Ok, we need a skier's slang dictionary. A 'whale' is a large elongated mogul? Is it standalone? Also I've heard mention of "spines" and other oddities but not in this thread, any thoughts?

Easy guys. I agree with the general idea of Fred's post, but he is probably underestimating Roger Z.'s skiing. From Roger Z.'s previous posts, I'll admit to being surprised that he would ever critique an area's grooming. Life getting too cushy down there in Hokie land? Met a woman who skis at Deer Valley?

I didn't mean it that way.

As someone who has taught skiing for ten years and snowboarding for five before moving to the southeast and getting a "real job", I can tell you, for sure, that your never to good to take a lesson or to learn.

I didn't call anybody a "picker" or say you were skiing in a wedge, but I will say if you think Off the Wall is to difficult, or anything at Timberline for that matter, then you could definetily benefit from a lesson.

Let's be realistic. Lets put this in perspective. Anybody who has skied out West or at a real mountain with real steeps and bumps knows that the most difficult trails in the Midlatlanitc are begginer to moderate trails by any mountain's standards - out West or up North.

All of the things RogerZ discussed and what we have all been talking about for the last year to me are signs of a larger problem under the surface. I'm sure can tell us more about this, but I think there is a real sense of urgency for the owners of Timberline to really batten down the hatches and run a business properly.

I think if I remember right there was a thread some time ago regarding should Timberline continue to be a shantytown of a ski resort nestled in the hidden back mountains of an 1850 style WV, or should it become more of a 2005 Wisp class resort? All of those arguments aside it boils down to just having bad business practice, and having business practices that are not customer oriented. Basic business schooling tells one that revenue coming in is to be distributed about the business to see that all areas of a business remain vital and functioning.

In this case there are several areas to Timberline that need immediate attention by the current owners. Only john can really give insight onto their financial status, their risk taking abilities and so forth. But obviously the main item is infrastructure expansion and maintainence. I.E. a lovely quad lift, better grooming equipment, better grooming staff, etc. The second area is the hospitality aspect from having clean and spacious guest areas to having a well maintained, spacious parking/unloading area. The best I ever seen on the hospitality side of things has been Whitetail in my limited exposure to resorts. Because honestly, is it me or does anyone else feel like you are sneaking in the backdoor to someones house when arriving at timberline, parking and looking at the backside of this ugly lodge?

There are a ton of other things I can hit on but it'd simply be beating the proverbial dead horse. But I would like to know what Timberlines gross and net revenues are per fiscal year, what their expenses are, how much cash is going into each expenditure and so forth. While Timberline might be on a tight budget I don't believe it's a far fetched idea that they can have some restructuring done that would allow for infrastructure improvements. This isn't something that would be immediately fixed, but would rather be a process that would distribute the upgrading over say a 5 year period with the most pressing concerns addressed first. The end result of this is that Timberline could turn into a much higher quality resort and also increase property value of the resort itself.

This is just a very simple and basic couple year strategy that wouldn't be hard to impliment for Tline if they really wanted too. I honestly think that if they searched for an investor, or a 'quiet' investor that they could find one. That would give them the intial cash to get this started and if they wanted to buy out the invester later they could.

2005-2006:
- Finish the green/blue trail expansion on the south/western side of the mountain.
- Install a new fixed-grip quad lift to replace Thunderdraft. Even if it's a used one from a european resort, it's worth it.
- Move the current Thunderdraft lift and install it from the U turn of Winterset to nearly the top.
- Replace/Install better lighting on more trails at Timberline. I fear they are loosing major revenues because not having the ability to keep or attract skiiers after 5pm. I would go so far as to say have the new trail completely lit, OTW, the drop, white lightening, and lower salamander lit. While that would only increase their lit terrain to maybe 50%, it's better than the subpar lit terrain now.
- Look at using some of the developed land along Timberline Road as a place for a potential Wisp like hotel. Depending on the amount of land available in the Winterset area that could house a nice 3-4 story hotel with shuttle or walkway from there to the ticket windows.
- Work on adding more summer activities to attract more revenues. I.E. Offer Paintball ranges on the slopes. That I know would attract men and women of all ages to join in, and if marketed properly to many paintball magazines, TLine could hold competitions there.
- Can't forget the Terrain Parks... BOTH of them. Let lower dew drop be just a trail, bumps-n-jumps area and I'd almost suggest turning Good intentions into one long halfpipe. Having both served by their own hand lifts, a carpet lift, or better yet, a double lift that services from the bottom of lower dew drop, goes along side Pearly Glades to the winterset spur where the lift is aimed at the park and pipe riders.

