Snowshoe's new High Speed Quad Announced
January 11, 2006
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I think most of us have heard about this in the master plan for the resort... but in any case:
Snowshoe Mountain Announces Plans for the 2006-2007 season!
Snowshoe is excited to announce a new high-speed detachable quad lift that will service the Widowmaker Slope System and adjoining trails for the 2006-2007 season! The lift's location will be only steps away from the new Soaring Eagle Lodge, Snowshoe's premier mountain address at the resort's Top of the World area. Soaring Eagle Lodge is going to be unmatched atop the mountain with ski in/ski out access, amazing views and Snowshoe's most spacious homes.
Installation of the lift will begin this summer making it operational for the 2006-2007 ski season. The new lift will be constructed by Doppemayer CTEC and will reduce the lift ride from the bottom of Widowmaker slope from 8-10 minutes to less than three minutes traveling at 450 feet per minute!
The uphill capacity of the lift will be over 2,400 skiers per hour compared to 1,500 skiers per hour with the current fixed grip, Widowmaker Lift.
Soaring Eagle Lodge's guests and owners will be able to take advantage of the new lift and its related trails right outside their doorstep. Of course the new lift is all the talk on the mountain so for more information about Soaring Eagle Lodge and the new lift, contact Snowshoe's Discovery Center at: 888-489-1943.
With the announcement of the new lift and one of the best seasons in recent memory everyone is pumped for some skiing and riding at Snowshoe Mountain this week. College Winter Break Week is finally over and was a huge success.
Snowshoe will play host to the region's premier snowboard and free ski competition later this month. The Scion West Virginia Open will take place January 27th through the 29th and will feature the region's top skiers and riders. Check out
www.snowshoemtn.com for more details and don't forget to bring your camera! Also, if you want to witness the landmark competition you had better make your reservation today. With many of the East Coast's top riders and teams coming to the mountain, rooms are going fast!
Andrea Smith
Snowshoe Mountain Resort
Interim Communication Manager
WP,
Well, I'm not sure if that's really good news or not! Considering that Windowmaker already gets over-skied on busy days, this will just make things insane.
If they open some more terrain on that part of the mountain, then maybe that will make sense
-Warren-
I think SS will probably have to rename Widowmaker to ... Ballhooter II. One if the reasons Widowmaker is not overcrowded is that the lift is slow, thus effectively limiting the number of skiers on the slope at any one time.
Of course the press release has no hard details on what trail(s) will compromise the 'Widowmaker Slope System" .. what kind of market speak is that? I also got chuckles out of the bit "With the announcement of the new lift and one of the best seasons in recent memory everyone ..." best season huh?
Whatever ... lets hope the new area will draw the crowds just because it is 'new' and thus free up some of the nicer blue/black terrain in the basin from the kamikazes, snowplowers and sideslippers. Fingers crossed.
Ain't advertis'n grand!
Well if it brings new trails -and I mean real new trails not some feeder trail like the Camp 4 trail- then this is a good idea. If not they are just going to make Widowmaker crowded and unsafe.
Sometime this spring/summer Snowshoe announced that there would be several new slopes over near Widowmaker. There was quite a bit of chatter about it here on DCSki. In addition there was speculation that the placement of the new lift would eventually lead to the replacement of the Hawthorn lift and old trails cut on the west side (Cup Run side) of the mountain. The Hawthorn slope system, which never achieved potential due to limited snowmaking was abandoned a number of years ago. If reconstituted, it is about opposite where "Top of the World" lodging is located.
The Colonel
This is the first year in the 5 I've lived in the U.S. that I'm not going to Snowshoe. In fact I don't want to go to Snowshoe anymore. Overcrowded trails, pricey tickets and lodging and a horrendous drive. I just cannot justify it anymore. Intrawest isn't helping because their business model promotes the overcrowding of slopes by overdeveloping their real estate.
