how about a DCski academy?
April 13, 2006
53 posts
19 users
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Those of you who follow Epic Ski forums know they have some great ski academies every season. This past season, there was an East event (in Stowe I think) and a West event (at Snowbird I believe). It's a combination of skiers and instructors, which ends up creating a very fun and effective group ski lesson (with other stuff too). It's targeted to advancing upper level skiers. I haven't been, but maybe someone else who has can share some details.
Anyway, I was thinking -- I wonder if we could set something like this up for the mid-A, and maybe it would be better run by DCski, since we have more locals than Epic Ski. Anybody have thoughts on this? I am thinking a 3-4 day event at one of the bigger resorts, such as Snowshoe. The Western territory trails would be a natural place for upper level skiers to gather for some turns and technique. We'd probably want a 5:1 and no more than a 8:1 ratio of skiers to instructors, so success will depend on a few instructors joining in (they get paid obviously).
Thoughts? Comments? Ideas?
Craig
Do you know any more about the model used by epic to finance and run their events?
make is some time around christmas and new year and I will be game. I dont know if I should teach or be a student though.
Sounds like a plan - I'd be game!
If there would be any teaching of beginning to mid-level snowboarders count me in. I'd love to teach that. Although if there are any advanced snowboarding lessons, I'm game for being a student.
JimK,
"Epic" at epicski ran the Stowe event this year. You can ask him directly or I can ask him if you like.
I roomed with Epic at Pro Jam the week before the event and watched him sweat the last minute details. It seemed he had a little leeway to run in the red, but that most of what he did was simply get the resort to host the event at group rates (or maybe even discounted group rates - Epic works at Stowe) and then confirm possible clinic leaders with groups as people signed up. They also got meeting rooms in the hotel thrown in with their group rate. Epic seemed to have a good formula for calculating how many people actually sign up vs those that express interest in going. I think Epic also got some sponsorhip money kicked in. I do know that they had to get insurance to run the event. I got the sense that the first ESA was really done more as a learning experience based on enthusiastic faith that it would work out.
You might want to consider cohosting it with Epicski to help get you started.
In terms of size, 20-25 people seemed about right to get group sizes in the 4-6 range with a decent ability split. With a good group you could go as high as 8 people without suffering too much, but the 5 per group number seems to work best.
You also might want to consider using Mid Atlantic local (i.e. cheaper) clinicians. This might allow you to run the event with less risk of running in the red. It seems that all of the EpicSki clinicians do it as a favor for the "celebrity" host.
Craig,
The West event was held at Snowbird this year.
I'm with you bawalker, I'd like to teach beginning to mid but I'd love to have someone school me in park and pipe. I think I have carving pretty well down but if someone could show me why bumps are fun that would be interesting too
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I'm with you bawalker, I'd like to teach beginning to mid but I'd love to have someone school me in park and pipe. I think I have carving pretty well down but if someone could show me why bumps are fun that would be interesting too
I'm the same way (though I bet a good instructor could even pick apart my carving). I could use some bump coaching, and general off-piste coaching. Powder is fun/easy for me, but we get it so rarely out here I doubt my skills are really that good. So, instruction outside the carving envelope would be my main interest. I consider myself a solid level 8 skier when carving; for everything else I am not as advanced.
The park and pipe is where I really need work at. Especially the pipe. I can handle smaller jumps on those tiny terrain parks along side green level slopes. Maybe a rail as well, but beyond that I need someone there who knows what they are doing so they can teach me. When it comes to the pipe, I'm clueless. I'm not sure how to approach the wall, ride up the wall, transition and back down.
Carving is something I feel like I'm starting to get really good at. Give me a wide slope and I can GS turns down it with my whole body outstretched and fingers touching the uphill slope. Handling more steeper and narrower terrain is something I also need work in too.
Actually pipe is an easy one to get started in. I would venture it's easier to start in than park. Next year try this, if you remember. Ride into the pipe but take your time we'll do this in baby steps, turn heelside up one of the walls and when your speed has more or less evaporated do a little jump turn and ride away. The key to the jump is to turn your shoulder the direction you want to go then jump and suck your legs up beneath you and keep them there until you come around. Stick the landing, wash rinse repeat. The key is start really small and slowly build. On the face of the wall let the board run flat. Do your edging in the transition.
I'll definately remember that next season. I was always told numerous things from just anyone anyone and everyone. Most of those who told me how to ride a pipe was to edge it up and down the walls which didn't make sense when i heard it.