2006-2007:
- Work on capital improvements to the lodge area alone. This includes paving the road upto and around the unloading circle, parking lots and not just paving, but putting in decent concrete sidewalls for the havement. At least make it look like a Wal-Mart parking lot with painted lines.
- Possibly build onto, or modify the back side of the lodge so it looks more welcoming. Having a concrete side walk would be a plus.
- Get rid of the rental shop from where it is, and build a new building beside the ski patrol hut for rentals only.
- Create a whole new kitchen area similiar to Whitetails. One that is professional looking, has a wide range of foods either made or pre-packaged. I would go as far as to try and attract an outside steak restraunt to come in, possibly in the former rental area, for a steak house and lounge. Thats a revenue stream from the steakhouse paying rent to TLine.
- Glades, Glades and more Glades. There is a nice area between White Lightening and Thunderdraft that would be great to extend glade runner. I would make this an 'open' gladed area, where all the saplings have been cut out allowing anyone to enter and exit at any place. There is great potential for having glades between Thunderstruck and upper almost heaven. I would make those 'closed' glades. You know, the type that have brush and thicket on the outside of the trees with small secretive entraces into this dark deep forrest, but once inside it's cleaned out open for hitting stashes of powder. I would bring back Cherry Bowl to be this type as well.
- Continue lighting more terrain as incoming revenues allow.

2007-2008:
- With a new fixed grip quad in place, Thunderdraft moved to serve upper "Winterset", it'd be time to modify SilverQueen into an experts only. If you fall once your ticket is marked, if you fall twice it's yanked. Also I'd remove those seats because sorry, they just don't hold us 6'5" people very well.
- Bring in more snowmaking. Timberline is somewhat set on snowmaking so it's not a prioritity need compared to lifts. I wouldn't hesitate to get polecats installed in more than just the base lodge, but have them along White Lightening, Thunderstruck, and one of the blues. Then expand snowmaking via smaller wisp like tower guns, hidden along the trees to concel their profile on the other top down trails. Simply put more guns = more snow.
- As revenues grow continue to market the skiing as the Mid-Atlantic headquarters for best skiing. Market market market it like crazy. Work to get the season started sooner and keep marketing to get people in until the last morcel of snow melts. Sometrails may have to close, but extending the season and working HARD to keep people coming in, even if locals, will generate a longterm committment to customers that Timberline is here to provide quality skiing and service.
- Time to start thinking about that new lodge, or a hotel down along the Winterset road area. I'd press for a new lodge because more people would see that than a hotel. I wouldn't rule out building an entirely new huge main lodge area between the current lodge and the SilverQueen lift area, tear down part of the current lodge and join the two together.

Actually I think skiing out west is a bit easier due to better snow, with the exception being the terrain eventually tilts in the wests favor towards difficulty well past us. I don't know where the line is but I seem to recall at one time Bold Decision with massive bumps (whales?) and a bit of ice and rocks thrown in, being about as challenging a mogul run as I 've found east or west (i miss that run!). Also I think out west the moguls tend to be rounder and more even than around here -- at least that's my experience. From there of course you move more or less farther off trail and its true we don't have anything much to compare to here -- no cliffs, cornices, giant bolders, tree stands, etc... But that's somewhat mediated by their (in general) nice soft snow (& plenty of it) which makes all that stuff accessible.

So bully rogerz! T-line sucks and you won't catch me there ever!

