Ski Area Debate
January 2, 2006
57 posts
17 users
17k+ views
This is one person's view of Mount Porte Crayon's ski and slope layout. This is the flat rock run side of Mount Porte Crayon that "FishnSki" has brought up. His idea of landscaping came to me as a very important aspect of the new area. (map to follow if i can figure out how to post)
The Mount Porte Crayon (4,770') Ski Area Debate -
There have been some ruminations around the Mid-Atlantic region of a possible ski area being built on Mount Porte Crayon, just south of Canaan Valley, WV. I would like to add my 2 cents worth. First, a few disclaimers/assumptions.
1) I have only heard of Mount Porte Crayon (4,770') being a possible area for ski area development by the dude that owns Wintergreen (here-to-after: Mr. Developer). I don't know what has transpired regarding his plans or whether this thing is even feasible after the environmental impact studies are complete.
2) I do not work for Mr. Developer, nor do have any stake in the mountain.
3) The attached map is my notion of what the area should look like. It is not Mr. Developer's plan, nor does he know of it. I expect a lawsuit any day now.
4) I assume that he owns the north slope of the mountain (he would be dumb if he were to develop on any other aspect) in the Flatrock Run drainage.
5) I won't turn down any lucrative offer from Mr. Developer to serve as his environmentally-friendly, ski area development consultant/designer/engineer.
OK, back to the work at hand. The map shows my best guess at what a bad-ass mountain would look like. The base elevation is at 2,540' and the top of lift-served terrain would be 4,702', this gives an impressive 2,162 vertical feet - nothing to sneeze at. Timberline and Canaan Valley have 1,000' and 850', respectively. Snowshoe to the south has 850', except for one run that offers 1,500'. Of course Mount Porte Crayon would have a northerly exposure to hold snow in our miserable region, but the mountain can easily expect 150" - 200" inches of the white stuff per year.
The mountain would cater to advanced skiers, but would offer some green runs too. I think that two lifts would suffice, maybe a third or fourth. All lifts are to be fixed grip - detachable quads just crowd up the slopes. Also, on the ride up people should ponder the beauty of the terrain and slower lifts give time to do this and regenerate your quadricept muscles. I might even ban snowboarders for snowquality purposes, but this is a pipe dream. All expert runs are to be gladed for four reasons. Glades are awesome, they hold snow better than down-mountain runs, will be less intrusive to the ecology of the area, and provide a better viewshed of the mountain from the valley (on all accounts, see mountain plan of Mad River Glen, VT). Intermediate runs shall have intermittent trees to act as snow catchers and Oxygen producers. Green runs will also have some softwoods interspersed so as to help with snowpack. Spruces and Firs won't hurt the beginners when they run into them too. Let's face it, this mountain is in the Mid-Atlantic - we need to keep the snow that falls - see Whitegrass's snowfarming techniques with fences and trees to act as windbreaks.
Now, I am a bit a torn about the possibility of a mountain like this getting developed. There is not much undeveloped land around and the mountains of WV are beautiful and isolated, so if it is to be developed, I would like to see it done the correct way. If the mountain is developed properly, more snow would be retained and less money would be wasted in land-clearing, lift construction, AND snowmaking. Also, maybe a mountain like this would be good for the local economy.
Also, I think that Mr. Developer is planning on naming the real estate condo community "Almost Heaven". I really hope he doesn't name the mountain that. That's pretty dorky. Mount Porte Crayon Ski Area will suffice. The mountain can speak for itself. Also, let's not mar the mountain with trophy homes and condos. They belong in the valley, if anywhere. Let's be cognizant of the fact that a close neighbor is the Monongehela National Forest and bobcats, bear, deer, etc. make the area their home.
HomeBuiscuit- do you have a blog where you posted this? One of our members- Denis, if I remember right- linked to your blog a while back, or at least to a blog that had virtually the same argument on it with a rather nice trail layout. Anyway, all comments from hereon presume that blog is yours.
First, let me say that you really came up with an ingenious way to utilize the terrain. I had been studying the topography for a while on MPC and did not find it very conducive to a good ski resort, but you solved the problem very nicely with a couple of different sections t the mountain that will make it seem much bigger than it actually is. I was reminded of Solitude out in Utah- it's not large by western standards but the terrain keeps folding in on itself, revealing one face after another, making you feel like your skiing across a much bigger territory than you are. You also did a great job of solving the drainage basin conundrum by having a lift take you out of that drain instead of running a slope down it. That slope would be overwhelmingly crowded, so using the lift to escape it would help keep people spread out.
That said, there's a couple of things worth considering. First, a ski resort of that magnitude in this region simply can't cater to expert skiers. Ski areas don't make money; real estate does. Anything that caters to only 10-15% of the skiing crowd that is as large (and will take up as much controversy as MPC is going to take up if Bill Bright proposes it) will be doomed to bankruptcy and failure. This ski resort will not make it without significant intermediate and novice skiing.
Second, glades are nice but you can't use them exclusively for several reasons. Most importantly, you know how fickle our weather here is. Without snowmaking, even this cold December would have only been skiable on a couple of well groomed runs. On a good year, a glade will be skiable for 4-6 weeks; on a bad year, none at all. This means that for the balance of the ski season (assuming a 125 day ski season, that means somewhere between 80-100 days), the only runs off the summit on that map will be a couple of novice runs. They will be jammed, icy, and dangerous.
Certainly there is room for some very large gladed skiing areas, but you're gonna need at least an intermediate run or two off the summit as well as some open advanced runs (ideally, if Wisp is a model, you can run some glades along snowmaking runs to get some windblown snow into them and keep them open longer).
A key problem that has been mentioned by several people is potential water supply issues in the basin that MPC will face into. This lends support to your glade emphasis but is an environmental issue that has to be addressed. Finally, keep a close eye at the base of the mountain. There's a creek that one of the lifts cross that makes it difficult to get back to the base area. There would have to be extensive grading work done there to hook those trails back to the lodge- certainly not a difficult task for a landscape engineering firm but it will be hard to get the EIS approval necessary from the USFS.