Craig, sounds like a conversation JimK and I had this past January. ESA sounds like a great opportunity, but their community is a good bit larger than ours. ESA is also expensive. I'm not commenting on the value, just saying that 800 bucks for four days clinic/lift tickets is a substantial investment.
I'd love to participate in a mid-atlantic academy. Don't know if Scott would be willing/able to sponsor it but we could put something like that together on the Forum. Took a one day clinic at Tline this year that cost $65 plus lift ticket and i would expect we could set up a private clinic with divisions for alpine, snowboard and telemark for two or three days if enough were interested. How to decide where to have it and how to promote it?
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Craig, sounds like a conversation JimK and I had this past January. ESA sounds like a great opportunity, but their community is a good bit larger than ours. ESA is also expensive. I'm not commenting on the value, just saying that 800 bucks for four days clinic/lift tickets is a substantial investment.
I'd love to participate in a mid-atlantic academy. Don't know if Scott would be willing/able to sponsor it but we could put something like that together on the Forum. Took a one day clinic at Tline this year that cost $65 plus lift ticket and i would expect we could set up a private clinic with divisions for alpine, snowboard and telemark for two or three days if enough were interested. How to decide where to have it and how to promote it?
I agree the Epic academy is on the pricey side, though folks who have attended rave about it. I am sure we could do a great academy for a lot less money. It would be interesting to know how the funds are utilized in the Epic academies -- maybe that would help tune a less expensive academy that is still a good value.
Personally, I would prefer a mix of lessons and regular skiing. In other words, morning lessons and afternoon skiing, or some mix of days on / days off. I think it would be more interesting that way, and give people a chance to practice concepts outside of "class" and have fun.
As for where -- I think Snowshoe is a local possibility, but not the only choice in the area. We'd probably want a place with decent on-mountain lodging so folks would have convenient access to the slopes. Maybe a place with restaurants for a group dinner or two. Etc... I didn't think of it initially, but obviously we'd have to do it at a ski area that allows outside instruction, or arrange to use the onsite staff. I think it would be more desirable to get instructors who are members of DCski or EpicSki, and who choose to participate because they like the idea. That would also allow us some choice in who teaches, rather than taking chances with resort staff. Obviously, the location would need long enough trails and advanced terrain suitable for good coaching and skiing.
It would be really great if we could plan a trip outside the region -- perhaps to gain access to better terrain and better snow/conditions, but the travel expenses and time off from work might be issues for many of us. And of course, it will depend on weather!! If traveling, obvious choices would be Vermont (say Sugarbush or Stowe, with Smuggs, Jay and MRG as nearby side trips) or Utah (due to the easy air access to SLC with numerous great mountains nearby).
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I didn't think of it initially, but obviously we'd have to do it at a ski area that allows outside instruction, or arrange to use the onsite staff. I think it would be more desirable to get instructors who are members of DCski or EpicSki, and who choose to participate because they like the idea. That would also allow us some choice in who teaches, rather than taking chances with resort staff.
This should be possible. I don't know what arrangements were made if any but several years ago I went on a couple of bus trips with the DC ski club and they always offered free lessons with PSIA instructors that were club members. They even had certified examiners and would offer on slope training for folks wanting to become instructors. There was a cost for it as you got classroom stuff as well including manuals etc.
Cheers,
Bill
We could maybe move this around a bit if the instructors were part of the posse instead of relying on a particular resort, different resort every day?
Maybe a mentoring program would be a better idea. We have a huge mix of skill sets between us to draw on so it doesn't need to be formal and super coordinated. If we use the forum to hook up someone who needs help in a certain area with someone who has those skills and can pass it on. At that point it's just an informal meeting at a local resort for a few hours every so often. You still get the skills you need without the headache and costs.
Tossing out some low cost scenarios:
-early in January 2006 I got in an inexpensive Thursday and Friday at timberline, WV and paid a grand total of $5 for two days of lift tics on crowd-free slopes, due to ski shop "demo" day prices. Could have easily made that a three or four day trip by hitting Canaan Valley the next two days.
-that exact pairing of demo days may not align next year, but maybe something similar, or how about the annual Wisp birthday special in mid-December when they offer two days of tickets (Sun and Mon) for something like $7 total. Believe you can ski the preceding Saturday for a good rate also. Need help from mother nature for this date.
-both the wisp deal and ski shop demo days occur early in season, an optimal time to receive instruction
-If we take the cost of lifts out of the equation, particularly with no minimum group size required, it could make it simpler for many folks to jump on the bandwagon late in the game.