Fred, have you skied off the wall in the past month? While I am not the most well traveled skier I know a F-ed up run when I see one. OTW is totally hosed in its current configuration. Jsut about every 30 ft there is a bullet proof frozen ice cliff waiting to be jumped. While it may be good practice for the next extreme skier in training, it sure is unconventional. The only similar configuration I have seen was at Blue Knob on extrovert where the conditiosn are always blown off ice. However this was even worse.

Since midatlantic mountians are max about 1000 vertical the challenge arround here isn't necessarily the extreme terrain but the conditions... Typically we have two types of snow... Ice and crud. A relatively shallow bump run frozen solid is much harder to ski than a paccked powder groomed slope much steeper.

And I think you are incorrect in your assesment of T-Line's difficulty. It is a legitimate "expert mountain". Both in terms of the skiers who frequent it and the trails. Steep and narrow with ony the snow nature provides the trails under both Thunder draft and silver queen are legit black diamonds anywhere. the drop with its kickers at the entry narrow and dog legged was described as a "classic" new england style run. Also Silver streak, the groomer is pretty steep and fast slope.

I am sure T-Line on tuesday was a totally different animal than I saw last weekend. The freeze thaw cycle is cruce.

Interesting to me that everyone wants fast quad lifts. This weekend while riding a lift up my son mentioned that he liked riding the lift (a slow two seater at bryce). He said it gave us time to talk. Of course he also said that the ride down the mountain was the real attraction. I think quads just lead to congestion on the slopes. Personally, I'd rather wait a little longer in the line than double the amount of folks on the slopes.

A few weeks back, I found OTW difficult to continuously link turns on without stopping to pick a new line at each whale. But I did find it fun. I must of went down it 5 times before my out of shape legs told me to go find something easier. It was also cool to watch some of the more aggressive folks catch some big air off the whales. I think the real issue is that OTW was the only run with anything resembling moguls and it was way extreme. It would have been nice to also have a run which had a more traditional mogul field, where the average intermediate/advanced skier could run a line with some speed.

John,
I have to agree with you. I used to get all upset about what T-Line COULD/SHOULD be doing. Instead, I do most of my skiing elsewhere but I still visit at least once a year. If the snow's good, there's a lot to do there Otherwise, it's still good. Any day on skis is better than a day at work

-Warren-

Ok! Ok! After reading the comments on this thread, I can honestly say that there is truth in what everyone is saying about each mountain/resort. Skiers are like craftsmen, each desirous of their own special tools (skis/boards) and materials (terrain/conditions). My opinion of a resort or specific trail may differ for a multitude of personal reasons. And we must remember, we do live in the southeast where 6" of fresh is very special and a reason for celebration. Comparing western to eastern is akin to hot dogs to filet . That being said, We all have our preferences and favorites and nothing mentioned here will change that. So....I will ski fresh powder on the dark side of the moon when there's the next 12" dump , do a skier derby at K corner in the basin at the shoe , ski mush at w-green , play on OTW's boilerplate whales, deal with ungroomed cruising (aren't we spoiled?) , ride slow lifts over and over , and when it's a warm sunny day just enjoy and be thankful for what we do have . After all, we do live, work, and play in the southeast where skiing really shouldn't exist anyway.

Good wrap-up kwill. About Dark Side of the Moon, the one time I boarded it there was 10" fresh and I thought I'd NEVER get over to it. me and a few other boarders pushed and pushed and pushed, some gave up and decided to just hit meadows instead and some stopped and took a snackbreak to regain their strength before pushing further onward. I will say once I got there it was an incredible run. The effort needed to get there on a board in powder reminds you of climbing a peak at Breckenridge for a bowl so it seems like you are backcountry boarding by the time you get to the steep, at least until you get to the bottom and almost get run over by kids on tubes They could have stood to groom that traverse a bit

One thing that always puzzled me about Timberline was that crazy beginners lift. I've never seen ANYONE on it mid week afternoon. Any beginner takes it a few times after their lesson and then moves on to Salamander or the mid station down from Thunderdraft. Seems like a terrible waste to run that thing mid week afternoons.