Agree that the area would need beginner and intermediate runs to survive, but it would be great if they could segregate different parts of the mountain for these runs. Don't have it like snowshoe where beginners and experts all come together in long runouts to lifts or where beginner runs traverse across the fall lines of advanced ones. Maybe don't allow any beginner runs from the summit. Also, with 2200' vertical, detachable quads are a MUST. Can you imagine riding the powder monkey lift for 3x as long or Thunderdraft over twice as long to get to the summit. I can appreciate the need to appreciate the beauty of the area, but I personally would like to get over 3 runs an hour in. A lift of that magnitude would take at least 15-20 minutes if it wasn't high speed. Still I say bring it on, this place could certainly rock.
2200' of vert in the mid-atlantic would be amazing. This resort would not only be a big player in the mid atlantic but throughout the east coast!! Can't wait to see the map!
Hope this works
HomeBuscuit- second post didn't work. Maybe you should just link to the other site?
I agree with NDSkier- went to undergrad there ND but I'm not rooting for the football team, ever- that there is a need for high speed quads too. When you have a mountain with 2000 feet of vertical, and a couple of those lifts cover well over 1000 feet of vert, the high speed quad is still going to take 5-7 minutes to ride up. Plus, as a couple of us have seen at Wisp, detachable lifts are very beneficial for the novices that will be going up to the summit to take advantage of those three and four mile runs. Get rid of those detachable chairs and not only to do you have a 20 minute ride but one that stops frequently as well. Whee.
For what its worth...
Mr. Developer (Bill Bright) owns Winterplace, not Wintergreen. You might want to update your original post to reflect that.
Second, you don't need glades to hold snow. We are having a completely anemic ski season in Southern California right now. I believe there has been 4" of snow to DATE as of 12/27. Mt Baldy & Mt High are struggling (No opening vs. 8-10" base respectively) while Snow Summit (with one of the nations largest snowmaking systems) is thriving. None of our resorts here have open glades for skiing -- the trails and vert is also wider/ longer than Mid-Altantic Resorts. (Snow Summit has ~1200-1300 of vert @ the peaks). Their success is the direct result of effective snowmaking and planning on the part of their management team.
What Bill Bright (owner of Winterplace, developer of Almost Heaven/ MPC) knows and what WE know is: its all about snowmaking. Someone else here mentioned that there are water issues at the site, THAT is the biggest threat to development. It could end up being that MPC becomes homesites and not a resort -- do not count this option out. Bill Bright sold his large stake in Glade Springs to Cooper Development which has made a cash cow out of the former property. Certainly he has taken notice of the increased interest in WV real estate as a place to escape...
see if this works.Where is Baywalker when you need him? If this doesn't work can you do your magic Rogerz?
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2086/962/1600/pc5.0.jpg IT didn't work! By the way I AM NOT THE BLOGGER! I just tried to bring it up for interesting discussion! There is a major chance that if the last bit of property on that Mtn cannot be bought & the red tape not breakable,Like WP said "the developer" will just build homes all over the sides of the mtn with no ski area. What a shame! I even searched "bill Bright" & found where there is a Developement named "almost heaven" that is or will be a gated community with a "ski complex" What does that mean?
Awlright, i've got the map twice must be someone having some tecnikal difficultys besides me for a change. Here's something i never considered b4 that really bothers me, thanks WP E, where u bin?
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Someone else here mentioned that there are water issues at the site, THAT is the biggest threat to development. It could end up being that MPC becomes homesites and not a resort -- do not count this option out....... Certainly he has taken notice of the increased interest in WV real estate as a place to escape...
Now what's the sense, to a skier, of taking this sweet mountain and developing it without a ski area? Now i'm pissed, andy u out there?? There's plenty of places to develop *liebenschraum* in CV. Why ruin MPC with development if selfish i can't ski there. RogerZ said earlier that it doesn't matter to him one way or another if "almost heaven" gets built or not and i admit i agree, but if someones gonna develop that mountain and not put a ski area on it, i'll start hugging trees and loving salamanders and flying swuirrels to stop it!
Whew, so much for my resolution 
, i'm going back to the untopic for a while; things make so much more sense there.
Andy=Fishnski=HOMEBUSCUIT!!! WuzzzUppp? Hey Jimmi I can't catch up with you & rogerz & crew on the amount of post's but who has posted with as many Alias's? I figured that no one(regulars) would pay this post any mind if it was brought up by Fishnski...But homebuscuit got a little response!The map was up for awhile...& its a good one..Don't know what happened...catchin some fish & some rays down here on Amilia Island,Fl...Be back up in the Valley with the next Artic Blast!
Thanks for the effort Skier219,but I still get a "acsess denied"..oh well, we can just pull up a topo map & make our own ski area design.
I think Mr. Bright's biggest challenge is rising interest rates and the prospect of a collapse in the real estate market. Those two issues will make any type of financing deal tricky for a new resort. WV could end up being like New Hampshire in the 1980s--an overheated second property market that completely collapsed.
Well, even though NH collapsed because the MA bubble burst in the late 1980s, it certainly is back along with everything else right now. For that matter, NH might be the hottest real estate market in New England, and the second home market up in the Whites is likely doing just fine as well. If a resort area wasn't booming during this run, I'd be surprised. The moral of the story? There is no "end" to a real estate market and a developer that owns 1000 acres of land outright is a man who can wait for the next boom if this one ends.
That said, I'm growing skeptical that the DC real estate market is going to end its run anytime soon. The dynamics aren't there. Even if it cools off, it probably won't cool off like other markets in the country. The only thing that stops the DC market is a cool down in government spending, which operates on a completely different rhythm than the economy.
