Greetings, this is a great forum.
My wife and I are looking into buying a second home somewhere near a ski resort. Like a lot of people, we want to leverage the equity in our main home and buy a weekend get away. I know that is rather vague, so I'll try and provide some parameters.
- 4 season
- 3 hour drive time from northern VA ( the shorter the better - more use) 7s,hv,wisp,liberty,roundtop,cv,tl,rt,wg,bryce,mas,
- We have two young children (4 & 9) who haven't learned to ski yet
- We think it is better to afford a place that we don't have to rely on rental income
- Is a minimum size recommended
- If we go with one to rent, do you shoot the moon and try for the villages at SS (even if it is out of the drive zone)
- For those of you who rely on renting, do you get enough ski time
- How important is Ski in/Ski out
- How important is a location onsite
- Is renting a offsite location feasible
- Links to more information( I have been to most of the real estate sites)

Thanks in advance,

A note of caution: Hidden Valley is for sale, so just be sure who the new owners are and what their philosophy is before buying and renting. See other threads on this site.
The Colonel

Our family has been privilged to enjoy several vacation properties over the years. I would encourage you to think very hard about what your motivations REALLY are for purchasing property and let that be the overriding factor in any decision. For example, if you frequently get away on the weekends now, and are looking to have your own place to act as a base camp, then look for a place that will provide the minimum amount of financial stress while meeting your CORE criteria for how you wish to enjoy the place. If, on the other hand, your motiviation is primarily financial,then look (and look and look) for somewhere that appears to provide a the best return on investment over your investment period.

Now for the words of caution:

Most mountain and lake properties are priced very high relative to their historical market right now.

If you rent, your expenses will be MUCH higher than expected. For example, the management company will take from 30 to 40% of gross receipts. Then there is the cleaning fees for each occupancy event, and more "crap charges" then you expect. Through in Condo fees if in a condo or snowplowing, lawn maint, painting and repairs, etc... if not in an association. At the end of the year, you will likely have negative cash flow around 8% of the purchase price. Be very careful about the "tax advantage" that realtors will figure in to any analysis they give you - odds are pretty good that the AMT will negate that and you'll have to carry forward loses until you sell.

Also, if you rent, you will have a tough decision at the times you most want to use your property. Christmas week, for example, is a very high demand week. So, if you choose to use it, you are in effect "renting" it from yourself at the net rental that you would have realized. Same holds true for MLK and GWB weekends. Given your children's ages, it sounds like you'll be captive to school schedules for quite some time, so you will likely find it very frustrating if you cannot, for financial reasons, use your place on the few extended weekends you want, after paying the bills month after month after month.

As to slopeside - yes, it is very nice, but you will pay handsomely for the privilage. In my book, the only place that is arguably worth it is the "older" properties at Snowshoe. Elsewhere, the fall off in pricing is greater than the limited benefit of a slopeside unit.

Which brings us to location. Our experience is that if you want to use it, make it close. That means 4 to 5 hours, absolute max. (2 or 3 is much better). If you are outside that range, it's a major drive to get you you place. In that case, think investment and think beyond the mid atlantic, e.g. NH, Utah, CO, NM, etc.. because you're simply not going to use the place very often. Also, in this case, go back and review the points about costs and return.

For rentals, more bathrooms is important. For your own use - well, you're the best one to answer that question. For location, the best "values" around these parts tend to be in CV right now. Some very nice places are still in the 130 - 150 per sq ft range. Black bear, Deerfield and Northpoint come to mind. At Deep Creek, there are still some non-lakefront, non ski area properties that could be viable (depending on your budget, of course) without playing financial roulette. If price is essentially no object, then Deep Creek Lakefront (or Smith Mtn or Lake Anna lakefront if skiing is down on the list) is probably the best thing going. Some Wintergreen properties are very nice as well with the added advantages of easy access, multiple golf courses, and non-outdoors diversions.

To summarize, I would say:

Buy to use, not to rent if at all possible.

Think beyond just skiing.

Be very skeptical of external "financial analysis"

Beware resorts that seem to spend a lot of money selling image, status or comparisions to other locations (you are looking in WV. Not Vail. Not BC, etc....).

Do NOT, at any cost, get suckered into a time share, aka, interval ownership, situation. It is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT an investment and you will be locked into rising fees forever on a questionable asset that has virtually no resale value.

Good luck!

Tommo pretty much nailed it, but I'll make a couple of additional points.

1. The trend right now is not to put a unit on the rental market and instead rely on capital appreciation over time to help defray costs. This strategy has worked well over the past 5 years as values have gone up, up, up, but it may not work once things flatten out. For ski resorts, the trend is a disaster because it means more cold beds.