Timberline must not be too strapped for cash because they replaced all the double chairs on Queen with triples. (any update on if they ever actually put 3 people on it during actual operation without throwing people everywhere?) That had to be expensive and, in my opinion, a huge waste of money that could have been spent on snowmaking or a terrain park.

Anyway, enough of my comments after complementing your final summary

Skiers like Bode Miller got to be good as they are by skiing the boiler plate we have here in the East. Skiers in the west are use to the "Hero" snow they get out there. I've been out West when all the locals were complaining about all the "ice". I couldn't find any ice, just some hard pack. In the East we'd call those conditions "Packed Powder"

In regards to OTW, I skied it last Friday and it was a blast. On a nonpowder day, I would have skied it nonstop or at least until my legs fell off. Sure beats doing groomers all day.

kwillg,

Well said. I love skiing and appreciate the good conditions when it comes along.

JR, To answer your question on the silver queen double, er triple which is really only a 2 1/2. The theory behind going from a double to a triple was sound. It increased the uphill capacity by 20%. However reality set in... the chairs were purchased, I believe at a special price because they don't fit regular adults. If you are over 5-10" and wear a helment, you cannot put the safety bar down without getting bonked by the bar especially inth emiddle seat. If there are 3 "large" riders it is a very tight fit accross the chair's width. Last year, they installed the seat padding backwards on the chairs and riders felt as though they were falling off. T-line put them on right this year. It seems as though the chair runs slower, but according to an industry lift rep, the max speed that the queen's chair can run safely is 450'/minute. So, given all things, the lines are shorter with the "wider double" as my wife calls it, hence more runs , and better skiing. We pushed 20 runs in one day back in January . Could have done 4 more by starting at 8 and skiing all the way till 4:30, but beer o'clock called .

The theory behind a moon landing in 1969 was sound but it couldn't happen with the equipment they had

I don't think I've ever seen the Queen open. I was always there on a weekday or a slow weekend. If it does help with lines a little I guess it was worth it regardless of the kindergarten chairs, I just didn't expect it to help given what I'd heard about them. I figured half of the people lined up as triples would fall all over the place with the small chairs and cause so many stopages it would actually hurt the speed and capacity.

Skiing steep moguled runs out west (especially after a good snow) is much easier than skiing say Lower Shays in its typical condition (icy moguls). Number one the snow is slower and easier to grip an edge on, and number two it doesn't hurt in the least to fall. It's like falling onto a nice down mattress out west. In WV you fall, bounce, and slide.

Actually, we talked them into doing a singles line at the queen on president's weekend, and they were filling all chairs. That singles line was the best kept secret for all of 2 hours!

Yeah, me complaining about a lack of grooming. What's the world coming to?

There's a time and place for everything though, right? If a run is supposed to be groomed it ought to be groomed, especially if it's marked as "groomed." Ungroomed in freeze-thaw cycles is an EXCELLENT proving ground for practicing (because if you can ski a frozen mogul field, you can rest assured that you can ski *most* of what's out west), but Almost Heaven as an "expert's practice" run was a bit much. OTW was fun for what it was worth, but frankly if they're going to cut the width of the run to 10-15 feet I'd rather the other 30-40 feet be converted into a glade rather than a migrating gray whale pod caught in some "Day After Tomorrow" freeze-up.

Hmmmn...Rodger Z. Good point. As the saying goes, if it's white (or in your case gray) just ski it!

Hey Z-Man, we'll have to catch up some time for some turns on the local slopes. Maybe next year's DCSki T-Line gathering.

Just call me Ahab. Aaaaaaaar!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey Capn, Whales in leisure suits??? Too much free beer?, crush says hello

Roger Z, That groomed ungroomed thing you had going made me think someone hacked your password.!!

Yeah, not only is the grooming insufficient, but the mud they use for your face in the day spa is just AWFUL... and don't even get me started on the valet service. I'd order a martini to calm myself, but they make them so DRY... sheesh...

Did I accidentally stumble into the bearded spock universe?