Rape of Hidden Valley
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snowsmith - DCSki Supporter
February 28, 2006
Member since 03/15/2004 🔗
1,363 posts
I remember Mountain Masher complaining about logging at Blue Knob. Well MM, you want to see some devastation caused by logging, take a look at the Alpine Woods are of HV. It was dam near clear cut right up to back decks of the houses. Now why do we go to resorts and buy real estate at resorts. Because we want to enjoy the natural beauty - right? Not at Hidden Valley. Us Hidden Valley folks would rather climb over thousands of branches and other logging waste as we renew ourselves in a heavily logged forest. What a brilliant approach by resort management!! No wonder their going bankrupt. What idiots!
kwillg6
March 1, 2006
Member since 01/18/2005 🔗
2,034 posts
Nearly eight years ago, Timberline did a selective cut in what was then Cherry Bowl, rendering it unskiable. That area was one of their signature areas of double black glades. All ruined for a few thousand dollars of cherry logs..... Some owners/managers can't see the forest for the trees, then cut them down for a short term gain. I agree that in the smaller, cash starved ski areas, the owners make stupid choices. But then again, they may have little choice if they need an instant infusion of $$$$.
It's just sad.
snowsmith - DCSki Supporter
March 3, 2006
Member since 03/15/2004 🔗
1,363 posts
Look for an article in the Johnstown Tribune-Democrat this Sunday on what's going on at Hidden Valley.
rdytooski
March 5, 2006
Member since 11/16/2005 🔗
40 posts
The article pertaining to the logging
http://www.tribune-democrat.com/local/local_story_063234621.html

we need to figure out how to get this posted so that when people are looking for the kettlers to build a house this shows up in search
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wolverine
March 5, 2006
Member since 08/26/2005 🔗
113 posts
Do you think the Kettlers have a contract with Intrawest to provide timber for all of the new luxury condos being built at Snowshoe?
BushwackerinPA
March 6, 2006
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
and between wrangler and comet and above voyager, is some of the area were you cna see this going on from the ski slopes.
cmk
June 5, 2006
Member since 06/5/2006 🔗
5 posts
you can't have everything. if you want new slopes you need to chop down the trees. if you want $ you need to ct down the trees. in the long run it's really not that bad. and your situation could be a whole lot worse.
Skihead
June 5, 2006
Member since 11/16/2005 🔗
30 posts

Quote:

you can't have everything. if you want new slopes you need to chop down the trees. if you want $ you need to ct down the trees. in the long run it's really not that bad. and your situation could be a whole lot worse.




Get real. What slopes are going where the trees used to be? Oh, and certainly the logging is not so bad...it could be a strip mine like on the other side of the resort. One who invested in HV should certainly be grateful that things are not so bad and they have just strip mines and logging, rather then lets say a toxic waste dump.
Mountain Masher
June 6, 2006
Member since 03/13/2004 🔗
541 posts
Yes, I've seen the devastation at Hidden Valley. Fortunately, the devastation isn't as expansive as BK and shouldn't do a lot of damage to the watershed (as was (is) the case at BK). However, the logging at HV has destroyed the atmosphere and beauty of the resort, which, of course, hurts property values. The motivation for the logging was probably the same as at BK. When the owner(s) of a resort start to think about selling, they often try to remove anything of value first. And, should there be some valuable timber within the resort, it's often harvested at this point. That's how I knew that the owners of BK were considering selling, they started removing ALL of the trees that were worth anything. This type of behavior (in my opinion) is very bad because it hurts the property owners and those who truly care about the resort. And, in BK's case, this approach has back-fired because all of the logging damage there has likely made BK ski area next to impossible to sell.