2. Don't ever underestimate the value of slopeside. For me, it has made all the difference in the world and often makes a weekend at Timberline more fun than a trip to New England. Here are just a few advantages:
--no snowy drives once you get there.
--no walking across endless parking lots in ski boots.
--having the ability to dip into your condo at any time for food, or just to use a clean toilet (big plus!!!).

In ski resort real estate, value is directly related to ski slope access. The closer you are to a slope, the better. That's why a 650 square foot 1 BR just went on sale at T-line for $110,000 and yet you can buy a 3 BR house in Davis or Thomas for less money. Go figure.

4. Don't underestimate the other seasons. I actually enjoy my place more in the summer than the winter--something I did not count on when I bought. T-line, Snowshoe, and Wisp have great Summer activities but other resorts are lacking in this regard.

5. No matter how you slice it, it's cheaper to rent places and stay at hotels than to own. I've run the numbers many time in Excel. What makes a ski place more valuable is the ability to use it during other seasons and the luxury of being able to go whenever you want (which of course assumes that your unit is not on a rental program). Having your own base with your own food and cooking gear is also great.

6. Big downside: You'll get bored of any resort you purchase into for skiing. Hence, you will definitely still want to ski other resorts and travel further afield. This is yet another reason why renting is always cheaper. If variety is the spice of life (which it is for most skiers), then think twice about owning a place. However, if you can learn to love a mountain for what it is and not get frustrated at having to ski it 20 or more times a year, then by all means go for it.

I think John and I are in complete agreement, even though it may not appear so on the slopeside question. It IS very, very nice to be able to go directly to and from the slopes. However, is this worth the price? If you are content to ski one area, then it may be the way to go. In our case, (2 parent, 2 kids, extended family, friends, etc...) we tend prefer to go to different ski areas a couple of times a year (other than the kids who get season passes at Wisp - a great value for them). But again, we tend to look at places from more of a 12 month perspective, and while slopeside is superior for 3 months, it's irrelavent the other 9. Again, all depends on your principle motivation.

But owning and not renting (to others) beats renting your place out hands down virtually all the time if you plan to use the place more than a week or two a year. But, as JohnFMH said, renting a place for your trips will ALWAYS be less expensive. (As an aside, the folks who complain about rental costs really ought to do the math - NOBODY is making money on a cash flow basis by renting places out these days unless they either bought quite some time ago or paid cash for the property. The ones making the dough are the management companys and realtors. The only return you will see is when you sell, and that will rarely be much except in markets such as we've seen the last 5 years.)

And, oh yeah, forget the "fixer upper." You won't have time unless you become unemployed, in which case you may be really in trouble because it will be both a cash drain AND hard to sell. As I think John has done at TL, keep your committment modest relative to your resources and you will be happy with your purchase. Give up size for location if that is your primary criteria, and understand that you are buying for your own pleasure, not to make money. If you can do that, you'll find having a second home is very rewarding undertaking.

Great posts from tommo. I hereby nominate tommo to the DCSki real estate advisory board (johnfmh is already an honorary member). Strongly concur with the warning about Timeshares. Some seem satisfied with them while living in the moment, but what about at resale time? They cost as much or more than a one week hotel charge or condo rental fee, with much less freedom of location choice and likely none of the appreciation potential & resale value of true home ownership.

I've never had the wherewithal to own a ski house, but my folks owned a vacation property next to Blue Knob in the '70s and '80s. Like the current environment, those were times of tremendous real estate appreciation around DC, but in western PA their home value only went from about $25k to 50k during 15 yrs of ownership and that exit price included furnishings and lots of tender loving care. They never rented-out the property. I know some vacation home owners have seen great appreciation at Snowshoe recently, but I think generally mid-Atlantic ski home values are considerably more volatile than properties within a gallon of gas of the Beltway, especially at less than completely rock solid resort establishments.

IMHO, if you're responsible for a family of skiers, the potential boredom of ownership at one ski area is far outweighed by the logistical convenience of a permanent base, particularly if you buy sooner rather than later. College age kids tend to seek broader ski horizons or, god forgive 'em, get into nonski activities. Finally, to echo tommo again, wherever you buy, do it for your own personal enjoyment, rather than for investment and appreciation potential.

Oh by the way, that house at Blue Knob was one of the great joys in the life of my parents and my three siblings and I.

Let me tell you, if you do away with the slopeside mentality you can find pleny of really nice places dirt cheap up there which a fair spot of land with in a half hour of the slopes.