Here's some answers, hope it sheds some light:
1. Top of the World is privately owned and cannot be torn town. Has had some renovations done, larger windows. Almost doubled in value over 2 years.
2. Mountain Lodge just paid off a $5M improvement project, none needed or planned.
3. There have been numerous plans for Shavers Center, none have been greelighted. It is part of long-term plan.
4. No plans for advanced terrain, Snowshoe doesn't need more. Cupp and Shay's are underutilized as it is. 90% of the guests are beginners and intermediates at best. More blue and green slopes are planned.
5. No plans for new, inexpensive condos. Expedition was as low as they can go. Rimfire is a much better value; lower prices, better amenities.
6. Tree skiing-too much liability, won't happen.
7. Hotel that's ski in/ski out. Highly unlikely, Intrawest is real estate company first, lodging company 2nd.
8. Dorm style, inexpensive lodging-see above answer. Intrawest is a real estate company, bargain shoppers don't figure into the equation. Top of the World and Snowcrest are inexpensive lodging choices.
9. All inclusive-Snowshoe offers packages, but does not include food and beverage.
10. Silver Creek is the ONLY place for kids. Better and safer facilities for the little ones.
11. Some parking improvements are being done this summer.
12. As more slopes are built, there will be less congestion at Ball Hooter.
13. More vertical and powder. Plans are in the works to move the mountain to Utah, maybe bump it up to 12,000' and catch some of that Utah fluffy power.

Hope that sheds some light, Intrawest knows slope expansion is needed and once environmental issues are resolved, it will begin.

Thanks very much for the info. Any idea how long the environmental studies will take, and how long after that will they get approval to start?

What about the "Free Beer"?

Thanks again.

I would be interested to hear what 'gossip' there is as to where/when new run/trails might be cut? I guess I 'm fishing for whether there will be any upgrades or additions in place prior to Winter 05-06. The environmental impact study can go on forever thereby affecting upgrades. But there must be some sort of information floating around as to what will be done prior to the study's conclusion. Huh? We are starting to plan for next season [it's never too early!] ... so it would be nice to know if there is something new to look forward to at SS. I think by now I can probably do most runs blindfolded so changes would be welcome.

I agree on your assessment of Rimfire, best location and facilities for the money and that's why we always stay there.

And .. thanks for your answers .. they help in getting a clearer view of where SS is going.

Thanks for the honest answers. It looks like you have identified the demographics or your target market and are going full ahead with it. This is a good thing! I am sure you will be successful. I guess I have outgrown the mountain which is why I have so many complaints/suggestions. Good luck.

Thanks for info Michael. Welcome to the msg forum.

Regarding the green and blue expansion plans, any chance they will cut a blue trail parallel to Cupp? Or will all such expansion likely be confined to the Basin side of mtn?

Is appreciation easing or increasing for Snowshoe real estate. Do see any end in the current boom?

Is it your belief that Intrawest is in it for the long run at Snowshoe? Pun intended.

Thanks.

I was curious as to the rating system used on rental properties. There are 3 ratings I am aware of....gold, silver, and bronze. I assume gold is the best, followed by silver, and then bronze. Are there any levels below these? What are the parameters for a property to be included in each of the categories? Do they vary from complex to complex or is there an across the board rating? For example is there a rating system for say Rimfire, and then a different system for say Shamrock, or does the system include Rimfire, Shamrock, and all other properties. Also which properties tend to rent well? Specifically out of Rimfire, Shamrock, ML, and Top of the World. Thanks for any/all of the answers you can provide. Sorry, about the many questions I have presented, but I could be in the market for a condo.

Michael,

Does Old Spruce/ReMAX rate their rental properties in the same way that Snowshoe/Intrawest rate their rental properties?

If so, how would a property owner get their property bumped up from bronze to silver or from silver to gold. What upgrades would be required?

BTW - I sent you a PM.