SS has EPA/DEP approval to develop 40 acres of ski terrain related to this new top-of-the-world lift. The is about a 35% expansion of the basin. Trail specifics have not been made public. The new lift will be shifted to the left (south?) to align with the new Soaring Eagle Lodge. That will effectively make Widowmaker trail wider, probably provide one or two new trails (black/blue) around the new lift line, and my guess is a new green around the south ridge of the basin and meandering down to the lift.
I tend to agree with kennedy ... this is our last year for season passes .. it just isn't worth it any more.
Our trip to SS in December was the worst ever as far as service, accommodations, etc. and we are very easy going people who don't get tense unless the situation is really bad. The oldtimer staff members ( the ones who haven't already left) are just as unhappy and frustrated as we are. I don't know what has happened, but Snowshoe isn't Snowshoe any more. Its just a generic, overcrowded, Intrawest resort on a small mountain charging big mountain prices. Frankly, if we hadn't spent the crowd days of Sat/Sun over at Silver Creek it would have been a total bust.
Sadly .. its time to move on.
The fact that they're spending all their money on expanding their 600 foot vert side instead of adding terrain in the Western Territory says it all for me. Now we have a three minute ride on terrain nominally larger than what you could find in Wisconsin. Woo-eee.
Here's one way to cut down on the crowded slopes: if just half the people that swear they are not coming back DON'T. But alas, the ones that complain the most are the first ones in line!
I bought a place there this year and just avoid the crowded times of the day. Anyway, never stood in a line at all on Cupp.
Rich ... good for you! Wish I could do the same, but some of us have knees [friggin things are out of warranty age-wise] that won't do serious blacks without giving up the ghost. Thank you, but I would rather ski 4/5 hours on blues and easy blacks than less than 2 on the likes of Cupp. Somehow sitting out most of the day in a rented condo isn't exactly my idea of a fun ski vacation.
Rich the crowds are only half the problem. I ride Silver Creek because the crowds are smaller and the terrain is better, Cupp run is fun first thing in the morning before the gapers come out to play. My issue is that Intrawest has an insatiable appetite for creating a sort of faux ski community with lodges and village additions rather than focusing on why people go in the first place, to ski. The mountain is nice but it's not $65/day nice. It's not 4-5 hours on twisty back roads nice and it's not $300 for a weekend nice. So no I won't be first in line, alas Snowshoe is not that good of a mountain.
I considered a condo there at one point but I'm just not sold on it anymore. Snowshoe peaked for me about 2 years ago. I'd get really excited about going for the weekend and look forward to it for months in advance. I'd read Snow News is Good News every morning after Joe posted. I think I've been on the site twice this year.
The fact is the likes of me and snowcone are a drop in the bucket. We can leave and go other places but that's not putting a dent in the crowds. As long as there are places to stay people will fill those spaces and Snowshoe is all about making more spaces.
I posted the exact same comments about SS back in Sept and you would have thought I had just shot the Pope, for all the people that jumped me! Oh well, can't say I didn't see it comming. BTW, where did you buy your Condo Rich? Our family sold ours in November, maybe you bought it. If so, good luck with the Shuttle and Central Reservations!
But to be serious here for a minute, ITW is very good at what they do, develop real estate. They overcame a lot of obsticles in building up SS. The property values increased nicely, they are just not super-strong at running a resort. They are good, just not great. You are only going to get so much vert out of that mountain. Not their fault, it's God's (and we all know he ski's Utah)!!!
I had some of the same beef's, no terrain expansion, and when they did it was feeders. Prob's with Central Reservations and most recently TOW check-in procedures. But they cater to a particular market (families) not expert skiers! Once I got over the fact that the place would never be ther "perfect" resort for me, I was fine. They have grown really fast and are experiencing some of the pains that go along with it, that's all.
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My issue is that Intrawest has an insatiable appetite for creating a sort of faux ski community with lodges and village additions rather than focusing on why people go in the first place, to ski.
I'm not sure skiing is the main motivation for a lot of people who go to Snowshoe. I recently did a search for Snowshoe Mountain on Webshots. Over half of the albums I saw didn't contain a single skiing shot. Every picture was of a bunch of drunk college kids havin' keggers.