The underlying problem to what has happened at BK and HV is that PA has very low environmental standards, in fact, much lower than the other states that comprise the Mid-Atlantic. And, worse yet, PA often refuses to enforce it's own environmental laws currently on the books. One would think that there would be more outrage by the people of PA and the PA media; however, extensive environmental damage is common-place in many areas of PA and most citizens [who live in (or near) those areas] are oblivious to it. Also, I can remember when (then) PA Gov. Tom Ridge was asked something that related to the environment, he responded that PA was "a proud industrial state". To illustrate the difference between PA and other states, there's NO CHANCE that the level of damage done to BK could have happened in Maryland or Virginia (officials from both of those states have confirmed that for me). When I look at the care and sensitivity that were taken in the development of places like Wintergreen and Bryce, I often wonder what might-have-been at BK.
snowsmith - DCSki Supporter
June 6, 2006
Member since 03/15/2004 🔗
1,363 posts
CMK - you are obviously the first Kettler to respond to the 40 or so pages of complaints on this web site about Hidden Valley management. I don't really care if Clarence Kettler is a Democrat, a Republican or a Hotentot for that matter. He obviously had a vision for the resort and made that vision a reality. That is the reason that folks own real estate at Hidden Valley - the land planning, the architecture, the preservation of vegetation (excluding the recent logging), the walking paths. I think Kettler Bros. should have won an award for the resort design. Not that it is without flaws. There is not connection between the ski lodge, the conference center, the Inn and the golf course. These facilities could feed off each other if they were somehow connected. And, Let's face it, the ski area is not that good, even if the facilities were impecably maintained, which they are not. However, it is a great family ski area, much better than 7Springs.
When I first started coming to Hidden Vally, only 5 years ago, the place had more going on and had not quite reached the decrepped condition that now exists. We had a great restuarant (Hearthside), the snow making was better, grooming was excellent, the Sports Club was active and used by the residents, there was a spa and hair dresser, etc. Since then, the place has continued to slide downhill. The logging, which was done to get some cash and has absolutely nothing to do with expansion of the ski area or any planned new development, has galvanized the residents at the resort and they are angry.I was told by a Board member that the contract with the logger specified maximum yield and no cleanup. Thus the unsitely mess that we have right up to residents back doors. What a way to treat the folks who spend money at your business. Shamefull is the word most people use.
Since you are in tune with what's happening, maybe you can let us know what happened to the Resorts finances. Why were are the potential buyers of the resort scared off? Why isn't the Resort selling season ski passes when EVERY ski resort in the nation had their's on sale at the end of March? Why can't they maintain any of the buildings or facilities owned by the Resort? What is going to happen to the Conference Center, Sports Center and Inn? Is it going to sit there and rot like the tennis courts across from the Inn? Why did the Kettler's sell the property across the road from the resort to a strip miner?
Help us understand why the resort has gone into the toilet?

Mountain Masher - I've been to BK and still have not seen the devastation that you indicate. The logging at HV is far worse than anything I've seen at BK and it right in peoples back yard with all of the logging debris.
Mountain Masher
June 6, 2006
Member since 03/13/2004 🔗
541 posts
snowsmith, I'll be posting some pictures (that were taken within the past 2 weeks) of the lake area at BK. Also, while looking at the pictures of the lake, which will be on my webshots acct. you can look at many other pictures of BK. The problem areas at BK are as follows: the area near the top of the mountain, where most of the trees have been removed over the years for one reason or another, including the 2nd and 3rd snowmaking impoundments; several of the glades and ski slopes show extensive erosion; and the largest problem area is where clear-cut logging occurred below the ski slopes (but still within the resort) along 2 fragile streams. The total acreage of environmental damage at BK is close to 1,000. However, to see much of it, you must hike along Big Lick Branch and South Poplar Run and along the steep ridges that tower above the aforementioned streams. From the streams you can see, among other things, several huge eroded gashes that run some 800 vertical feet straight up the ridges, including one of the ski slopes called the "Ditch Glade" (it's shown on the ski trial map and located near Stembogan).
BushwackerinPA
June 8, 2006
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
Quote:

Yes, I've seen the devastation at Hidden Valley. Fortunately, the devastation isn't as expansive as BK and shouldn't do a lot of damage to the watershed (as was (is) the case at BK). However, the logging at HV has destroyed the atmosphere and beauty of the resort, which, of course, hurts property values. The motivation for the logging was probably the same as at BK. When the owner(s) of a resort start to think about selling, they often try to remove anything of value first. And, should there be some valuable timber within the resort, it's often harvested at this point. That's how I knew that the owners of BK were considering selling, they started removing ALL of the trees that were worth anything. This type of behavior (in my opinion) is very bad because it hurts the property owners and those who truly care about the resort. And, in BK's case, this approach has back-fired because all of the logging damage there has likely made BK ski area next to impossible to sell.

The underlying problem to what has happened at BK and HV is that PA has very low environmental standards, in fact, much lower than the other states that comprise the Mid-Atlantic. And, worse yet, PA often refuses to enforce it's own environmental laws currently on the books. One would think that there would be more outrage by the people of PA and the PA media; however, extensive environmental damage is common-place in many areas of PA and most citizens [who live in (or near) those areas] are oblivious to it. Also, I can remember when (then) PA Gov. Tom Ridge was asked something that related to the environment, he responded that PA was "a proud industrial state". To illustrate the difference between PA and other states, there's NO CHANCE that the level of damage done to BK could have happened in Maryland or Virginia (officials from both of those states have confirmed that for me). When I look at the care and sensitivity that were taken in the development of places like Wintergreen and Bryce, I often wonder what might-have-been at BK.