-Could we get volunteer instructors from the DCSki faithful? Or I'm sure get some good referrals for instructors to employ at a given resort?
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-both the wisp deal and ski shop demo days occur early in season, an optimal time to receive instruction
I'd recommend against taking lessons and demoing skis on the same day; too many variables.
I wouldn't advise on Wisp's birthday weekend. In the last two years I've tried to hit that up, this past year roughly 10 trails or so were open. Mostly green's and blues while the preceeding year the intial birthday weekend was so warm that Wisp moved it to March.
Based around our two past winters in their being abnormally warm temps either at the start or mid parts of winter, having a ski academy at a smaller lower elevation hill like Wisp will be a gamble. Although I love the atmosphere at Wisp, that can't make snowclouds form when needed.
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-Could we get volunteer instructors from the DCSki faithful?
I can tentatively volunteer, subject to timing. Mid-December is a bad time.
I'll volunteer to instruct. I'm not a certified instructor anything but I've helped friends a lot from standing up and riding to the nuances of forward lean. Like I said in an earlier post though I'd like to do it as a mentor thing where if two or three people need some help with something we would get together for a day or two and work on them.
I've taught kids to ski and it went well, but I think we should limit the academy to certified instructors only. Best to leave it to the pros. I realized that when I attempted to teach my wife to ski. Certified strangers are the best ski instructors
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I realized that when I attempted to teach my wife to ski. Certified strangers are the best ski instructors
Amen to that brother! And I am a certified instructor.
I volunteer. However, my knowledge is best for those just beginning to ski blacks. However, I know there are more of us out there. I've had too many conversations with my fellow Liberty instructors so I know they're lurking.
The cardinal rule of instructing anyone is never ever try to instruct your significant other. It will end badly.
That's why next season, when my girlfriend comes in from Michigan, she will be learning under a trained instructor at Wisp or Whitetail. I am making sure things start off on the right foot there.
Craig, This thing could happen
. Thanks for volunteering Rusty & Roy. Now we need snowboard and telemark volunteers. Could this be an official DCSki event if we interested instructors from several areas and moved the thing around a bit? Right now we have Rusty/ Whitetail and Roy/ Liberty, is the fact they're involved good promotion, provided by DCSki, for their mountain & school? Set the program up with half day with an instructor(s) and half day for free skiing/mentoring? What days of the week, how many days? Any Lurking Instructors out there?
Who's serious about attending this, when and where?
Discuss
Jimmy,
Looking good, and after the acadamy we DCSkiers go on a trip to Utah in January to try out our new found skills!
The Colonel
Sounds like a great idea; I would be interested. Haven't taken any lessons since I learned to ski 5 years ago.
We really should do this as a grass roots program. If we try to get the mountains participation and involvement, I think we will hit many roadblocks. If we are bringing lots of people to a mountain to "teach", they are going to want to use their own instructors, charge for the lessons, and CYA because of insurance reasons. For example, even though we are sister resorts, I don't think Rusty could teach at Liberty and I couldn't teach at Whitetail without special permissions.
When we do this, we'll just have to name a resort, show up, and break ourselves off in groups as needed. However, if we get 20 people, we can still get a group rate
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We really should do this as a grass roots program. If we try to get the mountains participation and involvement, I think we will hit many roadblocks. If we are bringing lots of people to a mountain to "teach", they are going to want to use their own instructors, charge for the lessons, and CYA because of insurance reasons. For example, even though we are sister resorts, I don't think Rusty could teach at Liberty and I couldn't teach at Whitetail without special permissions. ...
Along those lines (particularly the insurance and liability issue), this can't be an official DCSki effort, either. Readers of DCSki are welcome to organize this on their own, but it can't be officially endorsed by DCSki and shouldn't have "DCSki" in the name. That raises too many issues that I'm not in a position to handle. (DCSki is only an on-line publication.)
I think the idea of a grass roots ski academy is a great idea, though.
Sounds like the vol. instructors should talk it up amongst themselves. If they can settle on a convenient date and venue a few weeks in advance I bet a number of students/participants would like to jump onboard, including myself. By the way, very commendable on the part of Rusty and Roy to volunteer to instruct.
If it's a grass roots thing, then I've got a problem. I need to have insurance coverage to be able to do this. That's one of the things that Epic did.
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If it's a grass roots thing, then I've got a problem. I need to have insurance coverage to be able to do this. That's one of the things that Epic did.