Murph, that might just be a good sampler of the folk who waste ski time taking Webshots pics at Snowshoe.
I rarely pull out the camera at the hill. Too much messing around with gloves and pockets. Need to get a helmet cam. I'll concede that a lot of people go to party but they'll all be on the hill at some point.
Ullr, I can feel your pain, and i certainly didn't shoot at you when you made comments in the fall. You have some very good observations. On a trip out west last year, I read an article on the big resort developers that stated that the average Intrawest skiier spends 2 hours a day on the slopes. That pretty much explains it.
I have a place at Snowcrest. I am fortunate because I don't have to rent it. I go up there at least 20 days a season, because in my opinion they have the best conditions overall in the region. I bring my own food and beer, don't venture out to shop, eat, sleigh ride or any of that other junk. I avoid holiday and other crowded times (although all the competitions they are having at Silver Creek, and slope closings is starting to drive me crazy). If they add more trails, then great! But I agree with Ullr, take it for what it is.
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ITW is very good at what they do, develop real estate. They overcame a lot of obsticles in building up SS. The property values increased nicely, they are just not super-strong at running a resort.
Ullr, gotta disagree with you a little here. I think Intrawest is very good at running a resort when they put an effort into it. Whistler is one of the better resorts in the world, and one of the best here in North America. I think here in the Mid Atlantic, Intrawest has focused on increasing the quality of the skiing experience as opposed to the quantity. The addition of the long new green runs, the dramatically expanded snowmaking, Shay's Revenge- none of us have argued that these are bad things.
My thought is that they are vastly underestimating what could be done with Snowshoe and what ought to be done, quantitywise, with the mountain, especially given their real estate expansion. Marsh Mountain has demonstrated how resort expansions ought to be handled- by expanding terrain capacity and building a better ski experience. Snowshoe, having improved the quality, seems content on just making more of the same as far as quantity goes. I think they've misanalyzed the Mid-Atl ski market. Is Shay's underutilized? Possibly. Does that mean there's no market for a 1500 foot vertical intermediate run down here? No. As a matter of fact, the Western Territory would be dramatically better off with an intermediate run or two, as everybody and their mother tries to ski Cupp in the afternoon, turning into a body-strewn, icy nightmare.
We argue a lot about MPC, but here is Snowshoe sitting right on the biggest near-term expansion potential south of New York State, and they're doing nothing with it. NOTHING. That's what annoys me.
Oh, here's another interesting tidbit. Anyone pick up Blue Ridge Outdoors this month? It talks about the "future of southern snowsports." Nothing groundbreaking- standard talk of improved snowmaking vs. global warmning (and the impact that will have on backcountry skiing). But there was an interesting stat. In the "Forecast" article, the author cited a total of 4.2 million skier visits to southern resorts in the mid-90s. In 2005, despite a lackluster snow year (at least as far as two of the three major holiday weekends were concerned), there were 5.5 million skier visits to southern resorts.
That's an increase of almost 31% of skier visits in ten years, if those stats are true. This in a stagnant industry! The continued movement of northerners to the south is my guess as to why this is occurring. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to whether ski terrain in the south has expanded by almost a third to match this growing demand down in the Mid-Alt and Southeast? Anyone think Snowshoe has?
You put 1/3 more visitors onto virtually the same amount of terrain, you're going to have a deteriorated ski experience (even with better snowmaking). Period. And, if these really are in-migrants from colder climes, they're gonna want better terrain or they're going to ski less. Anyone besides Wisp doing anything about this?
Now that this thread has become an opinion piece on Snowshoe I'd figure I'd go ahead and post my thoughts in no particular order.
1. The new website design sucks. I miss Snow News and the more in depth weather forecasts it would give.
2. They definitely need more terrain. Hey if they add 3-4 new real trails over by Widowmaker that will be nice. It's a start. They reall need at least one more run over by Cup.