The area I saw is going to be eventually new slopes, no I feel for the people that lost trees in there backyard but maybe posting a on Web Forums isnt going to get your trees back.
Mountain Masher
June 8, 2006
Member since 03/13/2004 🔗
541 posts
I totally disagree with your assessment that some logged areas at HV are going to be new ski slopes. First of all, most of the areas that were logged wouldn't make good ski slopes based on the layout of the terrain and the vertical. Second, why would the owners of HV be trying to create new ski slopes, when the resort is in financial trouble? That just doesn't make sense! Again, the REAL reason that the logging took place was to pick up some easy CASH!!!
nogoodnik
June 8, 2006
Member since 11/7/2005 🔗
49 posts
At the last board meeting, Scanlan made it quite clear HV may consider additional logging in the future although no specifics were given. The patches of woods on the existing slopes are some of the few that haven't been logged...yet. Everything they do seems to be about short term cash. All with total disregard for the impact on the resort, those who use the resort and the planned community around the resort.
Mountain Masher
June 8, 2006
Member since 03/13/2004 🔗
541 posts
Logging at ski areas (for the sole purpose of picking up some easy cash) nearly always results in a loss of business, and, for good reason. People go to ski resorts year-round to enjoy the beauty of the mountains and to ESCAPE things like traffic, development, environmental destruction and strip-malls. When a resort owner is so petty and short-sighted as to stoop to something like destructive logging, people "vote with their feet" and head for "greener" resorts.
BushwackerinPA
June 8, 2006
Member since 12/9/2004 🔗
649 posts
Quote:

I totally disagree with your assessment that some logged areas at HV are going to be new ski slopes. First of all, most of the areas that were logged wouldn't make good ski slopes based on the layout of the terrain and the vertical. Second, why would the owners of HV be trying to create new ski slopes, when the resort is in financial trouble? That just doesn't make sense! Again, the REAL reason that the logging took place was to pick up some easy CASH!!!




the logging makes money but doesnt make sense to log where ski slope will exist eventaully and i am telling about the logging I saw above voyager. FYI there is excactly one person on this board who knows more than anyone else about all the Hidden valley subjects they'll tell you eventually what the real deal is I hope.
snowsmith - DCSki Supporter
June 8, 2006
Member since 03/15/2004 🔗
1,363 posts
I would like to know who posted the 'Somerset Dailey American' editorial written by the logging company who did the logging on the HV Foundation Website. You would think that the logging was a wonderful gift from Resort Management, saving homeowners from large trees crashing onto their homes and giving us a wonderful healthy forest for the future. Editorials like this have no place on the website. The website has a message forum for editorial comments. And folks like us who post on the forum actually have to give our names. The chicken shits who posted the editorial and the the other opinion piece about the resignation of the Recreation Committee chairman didn't have the balls to put their name on their pieces. More disgraceful behavior.
Mountain Masher
June 8, 2006
Member since 03/13/2004 🔗
541 posts
Nothing's new under the sun! The same type of bogus PR campaign was launched when Blue Knob started it's massive logging operation a number of years ago. Someone spoke to the property owners (about how wonderful the logging was going to be for the environment as well as the skiing) during the annual BK property owners meeting. Also, a couple of the local newspapers ran stories about how good the logging was going to be (when completed) for Blue Knob. The news stories weren't the least bit objective and, more or less, functioned as "spin" for BK resort. Fortunately, the Sierra Club was able to get a couple of editorials (highly critical of the logging at BK) printed in one of the local newspapers, of course the logging continued until completion. Needless to say, nothing at BK has worked out the way that all of the spin and PR had predicted. At this point I can't find anyone who believes that things improved at BK after the logging was completed.
bousquet19 - DCSki Supporter
June 20, 2006
Member since 02/23/2006 🔗
701 posts
Quote:

Logging at ski areas (for the sole purpose of picking up some easy cash) nearly always results in a loss of business, and, for good reason. People go to ski resorts year-round to enjoy the beauty of the mountains and to ESCAPE things like traffic, development, environmental destruction and strip-malls. When a resort owner is so petty and short-sighted as to stoop to something like destructive logging, people "vote with their feet" and head for "greener" resorts.




Amen.

Woody
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