Add to that the Route 55 extension, Marsh Mountain's ownership of Tory, the state's focus on ecotourism for Tucker County and its desire to boost tourism... I drove through Route 33 to Route 32 cruising up to Wisp last week, and all I could think was that 20 years from now there would be very little chance the valleys around Harman would look anything like they look today. If MPC and Tory get built (or Tory gets rebuilt), the Greater CV region will be the biggest resort market in the Mid Atlantic. The Canaan Valley Institute should turn its attention to thinking abot the landscape down there, before it winds up looking like Boone, Gatlinburg, and Pigeon Forge.
Roger:
Bright seems to be "a day late and a dollar short," but I would never rule anything out. Real estate sales in the valley are still pretty brisk--lots of new houses on Winterhaven and 200 new condos to be built right on the Timberline Rd. CV, however, is quickly running out of land that can be developed, and Harman/Dry Fork is the next big thing--the Shaw of WV. BTW, I read recently in the Washington Post that 48,000 new condos will come online in the next two years in DC (not the metro area but DC proper). I think if DC catches a cold in the real estate area, WV will get the flue. I see a lot of paralels to NH in the 80s.
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Andy=Fishnski=HOMEBUSCUIT!!! WuzzzUppp? Hey Jimmi I can't catch up with you & rogerz & crew on the amount of post's but who has posted with as many Alias's?
Yeah Andy=Fishnski=HOMEBUSCUIT, but you're the only one with a statue 
!
johnfmh, have you heard what the price is on those condos?
The country went into a major depression in the 80's,& the country is doing fine now...theres the diff + like roger says...look at NH now..BOOMING...Its inevitable...now or when we are in our 80's. I say now before that Mtn area gets screwed up!Any comment on the Gated Community with a "ski Complex"..is that for real or just a bluff on Mr Brights part? Anyway Ive always loved NH & if there wasn't West va I would have a second home up there...BUT i just do not know how many more neg posts i can read from you John on the subject..I just might give up, sell my home In the WV Mtns..start the real estate crash & move up near Bretton Woods,NH...can I wear my Cammo snow suit up there?
To be honest the real estate market here is not going to bust but it is going to flatten and normalize. There is a glut of properties on the market already and another 47000 to come online in the next few years but don't expect prices to drop significantly. Whats likely to happen is the house market will stabilize but remain fairly high. I think the market brought out overvalued properties and these will settle back to where they really should be. I think the biggest driver was that property was undervalued in the first place so that caused a big swing but thats burning out now. The condo market will see a bit of a hit at the high end, I don't see as many people willing to hunt for a 5 - 700,000 dollar condo so I see those lingering on the market but anything up to the $350,000 range will still be hot and sell well. As regards second properties thats a market that will cool a lot I think. When primary properties are burning that hot it leaves less revenue to spend on high end second homes especially when their prices are jacked up considerably.
Jimmy:
I have no idea who is devloping those condos and how much they will sell for. The realtors up there may know. It might be worth a call.
Andy, I grew up skiing in New Hampshire at Gunstock (I'm sure you like the name of that resort). I love the granite state--reminds me of WV.
If you want a snapshot of the WV ski area real estate market, it is useful to contrast the resell market inventory at Snowshoe vs. that in Canaan Valley. In general, the market at Snowshoe is very bad, whereas the market in CV is quite good. I believe there are several reasons for this:
1) Most of the inventory at SS is for "premium" units in the newer Intrawest buildings. While very, very well done, these also have very high fees and carrying costs, while returning only a modest amount of income.
2) Prices in CV are still comparatively modest, e.g. in the $120 - $180 per sq ft, for aquisition. At SS, prices are upwards of $400 (!!) per sq ft at the Intrawest properties.
3) SS properties at the current prices produce very high negative cash flow. In CV, negative cash is still "only" in the $800 per month range. That said, if properties are not selling, and therefore not appreciating, the only value is for personal use.
4) Every property is tied to an assessment. These, as a rule, do not go down. So, even neglecting the aquisition cost and possible impacts of mortgage adjustments, the carrying cost will always go up. This, in turn, leads to a large pool of properties coming on the market at any time at SS, where the development is single faceted, large and dense. In CV, there is more of a 4 season market, the overall pool is much smaller, and the costs lower. Hence, fewer owners desire to cut their loses (or take their profits) at any point in time (again, assuming reduced rates or appreciation or even a flat market.)
Into this mix comes the new development at Timberline, and it will be very interesting to see how well they sell. I expect the prices to be closer to the CV norm than the SS norm, but still upwards of 250 per sq ft.
Relative to the "ski area debate" of this topic, I don't think there is any debate at all: MPC, if built, will be based on very expensive real estate. If there is a ski area as part of it, there will be extensive snowmaking and few "gladed" runs on the official map. The build/no build decision (from the developers) will be based on the economics of the proposal. Environmental and NIMBY concerns may then block the project, but they will not get it built - only the potential for roi will do that.
Given this, I think Tory Mtn is much more likely than seeing a ski area at MPC in my lifetime. At least at Tory, many of the very difficult issues have been at least partially addressed. The things you can be assured of NOT happening are that someone will spend the money to open a MRG style, throwback ski area with an expert skier focus. Places like that have gone out of business all over the country and there is no chance of them returning. Take a look at the problems at Laurel Mtn for a close by example.
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Thanks for the effort Skier219,but I still get a "acsess denied"..oh well, we can just pull up a topo map & make our own ski area design.
I wonder if someone is moving that image? I could see it just fine at the link I posted last night, but it gives access denied now. Either that, or maybe it has restricted/limited viewing. Do you have a link to the original blog itself?
I came across an MIT study on New England Ski Resort real estate prices. Statistical buffs will love it - heres the link:
http://mit.edu/cre/research/papers/wp82wheaton.pdfTheir conclusion is that ski resorts/markets quickly respond to short-term positive shocks (ex. a great snow year, a good economy) and permanent shocks (ex. change in demographics) with new real estate supply. Real estate values initially respond positively to these shocks but are ultimately (in about 5 years) overwhelmed by the new supply, and in the long run drop in price on a real (inflation adjusted) basis. So in other words - investors simply can't keep pace with the developers.