3. I still enjoy Snowshoe. Heading up next weekend and am praying that some cold snowmaking temps return. I simply avoid the Basin side like the plague on Saturday. Truth be told there are only about 3 decent trails on that side anyway. It just sucks for my dad and his older knees that on Saturday he pretty much has Silver Creek and that's about it.
4. I'm happy they've expanded the village. It's nice to have a few more places to grab a drink and sample some different food. Of cours the downside is all the new lodging and increased load on the slopes. I simply hope that Intrawest realizes that eventually they need new terrain on the Western Territory to keep Snowshoe a desirable place for lots of skiers.
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The fact that they're spending all their money on expanding their 600 foot vert side instead of adding terrain in the Western Territory says it all for me.
I agree 100% that they need more trails over there, and the existence of the detacheable quad is a strong reason why they can do it (the lift is very underutilized serving only the two longest trails on the mountain). There are some issues over there, however. For one, West Ridge Road bounds Cupp on one side and Shays on the other. They would need to close down more of the road (which provides access to houses, many still under construction) to get some additional long trails over there. That likely means any new trails would be shorter trails hanging off Cupp or Shays. In addition, the lower sections of Cupp and Shays are at a much lower elevation than the rest of the mountain, often below the snow/freeze line. So trails over there may have a shorter season. Anyway, my overall feeling is that they should add more trails over there ASAP. Cupp and Shays are the only two trails worth a damn at Snowshoe in my opinion.
When we ski there on crowded weekends, we almost always end up skiing at SilverCreek or the Western Territory (which itself can become a zoo sometimes). I absolutely hate the main mountain basin trails. They are overcrowded, the vertical drop is a joke, and most of the trails have a flat runout for the bottom 1/2 to 1/3. Combine that with slow lifts and long lift lines, and I often end up questioning my sanity. Now, having been there on a deserted weekday with fresh powder, I skied all over the mountain and loved it. But when it's crowded on weekends, all the flaws of the mountain become painfully obvious.
The thing is, SS is crowded because they are often fully booked. Clearly, though many of us have criticisms of the mountain, they are still bringing in hoardes of customers. AS long as their main clientele consist of casual-skier families, I don't expect much change. SS has tremendous potential to rival Vermont resorts, but I don't see them capitalizing on it much.
Craig
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Ullr, gotta disagree with you a little here. I think Intrawest is very good at running a resort when they put an effort into it. Whistler is one of the better resorts in the world, and one of the best here in North America.
Roger,
I was referring to SS poor customer service that snowcone mentioned, not just their ability to plan a resort. I too have been to Whistler and I agree the service is great. Whistler is their flagship, SS is much further down on ITW's agenda.
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I simply hope that Intrawest realizes that eventually they need new terrain on the Western Territory to keep Snowshoe a desirable place for lots of skiers.
Actually Monk, they don't. Their target market is families, which ski's mostly the blues. They take one trip a year, build up courage during the day and take a run or two down Cupp to have something to brag about at dinner.
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In addition, the lower sections of Cupp and Shays are at a much lower elevation than the rest of the mountain, often below the snow/freeze line. So trails over there may have a shorter season.
I never looked at it that way 219, but you make a great point! I agree also that a detacheable over there is a waste! Even on the busiest days it is rarely full.
I can see this room is full of old-timers that still think of Snowshoe as a Ski Resort! Intrawest (a real estate developer) is building a 4-season vacation/convention resort (is The Homestead a Ski Resort?) which is picking up so much CONVENTION business in the SUMMER that the Mtn Lodge ballrooms are not near big enough, hence the new Conv. Ctr going up next year. No one here is probably aware of the caliber of Snowshoes' GOLF COURSE. Yes, they make a few bucks off of skiing (they tell me 65-70% come up from the SOUTH), but this isn't the West. Current skiing is more then enough for the typical Intrawest/Snowshoe client who enjoys the new pool, bars, resturants just as much. You "serious" skiers certainly won't consider this a SKI RESORT any more then Whitetail or Mass-a-nothin'....oh ... you do?!? You need to compare Snowshoe to Snowshoe, not to Banff or Tahoe. Like I say, if half those that complain actually DON'T come back, I'd be riding the quad ALONE. LOL
Anyone paying $650k+ for a "ski" condo is probably smart enogh to buy one out West at a "ski" resort. They're buying a SNOWSHOE condo in West Virginia (not the ski capital of the Western Hemisphere). I wanted space, so I bought a 3 bdrm/2 full bath, fireplace, deck, seperate dining rm at The Summit (in the middle of a 1.5 million $ renno). I'm single (made a good/quick deal paying cash) and won't be renting out...it's just for me and friends. There is so much to do at the Shoe' (oh, yes, they have some skiing too); I love Snowshoe for what it IS, not what chatters think it should be.
