Mt Porte Crayon. One thing is for certain, WV has little to show historically in the area of government support of citizens trying to defend land claims against large corporations, be they coal companies or real estate developers, or in this case, the US Army Corps of Engineers.

One more thing.... To Heather's possible chagrin, Ivy Leaguers and not community college graduates run the world. It is a fact of life. Our immediate former President and the father and son who preceded and succeeded him are Ivy Leaguers. Of 42 presidents, 16 attended Ivy League and 6 others went to "first tier" private schools, while 6 others went to topnotch public schools such as William and Mary, UNC, West Point and Annapolis. In the federal bureaucracy, higher education and post graduate degrees from top rated universities is the rule rather than the exception (http://www.college.ucla.edu/fedb.htm )
Roger Z
September 18, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
Hi Lou-

Good to see you posting again and that was an awesome one at that. I'd like to retract my vitriol about the north- my overall point (as usual, buried) was that if there really was some difference in northern and southern attitudes of property rights, it didn't show in terms of economic development. There are many places in the northeast that are badly off, perhaps not as bad as some portions of Appalachia but certainly not good, either. I grew up in one of them- the Mohawk Valley of upstate New York. Also low on the economic profile is the northeast kingdom of Vermont, portions of central Massachusetts, etc. And of course many formerly industrial communities in the northeast continue to flag.

In my mind, this is indicative of the nature of national economic growth patterns rather than local government Home Rule v. Dillon Rule, eminent domain purposes, etc. Eminent domain has a checkered history for being used for various purposes now regarded as deleterious, which should raise questions in our mind as to how much lattitude we want to give the government for acquisition of land in light of shifting cultural attitudes and values. Moreover, the benefits of eminent domain for economic development purposes is not at all clear, many economic developers dispute it and many places that have been "developed" with eminent domain are in just as bad of shape as ever.

It is certainly true, though, that since at least the Berman case in the 1950s, economic development has been one of the public purposes that local governments may be entitled to use for condemnation of private property. After the Kelo case, I'm convinced of a few things. First, the original public purpose understanding for eminent domain in the early 1800s is far different from its application today, with today's applicable principles being far more broad and obtuse, raising questions both of the efficacy of state action and the equity to landowners as well. Second, most people misunderstand the history of eminent domain in its use, but this has led to- third, Kelo being something of a pyrhhic (sp?) victory for planners. It didn't do much to broaden the scope of government power in eminent domain, but it raised the issue considerably in public view and is thus likely to have a negative repurcussion at the state and local level.

You were kind enough to highlight 12 states where action is already underway to further restrict eminent domain, Lou. Thanks for that. The problem really is that "public use" is most likely too narrow a concept, but "public purpose" as it is currently defined is correspondingly too broad. In their efforts to restrain "public purpose" in eminent domain, states are likely to go too far and create something of a noose for local governments, particularly cities that often find it difficult to acquire enough parcels to create developments that can favorably compete with greenfields in the suburbs.

All that said, for economic development purposes, eminent domain is almost never needed in rural areas. How a ski resort could be justified as E.D. is beyond me; it's a pleasure park for wealthy people more than anything else. What has rubbed me the wrong way throughout this discussion is the "rural folks are rubes" attitude that some people have taken on. To the extent that ivy leagurers feel that way, and to the extent that they run the government, I'm all for William Buckley's old saying that he'd rather be governed by the first 535 people in the Boston phone book than the folks in Congress.
Crush
September 18, 2005
Member since 03/21/2004
998 posts
"go with it, run, run like a small boy in a field ..... I get a sense of it, I just don't understand it."
fishnski
September 18, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
Crush it's simple...don't let these rocket scientist confuse you.Would it be right to make a property owner take an extraordinary amount of money to develop the best,largest & most modern ski resort south of killington,Vt,in the MOUNTAIN state of West Va?Thats the question & the facts are that no one would be displaced(This is high mountain country so rugged even hikers stay away)Would it be right to force someone to sell his property for the enhancement of millions?To employ the max amount of people with the least amount of enviremental impact?....heather,do we need to focus on the smaller Mtns allready there or should we elevate the Mountain state to its fullest potential & have braggin rights not only for west Va but the whole mid Atlantic in general?Maybe you don't care about west va, bieng a penn state girl?Maybe we should forget about the best mountain available in the Mid Atlantic & do what RogerZ proposes(god bless his heart) Build another
"run of the mill" lowland VA resort! ......Ps Ibotta,Why are our tractor trailors full of supplies for the Katrina victoms bieng routed all over the country?We had a whole tractor trailer load of ice brought back to our dock & it sat there & melted! We are making money but the amount 0f tax payers money going to waste must be staggering....I bet we could build "ALMOST HEAVEN" on MPC with all the wasted money!
fishnski
September 18, 2005
Member since 03/27/2005
3,530 posts
PS...Great post tgd. Don't you feel that it is better to be across the board politically than bieng a partisan nutcase?
tgd
September 18, 2005
Member since 07/15/2004
585 posts
As I've gotten older I figured out that no politician really represents my views or proposes views I can stand behind. What's odd is that so many people I know feel the same way. The comedian Louis Black once called the Republicans the party of bad ideas and the Democrats the party of no ideas. A session in Congress begins with a Republican congressman shouting "I've got a bad idea!!!", to which the Democrat responds "I can make it sh*tt*er!"
bawalker
September 18, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
Wow I found a 2005 Subaru Outback 2.5XT 5spd manual with loaded options for $29,000, but it was marked down to $24,000. With trade in value and cash down thats an easy $20,000 target.

Too bad I don't have that on hand right now.
Roger Z
September 18, 2005
Member since 01/16/2004
2,181 posts
Heh... my libertarian friend will LOVE that one.

Brad, since I'm going to be doing economic development next year for a career, would you like me to use my powers of eminent domain, confiscate the car, and then give it to you for "public purpose"? I'd be happy to do so if you'll be so kind as to give me rides to CV, particlarly after (or during) a blizzard.

- Roger Z, Economic Development Specialist- "If You Own it, I'll Take It"
bawalker
September 18, 2005
Member since 12/1/2003
1,547 posts
lol all you have to do is help with gas and I'll meet you in Wardensville. With an Outback properly fitted with snowtires and good chains, I'll go up past Seneca without a thought in the middle of a blizzard.
DCSki Sponsor: Massanutten Resort

Ski and Tell

Snowcat got your tongue?

Join the conversation by logging in.

Don't have an account? Create one here.

0.14 seconds