Thanks Tommo for your assessment on the property market, especially at SS, I feel vindicated. About 4 years ago we seriously investigated buying a new condo at SS. I don't know what it was, but something just didn't click so we didn't conclude the deal. The next few years we were kicking ourselves as we watched the prices of the higher-end condos increase significantly and thinking we had made a dumb error in not buying in when we could. Now we are glad we didn't. The prices for the high-end condos have started dropping and there seems to be an over abundance of them on the market. I believe that, outside of the ultra luxurious properties now under construction, the only market left at SS is in the mid-lower cost older units outside of the village center that families buy for personal use [like ibotta] rather than as an income investment.
When I look at the cost of the SS properties vis a vis the available skiing terrain, it just doesn't add up for us. Better to spend 200k on a 1 bed condo in S. Lake Tahoe than the equivalent at SS. Maybe real estate at Canaan will look like a better investment for the future but not if they get greedy and start shooting for SS prices.
Very interesting paper. I would submit that the real return on the high end developments presently in vogue would be negative as opposed to just flat. However, the real return for the properties in the study has likely improved considerably due to the very high appreciation rate of existing units over the last 3 years.
I also found it interesting that they were unable to use rental data (prices or occupancy rates) to create an even more accurate picture of the return. I believe that the data would have strengthened their conclusion that, in real terms, the properties did not offer a compelling ROI. Much other data, as well as casual observation, has shown rents at most resorts to be flat over the last several years. Indeed, there are now so many more owners chasing an essentially flat rental market that, in many places, daily rates are now falling for all but the most desireable dates e.g. holidays.
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The prices for the high-end condos have started dropping and there seems to be an over abundance of them on the market. I believe that, outside of the ultra luxurious properties now under construction, the only market left at SS is in the mid-lower cost older units outside of the village center that families buy for personal use
I completely agree: I cannot imagine why anyone would buy one of the new units at SS now. Take a look at any of the local real estate sites, e.g. www.snowshoerealty.com for a sobering taste of reality. On this one site alone, for example, there are 24 Allegany Springs units listed. As you noted, though, the older places - Powder Ridge, TOTW, et al - are still in relatively high demand and there are far fewer for sale. Of course, they are still in the 250 - 300 sq ft range. And let's not even think about the "interval ownership" propositions that just keep getting more and more ridiculous.
I shudder to think what will happen to some of these buildings if the owners can no longer make the monthly association payments (often upward of $500) in addition to the mortgage. If, has been speculated, many of the properties were bought by "investors" who could find themselves in a cash flow bind, it will be very ugly indeed.
Second homes can be a great life style enhancement and many folks on this board can, fortunately, attest to that benefit. Those who buy for purely speculative reasons, though, have created much of what I believe is "false appreciation" over the last few years, and many will be hard pressed to maintain their positions as interest rates rise and prices flatten or fall.
I agree with you that some out west locations make more sense. In particular, look for an area with a robust local economy that is not completely dependent on skiing (esp. on a single ski area. Or golf course for that matter). That way, if things don't turn out as planned, you will find it easier to sell or, possibly, to find a long term or seasonal renter to take up some of the cash flow slack. just mho....
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I came across an MIT study on New England Ski Resort real estate prices. Statistical buffs will love it - heres the link:
http://mit.edu/cre/research/papers/wp82wheaton.pdf
Their conclusion is that ski resorts/markets quickly respond to short-term positive shocks (ex. a great snow year, a good economy) and permanent shocks (ex. change in demographics) with new real estate supply. Real estate values initially respond positively to these shocks but are ultimately (in about 5 years) overwhelmed by the new supply, and in the long run drop in price on a real (inflation adjusted) basis. So in other words - investors simply can't keep pace with the developers.
Thanks for the article link--very interesting...
Tommo- good write-up, and you're absolutely right. The money in the ski resort industry is in real estate, whether you're talking Whistler or Seven Springs. MPC will not be a Mad River Glen. While I disagree that an expert-only ski area will naturally fail (look at Mount Bohemia in Michigan or Silverton in Colorado), it would definitely flop at MPC. It's gonna cost too much money even without the legal fights (which I think will be substantial in this case) and the mountain is in the heart of one of the most rapidly developing resort locations east of the Rockies.
Now, what's interesting is comparing what Marsh Mountain might do with Tory versus what Bill Bright might do with MPC. Having skied Wisp and Winterplace back-to-back, it is my opinion that Winterplace is not nearly as well done a ski resort as Wisp is. There are too many trails that cut against the fall line, too little advantage made of the natural contour of the mountain. Winterplace feels like lifts and trails were forced into their position to make the mountain work. I know last year I wrote that I thought Bill Bright had done a good job with what little he had to work with, but after spending some more time evaluating the mountain this trip, I no longer think that.
Wisp has demonstrated a propensity to provide skiing for all levels and to make skiing an integral part of its resort plans. I'm not sure the current owners would ever have built a Devil's Drop, but they're certainly not taking it away, either. And how many ski areas are in the Mid-Atl that are including substantial new ski terrain to accomodate all the new residential that they're building?
I think if Marsh Mountain turns it's attention to building Tory, they will do a better job with less controversy than Mr. Bright will do on MPC. There is, however, one HUGE qualification to that opinion: Mr. Bright is the local, Marsh is the outsider. West Virginia could make life hell for the owners of Wisp and do a lot to tilt the ball in Mr. Bright's favor- it's not as if the legislature has a sterling history of neutrality on things like this. But, ceteris paribus (sp?), I wouldn't be surprised if Marsh would do a much better job overall.