Michael, agreeing and adding a couple of things on your excellent comments:

1. There are two species that can stop anything at Snowshoe, that being the Cheat Mountain Salamander and the red cockaded woodpecker, both of which have residence at Snowshoe. Redgate Road took an extra two years to make because of one of these endangered species, and their presence is obiquituous in that area, so any project that is started can come to a screeching halt in one day's discovery of an endangered habitat. Hopefully cutting additional trails may not suffer this end.

2. If anyone has been to Top of the World (TOTW) lately, the beautification of the outside has halped to make it a desirable commodity. The appreciation of TOTW units is enviable, and more so now that the new mini-village will be built quite near TOTW. Together with the VERY upscale development of the Timbers as well as Loggers' Run, this area is exploding in value. Particularly since a recent land swap between Intrawest and the private owner of much of the land to the south of Widowmaker allowed the developer to start building another sumptuous lodge and at the same time, may allow Intrawest the necessary room for trail expansion around the Shavers Lake, as well as build the new condo/lodge that is presently planned.

3. The Summit Condo renovations have continued in the negotiation stages with a homeowners committee that is working closely with the Homeowner's Association (HOA) Board. Unfortunately, the myriad of details inherent in such a large construction project have resulted in (although anticipated) frustrating delays. It is possible that one or two of the Summit condo buildings will undergo the outside renovation this year. The other ones will wait to '06. Too soon to tell...

4. The Homeowners Weekend is approaching and this year will match the Memorial Day Weekend. All the HOAs at Snowshoe will have their annual meeting on that weekend.

5. There is no interest by either Intrawest, private developers or any HOA to have budget accommodations built at mountaintop. As a matter of fact, one of the biggest bones of contention between older condo HOAs and Intrawest's new condo complexes is the way that the Intrawest rental program favors putting groups and college students in the older units, thereby transfering much of the rental damage to these condo complexes and treating them as the heirs to the budget units. However, for an owner who has his property managed by Intrawest, he/she would have to renovate his/her unit to the standards of a new unit to achieve the "gold" rating and it may not be cost effective to spend 100K on renovating a unit when it will be treated like a budget place. The result is that, like myself, I do not deal with or have my property managed by Intrawest. The ancillary companies such as ReMax are doing a great business in this area.

Thanks for the replies Michael. I look forward to skiing with you all in Utah.

On a more serious note, that is rather surprising to hear that Intrawest regards Cupp and Shay's as "underutilized." Cupp is something of a minefield by mid-afternoon: littered with hard pack and fallen skiers. Does Intrawest make their estimations of utilizations by a) skier use of the lift or b) trail capacity? If the former, are there any plans to build an intermediate run in the Western Territory? If the latter- what on earth is their idea of a run "at capacity"???

Silver Creek is definitely a better area for beginners and families, but are there any plans to reduce the number of crossovers in the Basin?

There has been talk of an intermediate trail on WT side, but nothing cocrete at this point. Shay's is the under utilized run, and that's the lower half, especially when it's bumped up. Cupp tends to be crowded on weekends and holidays, and since it's open to all skill, or lack thereof, levels, can be challenging.

We don't put a rating on our properties, our owners understand that nice units rent better than old, tired units. When upgrades are needed, they do it, if not, we drop them from the program. I replied to your PM, thanks

Lou,
Great comments and as usual, you're right on the money. I hope Summit doesn't become the "new" Spruce Lodge and if the renovations are done as planned, your per/night rates should reflect the upgrade, lessening the chances of Summit become a dormitory.

Roger Z :

What do you define as 'crossovers'? IMHO .. those few crossover are quite often necessary to get from one end of the Basin to the other. The only places where I see any issue might be the intersections of Powderidge & Heisler Way, Flume & Hootenanny or Flume & Grabhook; [Hootenanny could be redesigned a bit more effectively to allow a smoother flow into Flume instead of the required tight left turn] The only other place that needs something done is not a crossover; it's where Powder Monkey greenie riders have to utilize Singletree to get from the upper to the lower portions. If you look on the trail map, it shows Powderidge as a straight run to the bottom. Yeah right! It looks like there was supposed to be a cut thru to the right of Singletree but it was never completed. I don't know how many times I have been stopped by a gaggle of novices frozen in fear at the top or in full snowplow down the center of Singletree. If SS completes that cut-thru it would free up a lot of congestion on the short narrow stretch of Powderidge between Heisler and the top of Singletree.