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You "serious" skiers certainly won't consider this a SKI RESORT any more then Whitetail or Mass-a-nothin'....oh ... you do?!?
Actually, to be quite honest, the more I ski around the Mid-Atl, the more I'm convinced that Whitetail is in the Top 5 of ski areas here. If they were 1000 feet higher and faced northeast instead of southeast, they'd probably be 2nd to Timberline in my books.
Skier219, you've got some good points about the limitations on the Western Territory. I think the higher quality snowmaking system can reduce some of the freeze/thaw concerns on the lower portion of that skiing- remember, Wintergreen's summit elevation is 300 feet higher than Snowshoe's base, is at the same latitude, and gets much less snow. If they can have a three month ski season, then surely we can get a similar ski season length out of Cupp, Shays, and new runs over there? I don't expect that we could ski on those runs from Nov-Apr, but Christmas to sometime in March would be just fine.
One question: does the road you mention affect the Hawthorne slope system as well? If it does, than that was really boneheaded on the part of the real estate developers. If they want to build something to the north of Cupp Run, it would have to use the top part of Cupp to get around those homes but it could split off for its own 1300-1400 feet of vertical.
West ridge road can be circumvented by a ski tunnel.
Also, whomever mentioned Whitetail as being good is dead on. When that place has good snow it is a joy to ski; nice trails with a consistent fall-line.
Lastly, welcome to the new guy in the Summit. It's one of the best investment decisions I ever made for my father. We bought the year that Intrawest took over. I looked at what they had done at Tremblant and figured they's soon be sellig tiny studios for twice what we would end up paying.
... or circumvented by a skiable bridge like they do in Park City. Deer Valley has a number of bridges and tunnels that allow access roads to all those zillion buck vanity homes on the slopes ... there is no reason similar plans couldn't be used on the Western Territory.
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Anyone paying $650k+ for a "ski" condo is probably smart enogh to buy one out West at a "ski" resort. They're buying a SNOWSHOE condo in West Virginia (not the ski capital of the Western Hemisphere). I wanted space, so I bought a 3 bdrm/2 full bath, fireplace, deck, seperate dining rm at The Summit (in the middle of a 1.5 million $ renno). I'm single (made a good/quick deal paying cash) and won't be renting out...it's just for me and friends. There is so much to do at the Shoe' (oh, yes, they have some skiing too); I love Snowshoe for what it IS, not what chatters think it should be.
I am curious -- how much are similar condos going for up there? Having some flexibility with my job, I have often considered telecommuting from a nearby resort in the winter months. But I'd need to find a decent condo that could be a affordable second mortgage without rentals to offset it. If you've recently shopped/bought up there, I'd be interested to hear any advice you have to offer (PM me if you think it's drifting off-topic here).
thanks,
Craig
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You need to compare Snowshoe to Snowshoe, not to Banff or Tahoe.
Rich, you are missing the point. Many posters here are comparing Snowshoe to Snowshoe past, and Snowshoe to other areas in the Mid-Atlantic, and Snowshoe is coming up short for a lot of people.
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Skier219, you've got some good points about the limitations on the Western Territory. I think the higher quality snowmaking system can reduce some of the freeze/thaw concerns on the lower portion of that skiing- remember, Wintergreen's summit elevation is 300 feet higher than Snowshoe's base, is at the same latitude, and gets much less snow. If they can have a three month ski season, then surely we can get a similar ski season length out of Cupp, Shays, and new runs over there? I don't expect that we could ski on those runs from Nov-Apr, but Christmas to sometime in March would be just fine.