John, when i mentioned your neg posts i should have put a smiley face there...i know that you are just trying to make common sense & "reality" remarks...Me, i just live in fantasy land! The Dude that laid my foundation & is finishing up on my well & septic told me that he is now working on a 37 acre tract in the Valley that will house 500 duplex units! The canaan valley store better expand! You guys are WAYYYYY to Smart for me with all your economic & market Ect..." posts It justs clouds the brain.....I think though that you all are missing 1 large facter...the ski area itself...This ski area will be HUGE in relation to the mid atlantic & SE.Doesn't that fact change the whole equation?...I like to relate a lot of things to fishing,which is what i do when i am not skiing.....Fishnski..If there are no fish in a area you build a man made reef so attractive that the fish will come!!! Throw in some Chum & you have a friggin feeding frenzy.....Hope your reading Mr. Bill Bright!
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I think if Marsh Mountain turns it's attention to building Tory, they will do a better job with less controversy than Mr. Bright will do on MPC.
Thanks for the kind words: I often feel like the Grinch on these discussions, when all I'm trying to do is inject a more financially realistic view.
I really do think that Tory has more potential. If you do a careful examination of the Red Creek watershed/MPC terrain, I think you'd find it quite difficult to shoehorn in the kind of development that'd be necessary for a project of this magnitude to get off the ground. Combine that with the EIS fights that would erupt (not to mention endangered species issues - see Salamander, northern) and I just can't see MPC ever getting to the bull dozer stage.
Tory, on the other hand, has none of those issue to contend with, but many of the same advantages. Granted, the vertical is not as great, but with a full 1400' over the whole resort, it would still blow away everything south of NY/VT/NH. Plus, the roads are better, with routes coming in directly from the N, E, and W, and a town (such as it is) is closer. Yes, there is a water issue, but it seems likely that a permit could be obtained to do seasonal withdrawls from Shavers(?) Fork. It certainly has adequate flow and is much, much larger than Red Creek. Moreover, the valley at that point is mostly low yield agriculture, so a it's unlikely that the withdrawls would cause too much controversy. I believe the WVHC has also agreed that, if a ski area is to be built, that Tory is the place to do it. This alone could help push things away from MPC.
The way this **could** happen would be if Mr. Bright and Ms. Myers were to join forces. Short of a public company buying them out, it seems higly unlikely that either one would (could?) risk the amount of money that would be required to build a new resort on their own. It's worth noting, in the case of Wisp, that the ownership group is comprised of several successful investors, and some of them are already working on projects in WV as well. So, at least in Ms. Myers case, there is experience with working as part of an investor group.
As to the slopes - yeah, I agree that the current owners wouldn't build a Devils Drop today. Alas, the run "Over the edge" was far more formidable when it was first cut than it is now, becuase the whole bottom third was graded severely to reduce the angle of intersection with Dipper at the bottom. But, at least they did build the thing. Fact is, they could have just kept building houses with no ski area expansion at all, and they'd still be selling the real estate. After all, the main draw in that area has always been Deep Creek Lake and, until they bought out Mr. Heise, very little capital improvements had made at Wisp in a long time. Now, in about 4 years, they've built the new base lodge, replaced all the chair lifts, built the new expansion, doubled snowmaking capacity, bought new groomers, added the terrain park and paved the parking lots. I don't think any eastern area except Okemo has done as much in the last 5 years.
I think the expansion has also given them an opportunity to really understand what it takes to build an area from scratch. To my eye, there's a lot parallels with the expansion and Tory. Put another way, if you took the North Camp expansion and transplanted it to Tory Mountain, you have a ski area! 2 lifts, similar terrain, just much longer slopes. Put up a minimal base lodge, and get the Real Estate cranking with a "village" blueprint, and you could conceivably be viable within 18 months. Plus, since you already own the land....there's a good chance that the permitting process could go through without a full EIS. But that's probably way too optimistic 
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John, when i mentioned your neg posts i should have put a smiley face there...i know that you are just trying to make common sense & "reality" remarks...Me, i just live in fantasy land! The Dude that laid my foundation & is finishing up on my well & septic told me that he is now working on a 37 acre tract in the Valley that will house 500 duplex units! The canaan valley store better expand! You guys are WAYYYYY to Smart for me with all your economic & market Ect..." posts It justs clouds the brain.....I think though that you all are missing 1 large facter...the ski area itself...This ski area will be HUGE in relation to the mid atlantic & SE.Doesn't that fact change the whole equation?...I like to relate a lot of things to fishing,which is what i do when i am not skiing.....Fishnski..If there are no fish in a area you build a man made reef so attractive that the fish will come!!! Throw in some Chum & you have a friggin feeding frenzy.....Hope your reading Mr. Bill Bright!
Andy:
I drove home via 93 and it seemed like every other house between Scherr and New Creek had a deer in the smoker. I naturally thought of you ANDY. I don't hunt but I LOVE deer sausage, and those smoking deers smelled oh so good. With ALMOST HEAVEN, you will no longer be able to shoot one in your back yard--you will have to hike deep into the Dolly Sods to find one and then drag it back to the road and pray you don't get attacked by a bear.. Is that REALLY what you want Andy? 
Tommo I think you and I are on a very similar page with regard to MPC. I'd take you a step further and say that trying to develop MPC would lead to an epic confrontation between environmental groups and the ski industry. It would be the birthpoint of the environmental movement in West Virginia. I don't see how much good can come of it, and the natural terrain of MPC isn't fantastic for a ski resort. For comparison's sake, look at, say, the northeast side of Whitetop in the southern part of VA. You may not be able to build a decent ski resort, but darn if it isn't one of the nicest faces I've seen in the southeast for a ski area.
Tory Mountain has one other big advantage going for it: a ski resort has already been built there. The trails were cut and the trees were gone, so we're not dealing with older growth forests and, presumably, unless the northern spotted salamander is vastly expanding its range, the EIS statements from the early 80s application are still somewhat valid.
You're right that Over the Edge didn't come out well, but the two intermediate runs certainly did. That and if you look around Wisp's website, they mentioned that they are envisioning the terrain getting steadily more difficult as they build west. We'll have to see what they have in store with the next phase. One other thing to consider: in their master plan, they are leaving a 500 acre area as open space for "wilderness" sports such as hiking and mountain biking. It's not huge, but it's a lot more than most real estate oriented resort firms would consider including in their plans.