Snowshoe .. are ya listening?

Lower Shay's is under utilized! What a beautiful thing. And with the long flat run to the top of Lower Shay's it keeps the rift raft off the slope. Hopefully they'll get it open earlier this coming season.

Jim,
With the recent selling of Expedition Station in a record 4 hours, Intrawest is here for the long run. That told them that Snowshoe is still a very strong and attractive real estate investment. Now comes the slopes. I know one of the parties thats working with Snowshoe in getting the environ. issues cleared up. The big picture is this: Snowshoe has enough land to mitigate, and by not allowing growth, you are seriously limiting the areas largest employer to hire more locals. Growth creates jobs creates tax dollars. I like salamanders as much as the next guy, but there's plenty of famalies out here that could use the work.

Here's why the rating system is in place. For years, owners of older properties wouldn't keep them up. Lodging rates continued to climb and there was starting to be a big gap in quality. People paying top dollar for a dog condo probably aren't coming back.
Snowshoe did this: if you're not going to maintain your property, we're going to hit you in the wallet. Gold, silver, bronze. Gold-beautiful unit, new carpet, furniture, appliances, paint, cabinets, etc. Looks like you're walking into a brand new condo. Silver-some upgrades, more work to go. Bronze- Woof. Orange shag carpet, faded ski posters from the 80's. Here's how the system works-when a guest calls in or does it online and checks availability, ONLY the Golds pop up on the screen. Once they're all gone, then the Silvers rent. Lastly, the Bronze. What this means is the Golds get all the first bookings, but more importantly, the mid-week, early and late season, and summer bookings. Does it pay off? In the long run, yes, especially resale.
As far as best renting properties, anything in The Village. That's where people want to be, that's where the action is, it's convenient. Rents well all year, especially summer and conference business. For quieter new properties, check out Creekside Villas or Logger's Run. Very different but both solid investments. Hope that helps.

Hey Mike,

The downside to the rating system is that the guest has no idea what level property they are getting. The guest pays the same amount for a gold unit as they do for a bronze. In fact if you go as a group, some may get gold while others get bronze and there is a distinct difference between the two. When is Snowshoe going to start disclosing to the guests what they are actually renting? One would think that Snowshoe would want to properly set guest expectations. Why don't they rate things on a 1 to 4 star basis? That way they can charge more for the 4 star and less for the 1. This would allow people who are willing to sacrifice quality for lower prices to enjoy the mountain just as much as the people who will only stay in the nice places and are willing to pay top dollar. This is an idea Snowshoe should look into. Snowshoe are you listneing? How does Old Spruce compare since they do not have a ratings system?

I agree, but the thought process is that over time, all units will at least be a Silver, and the gap in quality is reduced. The complexes themselves are rated, so there shouldn't be too many surprises. Snowshoe has dropped units that didn't make an attempt to upgrade. In our management company, if a unit is starting to get tired and the owner won't upgrade, we also drop the property. We are very selective about what properties we take on, and there are certain complexes that we won't take into our program.

Which is why a lot of people are renting their units on their own. I have a friend who has a unit, and he does it on his own. Too many times he has asked central reservations not to rent to certain types of people (i.e. college age) and they have ignored his request. Is his unit old? Yes. Does it have orange shag carpet? Yes. Is it clean? Yes. You really expect someone to plow tens of thousands of dollars into their condo's in Leatherbark, and the halls and outside are all beat up? Thye can't get the same $$$ that the new buildings get. I don't need (nor want) a plush, newly renovated condo. All I do is sleep in it. By requiring renovations, the costs will get passed on to the consumer. A family of 4 already can't afford to ski there.

Maybe we should start an "Old, Tired, Beat but Cheap Rental Agency" Then at least people will know what they are getting with no worries of overpayment. Does any agency concentrate on tired units?