One question: does the road you mention affect the Hawthorne slope system as well? If it does, than that was really boneheaded on the part of the real estate developers. If they want to build something to the north of Cupp Run, it would have to use the top part of Cupp to get around those homes but it could split off for its own 1300-1400 feet of vertical.
You are right about the snowmaking being the difference -- I just think of those borderline warm days where the bottom of Cupp/Shays (especially Cupp) starts to mush up. Which of course is similar to what happens at Wintergreen (I normally ski there once a week but haven't been up recently anticipating what the snow is like). I guess the main point is that trails on the Western territory will probably be a little more dependent on cold weather than elsewhere on the mountain, but it wouldn't be a deal killer.
Do you know where Hawthore was/is relative to some landmarks up on the mountain?? (I know it's roughly opposite Top of the World, right?) West Ridge Road comes out just below the new-ish Loggers Run condos (across the street), which are themselves just below TOW. Directly across from TOW, there is a heli-pad now.
I drove down the Shays side of West Ridge Road on Sunday as we were leaving Snowshoe, and there are many new houses under construction (some have to be $2-5 million homes), along with a dozen or so existing houses. I did not see very much open space that would accomodate new trails, tunnel/bridge or otherwise (in this case, a ski-bridge would appear to make more sense). In addition, as you're skiing down Shays, you can see a clearing below and parallel to West Ridge Road that could be for a pipeline or a future road for houses (there are utility boxes and markers in the clearing which suggest one of the above). So that has me wondering what's in store there.
I have not been on the other Cupp side of the road -- anybody else know if there's more room over there?? That road branches off the main drag just uphill from the Silver Creek access road.
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Do you know where Hawthore was/is relative to some landmarks up on the mountain?? (I know it's roughly opposite Top of the World, right?)
If you cross the road, with your back to TOW, there's a heli pad on your left, to your right and downhill you still may be able to see the old foundations for the lift towers. I think that's were it was.
I can still tie this into "lifts". Looked at most everything on the market there in Nov with a realtor/developer from DC acting as my buyers agent. Seneca, Allegany Springs, RimFire, most all Village units were the same. When you start in that range, there's not that much room for appreciation. And, do the math - at half a mil ... just how much rent per week and how many weeks do you need to have it occupied? We were in the $450k range and they were small with similar floor plans. There are only two real bargains on the mountain: The Summit and Top-of-the-World (for different reasons). You can get ToTW under $100k and it rents constantly (they have a ski rental, check in, restaurant, bar shops, etc., all in-house). And, right on the top of the Widowmaker lift. I was told, the new building next door will be the most premiere property at Snowshoe, and that they are financing the new high-speed quad, mainly to service them. ToTW appreciation will follow by default! However, it's too small (1-bdrm) for me - great rental income, but not for long-term owner residency...but cheap w/minuscule condo fee. The Summit has low curb appeal currently due to the $1.5 million renno construction they are in the middle of....but when done next year (new siding/insulation all round, new decks, new doors & windows, new walkways, new metal steps up to the village, etc. etc.) you'll realize at least a $100k appreciation in the next year. Just how many 3-bdrm/2 full baths w/fireplace, new deck, separate dining room, full size washer & dryer are there at Snowshoe??? And who knows...if they do expand the Western Terr., it might even become ski in./ski out.
Just got the e-mail from SS announcing the new lift at Widowmaker. There is only a slight reference to trails and it wasn't until the last paragraph (It doesn't even say new trails). I know they are doing new trails because I have seen the DEP document and J.D. Morgan at Snowshoe confirmed that they are (40 acres). It is just interesting that they think (and are probably right) that thier guests are more interested in a fancy fast lift ride than in trail expansion. Most other resorts would lead the announcement with the trail expansion - not the lift. Snowshoe's guests are voting with thier dollars and currently don't appear to give a hoot about new trails.