I wish they could get 2000 feet of vertical out of Tory, that is certainly the biggest asset MPC has going for it. But if they did something similar to Tory that they've done to Wisp- three faces, multiple places for skiers to go, a concentrated resort village (in the works), fall line intermediate and expert runs, things like that- the ski area would be, even with only a 1000 foot vertical (much less a 1200 or 1400 foot vertical) one of the best and perhaps the best in the south. A mountain is only part of the story. What an owner can do with the mountain is even more important. And like I said, I'm not enamored with what Bill Bright did with Winterplace. I just see Marsh Mountain (Ms. Meyers?) as the better bet for building a quality four season resort.
To be fair, and if you are going to mention comparing Winterplace to any resort -- remember -- Bill Bright purchased the resort in the early 90s. It was originally opened in 1982-83.
He was not responsible for the layout of the resort.
He has only made 4 major changes at the resort: closing Nightmare, adding 2 new lifts, opening Woods Run (one of the best @ WP), and building the Snowtubing park/ Mountain House.
My urban hunter friends used to bag the BIGGEST deer right behind the apt complex that i lived at in beltsville,md! With that said I TOTALLY understand what you are saying Johnf.I feel ya...I do love the Westv Va experience.I,m concerned that even without the ski area the place will still get populated.I know the potential WV has as a ski state & when i travel & get scoffs at the mention of
wv it drives me mad!RogerZ,how do you base your comments that MPC has no terrain??? You need to sit on my deck with a good set of binoculars...Forget your topo maps.There is SOOOOO Much Terrain when you take in the big picture its UNBELIEVABLE!There is much more terrain than will ever be developed because of the "Wild & Wonderfull" factor.Go back to the original map...a north facing slope with a lift going up to the 4400' west ridge. An 8 person Gondola going straight up the middle from 2500' to 4702'...Build the gondola station up on a 50 foot mound & you squeeze even more vert out of the place. Another lift going up to a 4600' point on the east ridge...add a bunny slope fill in the rest & i challenge you to find me better terrain south of killington! I hope tory gets built but not at the expense of MPC...That would still leave West Va as a Half Assed ski State!I mean HALF DONE! Johnf,With or without MPC i still could'nt hunt there...its all private prop!..+ can you hunt in the Dolly sods?...+ you will still be able to smell the smoked sausage on 93 if MPC gets built & you will still be able to slowly crawl up your 1000 vert of Timberline paradise...because they will never get a new lift!!!!(Hopefully Murpheys law kicks in on that remark)...PS MRZ Your great uncle..Buck Rogerz the astronut
thought it would be easier & more practical to head to the Moon(tory) instead of Mars(MPC)..Now we are stuck there!
... loud ... noises! I ... love ... lamp! I love carpet!
Thanks WP, was not aware of that. Ok, that leaves Bill Bright at least as a blank slate for what he'd build. In this case, that's not a bad thing.
Andy- look at the map, not your back porch. Eyes can be deceiving:
http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.asp...cHarman%7cWV%7c
You will note several factors that complicate building on MPC. First, the entire mountain falls into three significant creek drainages, which are natural traps for terrain. Second, the parts that don't fall into these drainages only reach elevations of 4200-4400 feet before flattening out, a full 300-500 feet below the much-ballyhooed summit of MPC. Third, note well that with the exception of your 4702 foot point, NOTHING crosses the 4400 foot elevation without being unskiably flat. And your 4702 foot elevation is what falls into the Flatrock Run.
The resort would demand a series of cross-fall line runs, many of which would be brutally cold as they travese a 4600 foot plateau. This is going to require a lot more cut and fill than would normally be required from a more consistent fall line, which will complicate the EIS significantly.
This doesn't even begin to mention the deterioration in quality terrain you're going to have once you drop below 3000 feet. The bottom 500 feet will be on-again, off-again quality skiing. If they drop much lower than 2500 feet it's going to get even mushier. And, to top it all off, most of the terrain below 2800 feet is open fields right now. It will take 20 years or so for the trees to grow up to provide shade- until then the lowest elevated terrain on the entire mountain is going to be exposed almost all day to the sunlight. The average temp in January is going to be about 36 degrees. You will be skiing on an almost perpetual freeze-thaw cycle.
So most of MPC has skiable verticals between 1200-1400 feet, but OVERALL there is a 2200 feet of vertical from the highest point to the lowest point. There *may* be a couple of 1500 foot vertical expert runs, just like Snowshoe. How much different would MPC ski than Tory Mountain, if Tory is skiing between 1000-1400 feet on its different sections? It wouldn't ski that differently at all, that's the answer.
To top it all off, all of this is beyond speculation- it's most likely wishful thinking. The last any of us had heard, Bill Bright was in negotiation for terrain adjacent to the actual summit of MPC:
http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.asp...cHarman%7cWV%7c
Look closely at this. This drainage is even narrower than the north facing slope and tighter, has no increase in vertical skied on a single run without long traverses across the plateau, the fields rise to an even higher elevation on this face, and it faces northwest- the prevailing wind direction in the winter. Whatever snow doesn't get blown straight off the ski slopes will cling as ice so that skiers can endure the 20-40 below windchills of mid-January on the Roaring Plains. Wow does that sound like fun.
I'm not writing this to say that MPC is a terrible idea. I'm writing it to say that MPC is no panacea. It's going to take some very dedicated and creative work to get this ski area to ski well, and the work that's going to need to be put in is going to be challenged severely by environmental groups. This is not a natural gimme for a great ski resort. This is a demanding and extremely expensive engineering problem. Given the ecosystem of MPC and the need for high quality skiing in our region, we deserve better than to just blindly cheer whatever someone might be able to string up the side of this hill. And, frankly, if simpler and comparative skiing can be built in virtually the same climate, why build MPC? So that on paper we can match Okemo? That's not good enough.
ps- this:
http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.asp...hitetop%7cVA%7c
is what a gimme ski resort face looks like. If MPC looked like this, it'd already be a ski resort.