I'm afraid DCSki is simply not going to be in a position to provide this. As many of you know, DCSki is a side effort of mine and I'm constantly struggling to find time to keep the site going. I need to keep things as simple as possible and keep DCSki's efforts focused solely on journalism.
It would probably be best to approach a local resort and see if something can be arranged within the auspices of their school. I wish DCSki could provide some kind of official support but I really can't.
Just out of curiosity, what would the total cost of something like this be?
I volunteer my self to teach skiing, but I dont think I am leaving Utah right now.
Bruce,
Cost is very dependent on how the event is run. Epic Ski Academy costs run on the high side because they used top talent and paid for expenses and paid for insurance.
Perhaps some of the local area clubs such as SCWDC/Fagowees might be able to help as an umbrella organisation?
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I volunteer my self to teach skiing, but I dont think I am leaving Utah right now.
'K can I book you for March '07?
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Bruce,
Cost is very dependent on how the event is run. Epic Ski Academy costs run on the high side because they used top talent and paid for expenses and paid for insurance.
There's probably something to be said for that. I imagine there's a baseline level we won't be able to go below, but some economy ought to be possible.
Regarding the insurance -- who is it for and who does it protect? We all venture to local resorts and ski on our own dime, at our own risk, with (hopefully) our own health insurance on a regular basis. Now say we do that AND a bunch of us meet up for group skiing, again not out of the ordinary. Now say there is some instruction thrown in the mix. At what point does the extra insurance become a requirement? I assume to protect the instructors?
I wonder if the trick is to avoid formal arrangements, such that there is never a legal issue?
Thats kind of what I was thinking. I don't expect to have to carry insurance if I'm riding with my friends and I show them how to tweak something in their technique.
OH Insurance liability laywers no onwe said it but that's
this is getting, too complicated. All this is about is the skiing/sliding/riding/partypalooza, maybe getting the chance to ski with someone a bit better than you, maybe not but it's skiing, lift ur heel or ride it however you get down the hill
. How about we take bushwack's "Skiers Three" and arrange a clinic at each, couldn't cost more than 100 bucks a day for clinic/lift ticket. Rusty, Roy, Bushwack, professional courtesies???, Tucker are you in for this??
What about the ladies, haven't heard form any of you yet, wanna have sum fun?? Bring your own guy or take your chances
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I like the old-school Gorillaz, Coldplay ..
There are already several all day tele-clinics during the season as well as all day womens clinics for tele, alpine, and snowboard. The days consist of skiing and riding with highly experienced, certified instructors(at a low student to instructor ratio) and is usually concluded with a gathering over some apre ski drinks, munchies and good conversation. Timberline ski school has put these on for years now. I've taught one or two days in the tele clinics and usually drop in to ride or ski with the groups when I can. I always try to make the apre ski get together.
But there aren't really any all day snowboard or alpine clinics open to men scheduled for next season at timberline.
If there is enough interest, and there sounds like there is, how about this: A one day clinic for alpine, snowboard, or tele men and womens that includes a full day instruction catered to different ability levels and interest. Of course there would be cost but it would be reasonable (along the lines Jimmy is suggesting) and could include a lift ticket. If you are interested let me know and I can work on possibly setting it up for next season.
I would need to know what you all are looking for late season vs early season(I suggest late January early February but it also depends on what events we have scheduled already). I would also be looking for suggestions for a name of the event. Dc Ski academy sounds like a good fit to me but Scott might not be down with that, but maybe he would if it was run through and organized ski school...I don't know.
As far as programs that are already set up I'd like to promote the Snowboard Team I set up two seasons ago at Timberline. It's for kids ages 17 and under boys and girls. The aim is to get younger riders together so they can learn to ride the entire mountain more effectively and throw down in the parks. It has also been a great way for kids to meet other kids to ride with. It has been a huge success and the kids have had a blast. We have ten year olds on the team who after coaching were able ot rip up Off the Wall (before it was flat like everything else). We hope to see participation grow next year so I'll be pumping it up again before the next season on this sight. Anyway here is the deal on the Team we practice/train on Sundays from 9:30 to 12:30 and usually ride together whenever any of the team members are at the mountain. We try to ride all the terrain park competitions at Timberline but participation in events is up to individual members. The cost for the entire season of training is $200 and with that registration team members can get a discount season pass for around $85. Team member to Coach ratio during Sunday's sessions have been around 3 to 1.