Snowcone- I was wondering about whether they were necessary or not but would need to ski it again to get a better sense. I guess one thing I didn't like was that a couple intersections I came to there were semi-blind looks available uphill- if someone was barreling down the slope they'd be on you before you know it.

The crossovers are a difficult issue, but all I could think of there this January was the way Camelback was (and might still be) back in the late 80s. Extremely dangerous place to ski back then. When you have novice trails traversing intermediate or higher pitches you've got a brewing disaster. So I wonder if there isn't a way to reduce these crossovers, thus providing longer uninterrupted drops for intermediate skiers and safer thru-ways for cross and novice skiers.

Again, I haven't skied there enough to know if this issue could be addressed or not. Maybe some other folks have some better insight on it.

One way to reduce the cross overs is to force people to zig-zag up and down the mtn. requiring a lift up ballhooter to get from the widowmaker to the northern tract. But nobody wants more traffic on the ballhooter lift.

Another thing that would help would be if the trails merged and then split a little further down hill rather than just intersting at nearly a right angle. Lastly, there are a few places where you have a trail merging from your left and right simultaneously. They could have been staggered more.

All good things to keep in mind when Moonshine Mtn is built (I like that name jimmy, thanks ).

Ullr, absolutely agree with much of what you say. The answer for those of us who bought older units is that increasingly, opting out of Intrawest makes sense both financially and peace-of-mind wise.

By the way, my unit, which has been totally remodeled, rents for the same price than a red-shag, cheap-paneled, Carter-era-appliances unit.

I guess the crux of the issue is the reason why a particular owner buys his/her unit. Used to be that just about all the units were sold for investment. This is no longer the case. In my case as well as numerous owners at both SS, and the Davis/Canaan/TL area, second homes, peace of mind and relaxation for family and friends, is the #1 reason for the purchase; to have a place we can call a second home in what has become a well-known area for urbanites. Rentals are only incident to my ownership and a good way to ensure the place is utilized when I'm not there. There are many more units in both new and old Snowshoe areas going that way. Some of us bought units with the red shag carpet and have redone them to look and feel better than new units.

After gutting the place and spending well over the purchase price in improvements, I am proud of what has been done. Wireless network, complimentary computer, fax, copier, new appliances, jacuzzi, library, towel warmers, etc. I want to be able to telecommute and I want to be able to have my friends, and the incidental renters, to come over and be able to carry on their lives with minimum of interruption of both life style and occupations. Several friends could not come over to Snowshoe as a family because one of the couple teleworked and took care of the kids while hubby went off to ski. Now they can do both. I even procured high chairs for those with kids. And it makes good business sense too as so many couples or singles in the urban professional crowd are in that situation... work and vacation are one and the same nowadays for many people. Or else, not all partners are into skiing or biking and the other partner or kids need alternatives.

After doing that, what I DON'T NEED is to have a crowd of College persons come over and splash beer on signed art, rip up the carpet and break the range glasstop. Forgive me if there are serene or respectable college students out there, but the last College Weekend we had at the Summit came accompanied by a four thousand dollar damage bill. Fortunately, mine was not one of the damaged units.

The reason why I am so pleased with my present rental agent (by the way it is ReMax), is exactly that they are quite adept at screening the damage-prone crowd. I don't mind my unit renting for the same price as the shag-carpeted unit as the principal reason for my ownership was not income. However, I want the unit taken care of by someone else as if it was his/her own. In the almost five years they have been managing it, I have only lost one item, a "Church-Key" bottle opener from Switzerland. That being the only damage I have received in five years, I'm doing quite well.

Here's some info.
Best place for rock bass-Cass Railroad parking lot. Head upstream about 50 yards. Williams River is pretty dry, some pockets, but not too good.
Blue run on Cupp side. Eventually, but not a priority. Slopes coming near Widowmaker bowl, still waiting for environmental issue to be resolved.
Summit hasn't started, contractor still putting together material costs.
As far as dropping ropes earlier, not sure why they made the change in the first place.