RogerZ, you're right on all counts. I've driven, mt biked, and hiked all over that area for 30 years, and, while the elevation delta is impressive, there are many challenges with the terrain. The two most problematic are the steep creek drainages between the ridges and the plateau on top of the mountain. Running a ski trail to the very top of MPC would make no sense at all. You could come down the crest of the ridges, but then you have to drop off one side or the other. And, as you mentioned, there really isn't much advantage to putting in runs below 2500 - this problem can be seen at the bottom of Cupp/Shays everytime there is a thaw.
Another issue is the small, tight stream valley at the base. Red Creek has experienced numerous flood events, so building next to it is out of the question. However, significant land would be needed to support a development of this magnitude, for everything from real estate development to parking, maint. facilites, and amenities to sewage treatment, snowmaking lakes and other services. I just don't see where this could fit into the narrow valley.
There's lots of reasons the last folks who tried this settled on Job Knob (Tory Mtn). The fact that they cut the trails and even ran a skiing operation for a year suggests that the plan could be viable. By comparison, starting from scratch on an ecologically sensitive and geologically challenging site like MPC would be an undertaking of monumental proportions.
Quote:
He has only made 4 major changes at the resort: closing Nightmare, adding 2 new lifts, opening Woods Run (one of the best @ WP), and building the Snowtubing park/ Mountain House.
What's the story with Nightmare? Was that the run that used to be under the lift to the summit?
Yep, Nightmare was the trail underneath lifts 3/9 going to the summit.
I also forgot that 96/97 was also the time that Ridge Runner was opened (same year as Wood's Run).
Quote:
.. Job Knob (Tory Mtn).
Where is (was) this? I've seen many references to Tory here, but don't know anything about it.
It's just south of the 33/32 intersection in Harman, WV. At one time, you could clearly see the slopes from 33 as you crossed Spruce mountain west of Seneca Rocks. Go to maps.google.com enter Harman, WV. Hit the Satellite button in the top right, then scroll just a bit south. You can clearly see the remnants of the slopes falling straight down the fall line on the north slope of Job Knob.
For another view, here is a terraserver photo...
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=13&Z=17&X=392&Y=2689&W=1
Wow, thanks,
I wonder if this is visible coming down to 33 from Sink sof Gandy? I recall seeing some skiable looking terrain there.
This looks like it faces south?
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=harman,+wv&ll=38.874396,-79.524879&spn=0.031232,0.102413&t=h&hl=en
The Google Earth (and Keyhole, for that matter) images make it look backwards. Take a look at the Terraserver image and it's in some ways more clear. You can see the access road coming up from 33 with 2 switchbacks as it ascends, the whole "base area" and even the lift lines that were cut. The slopes run to about 12 degrees off of due north.
The terrain, while not really steep for the most part, is perfect ski hill stuff - very consistent from top to bottom with some rolls and variation. In an ideal scenario, you could cut some great blacks off the eastern ridge, which would also pick up a few hundred feet of additional vertical.
All it would take is water and money. LOTS of money.
Tory is defenitely visible from rt 33 as crossing over Allegheny mt. Coming from the east as you cross over the top of the mountain look to the left and you can see the slopes that have been cut. I have been across that road many times and never noticed it until this year when I was actually looking for it. Also looking at some topo maps of the area show some small water ponds already in the base area.
Another thing I noticed on the topo is the area to the east of Job Knob (Tory) is part of the seneca/spruce national recreation area and would be impossible to expand onto.
Dave
80 degrees today in fl! You still down here Z to enjoy?Appreciate your research & posts Z. After cking all the topo's...North face of MPC..Nw face,Tory & even another look at Brierpatch Mtn I still feel the N-Face of Mpc would be 1st choice with the NW face 2nd & tory a close 3rd.I feel that with the topography of the mtns surrounding the NW face(Hightop ect..")the winds funnel differently than say the valley.+ there might be some blocking effect. This feeling was reinforced by actually watching the weather there live during late Oct,Nov & Early Dec. & the fact that Bill Bright & his research team were pleased with the results of the weather instruments that are placed sratagically on the mtn. I also feel that with modern science the slopes that would be cut on MPC would be much better than slopes on tory that were designed & cut in the early 70's!...Whitface has always looked awesome to me, but the southern mtn's are much windier & get much less Natural Snow....SOOO taking another look at Tory shows the Main north facing slopes with 1200' of Vert,But have room for 1 or 2 east facing 1500'vert runs...not bad butBuild Tory & everything fills up from the valley south to Harman anyway.....Wisp has a 2400' base...any complaints there?..MPC gets more snow than any mtn south of Killington & talking to some backtrackers up at Timberline not long ago & contrary to some thinking around here...The mtn holds its snow like no other in the region!...HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone!!
Ps..The runs at tory follow one another at pretty consistent pitches...looks boring...whereas MPC would have Dips, turns, cutoffs,drops & a few flats....powder stashes!!Would ski much bigger than Tory.....Agree to dissagree???
Quote:
the fact that Bill Bright & his research team were pleased with the results of the weather instruments that are placed sratagically on the mtn.
Where did you get this information? This reeks of being completely made up, or at best one of those great rumors we hear a lot of on this website.
It isn't Briarpatch where Tory is located. As far as we know, Bill Bright doesn't own anything on the north face. You're looking at the wrong face on MPC and the wrong mountain owned by Marsh Mountain, making statments about Bill Bright's research weather research team that no one else but you seems to have heard, telling us what you "feel" about the ability to cut new runs on a mountain, and so on. It's pretty much impossible to argue with you, except as follows:
Andy, you're full of hot air. A top research team from the CIA has been conducting weather experiments using chips in the head of people who don't even know it, and it has revealed that while there is some hot air blowing from the new subdivisions around the base of MPC, the coldest mountain on the east coast is Tory. It holds snow until June but you can't see it from the valley, and skis like Vail but without the wind, which stops 100 yards short of the peak and deposits tons of fluffy lake effect snow when the temp is about 25 degrees F. Trust me, I once saw this mountain from a ridgeline, in August, and there was STILL snow on it. A local bear hunter once got stranded up there in waist deep snow in October, and a beaver trapper drowned in an avalanche down one of the numerous natural chutes available. The topo maps are all deceiving, because I said so. Anyway, I have it on good authority that the salamanders are arming themselves and plan to start a series of guerilla actions against valley residents who support MPC. Let's save lives and have a great ski mountain by not building there!