Tucker - I would very much be interested in something like this. I'm a 27 year old snowboarder that got into this sport late (when I was 23/24) so the learning curve has been a bit longer for me than if I was a 10 year old. However I love it and if there was a snowboard team for anyone in my age group, I'd instantly join. The area that I'm needing help with is in the park/pipe, and double blacks. Currently I can fly down off of Upper Almost Heaven and Upper Dew Drop and be able to work on carving pretty well with some nice wide GS style turns... as long as the slope isn't crowded. But fine tuning that for higher speed control on Thundestruck, OTW, and the drop are things I really want to learn.
If you start up a sponsored program that includes any of that, count me in.
I've been following this thread and I think Tucker has the right idea. Perhaps T-line will set up a special program for DCSki. That way you avoid all the hassles that you get into when pros attempt to charge money for lessons at mountains that aren't their employers.
I've attended several Epic events, ESA1 in 2003 (their first), Eastern events at Stowe in which several coaches and members organized through Epic (this season the Stowe event was an official Epic Ski LLC event). I videotaped classes for the Stowe event in 2004. The biggest issues involved in this type of program are securing permission from a resort to allow guest instructors to teach on their mountain. What the host mountain received was the business of about 30-40 clients that otherwise would ski somewhere else. The host mountain offers group rate tickets to the group as well as discount lodging. In addition one or more of the guest coaches conducts clinics for the host ski school. Liability for the event is covered by Epic Ski LLC in addition to the normal liability covered by the host resort.
The all day clinics are formal classes and conducted as such. I'm not saying they're not fun, I'm saying that the focus is on instruction as opposed to free skiing although free skiing is a big part of it.
This type of undertaking is time consuming for the organizers and costly to do right. Organizing clinics through an existing ski school would be so much easier. With enough interest and the right timing we could request that all available PSIA level 3, clinic leaders or Examiners on staff be made available in addition to members here or other favorites.
Another option would be to contact Epic Ski and ask when they might get around to doing a Mid-Atlantic event.
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At what point does the extra insurance become a requirement? I assume to protect the instructors?
I wonder if the trick is to avoid formal arrangements, such that there is never a legal issue?
Skier219,
Unfortunately in this day and age professional instructors need to have liability insurance for when they are teaching. Even if we are volunteering our time, once it's called a "lesson" we are dead meat in court if something goes wrong. Having sat through one civil trial, I've heard the term "standard of care" often enough to know that it's possible for me to do nothing wrong and still end up losing everything. Having trust in your fellow man will not protect your life savings when an accident happens. There's no legal trick around this (and that includes signed waivers up the wazoo). The only thing that protects friends when teaching friends is that the negiglence standard for "should have known better" is lower.
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Another option would be to contact Epic Ski and ask when they might get around to doing a Mid-Atlantic event.
I asked Epic of epicski. He has wondered about doing a midatlantic event, but is concerned about the odds of success and the quality of clinicians. First off, the Epic brand name needs to have the top pros involved and small group sizes. Someone local would need to organize and we would need to have some way to guarantee the event would not run in the red. The last couple of academy events lost money. When I mentioned using local talent, he suggested that I open a thread instead of trying to run a specific Epic Academy.
Rusty, I've been curious about insurance for ski instructors, more about workers compensation, never thought about liability until it came up in this thread. I'd assume if you are "on duty" at Whitetail and get hurt, your hospitalization insurance would look to some type of workers comp coverage to pay the claim? Does the resort pay for your insurance?
If I get hurt while teaching, I'm covered by Workmen's Comp for medical costs (which the resort pays for). But the procedure is that I have to use certain doctors. I'd probably use my own day job medical coverage just for the convenience of not having to go to Hagerstown. What's more important to me is that the resort pays for the liability insurance. If one of my students names me in a suit for any reason, the resorts insurance will pay for my defense and any judgements. At least I believe that's how it works.
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Having trust in your fellow man will not protect your life savings when an accident happens.
Sad but true. It seems that for a lot of people (and they know who they are), an accident is always someone else's fault and it's time to sue.
As far as getting hurt at work while teaching, we are covered under worker's comp, only while teaching. If we freeski that day, and get hurt, there is no coverage. So I show up for work and only under certain conditions am I covered by worker's comp. What about walking down the stairs in ski boots while going to lunch? What if I fall? Who covers me now? If anyone ever pushed it, where would the courts draw the line?
Anyway, it's sad that we even have to have this discussion just to have a fun ski day and make new friends.