Z..no Duh brierpatch is adjacent to Tory,which is actually Job Knob! I've posted enough times on the geogrophy of the region to let you know that i know what i am talking about!! geezy wheezy Dude.I knew about MPC while you was still in your Mammy's drawers! I brought up the north facing slope a million times in the past saying that it would be a better option than Bill(William) Brights proposed area on the NW side of MPC! Where you been.....Deep in your own thoughts obviosly! I heard the info about the weather stations right from the horses mouth on a radio interview with Mr. Bright himself...& talking to Chip Chase of Whitegrass & after asking him which piece of realestate in West Va recieved the most snow...Without stuttering he said "MOUNT PORTE CRAYON" & yeh is it a fetch to think that modern technology cannot figure out how to better design a ski area? Can anyone tell me that the slopes allready cut on Tory back in the early 70's are the best option for the Mtn now? If the answer is yes then the mtn SUCKS!! Look Roger you are a smart Dude...much smarter than me , but i feel that you let your stubberness or hatred get in the way of your judgement....like talking to a Democrat or something....Hope to have a beer with you at my new digs within view of MPC 1 day!
Check your earlier post Andy, you clearly said "Brierpatch." As far as clouding your judgment, ever since you got ripped that someone wouldn't sell their property right away to Bill Bright you've sounded more like a temper tantrum throwing crybaby than a rational human being. There's no debating with you, just your point of view and to hell with anyone who might have the slightest reservation otherwise. I'm neither for nor against MPC, but you can't even acknowledge the slightest difficulty with this resort. So don't give me this crap that ANYONE on this board is more stubborn than you are about this issue.
Yeh..CK out my post...I said that i had cked out my topo maps & that i had even cked out Brierpatch...along with N-face,NW Face & TORY Ect.." Ive talked to you about Brierpatch before but like i said before ..your head was bent forward & you were smelling something funny! Sorry,I cannot think of anything any more intelligent. Look you friggin DIEHARD(pot calling the kettle black!) I,ve passed "Tory" & MPC many times & M
PC justs stands out as a special Mtn.....I am fed up with you, so i am challenging you to a snowball fight at high Noon in front of Timberline Lodge sometime SOON!
Actually there is another mis-truth in there too. MPC isn't the location that receives the most snow in WV. Rather Pickens, WV (southwest of Elkins down around Tygarts Valley) has been documented throughout the past several decades as receiving the most amount of snow, even though it's elevation is a bit more less than MPC.
Baywalker...who have you been talkin to..RogerZ?..Ive read these posts by you all about PICKINS & for the last 3 years i have been keeping up with the talleys & canaan has still got the place beat, let alone MPC! + we are talking potential ski mountains anyway...67"'s at canaan valley floor...what has pickins recieved so far this year?..If you do not respond Baywalker...I rest my case
Pickens elevation is approximately 3838'. I thought I would correct that after looking that up.
Anyway based on the NOAA's website and historic information with recorded history for Pickens going back 10 years with Canaan Valley's going back 48 years, the mean yearly snowfall for Sept-May for both is 120.9" and 124.5" respectively. That averages out to be a 15.11" and 15.56" respectively per month. Remember though those figures are based on the average snowfall from recorded years.
However I take that with a grain of salt as the most recent records for Pickens online is going back 10 years, but written records have shown Pickens, WV to have received the most snowfall in WV history in a period of 24 hours. That was 67" in 1955 I believe. I'd have to check on that.
Anyway this thread is for Roger's enjoyment, not the feeding of delusions of others.
Ahhh ain't that special,Roger got a buddy...even got a smiley face...that was cute! Anyway Pickens is 2880'not 3838'& yes they did get a monster snowstorm but CKing thier 40 year ave I see they have a 159.7 yearly ave with 263 inches bieng the highest recorded annual snowfall....Sounds EXACTLY like Canaan Valley!You & Roger were going back & forth back in feb 04 on this matter when i tried to butt in saying that Kumbrabow state park had the highest recorded annual snowfall of 301.4 inches & was prob the snowiest place in West Va.You all were just to into each other & too blind with Pickenitas to even respond. A friend that worked at Timberline told me that they recorded a 320 inch snowfall on top of thier mountain (95/96) 350 on top of MPC?..wouldn't be a stretch! Anyway we are all just blessed & lucky to be having this "ski area debate" in the 1st place. Without the highlands we would be just talking about the slush & mud building up at the Blueridge areas that only recieve maybe 35 to 40 inches a year. While the lowlands melt, Canaan squeezed out a half inch yesterday & a few inches earlier on. It will start snowing up there towards the end of the week & might not stop for a few days whereas the lowlands will just be lucky to make snow...So I'm glad we had this debate & if i pissed anybody off...Remember..its better to be pissed off than pissed on!Peace in the Mid East! Thats the Mid atlantic folks!...No more responses from me...this post is played out
Isn't Homebiscuit just a peach, Brad? Makes you want to go give him a warm fuzzy hug. I'm just thrilled that if they ever build MPC there will be thousands more people just like him in WV. Oh boy.
Will they be driving their land rovers and hummer H3's up to the top of MPC to get to the 1.5million dollar 2 story mini condo toasting champagne and acting as if they own it all and are the greatest?
Now where did my automatic nailgun get to again?
Probably... they'll also be writing 50 dollar checks to the Wilderness Conservancy and arguing that building Tory Mountain will "destroy the character" of Tucker County.
They can always write $50 checks to the savelostriver.org cause. :P
