Whitetop would not be the natural snow mecca of the Mid-Atlantic- at the summit it only gets 80-100 inches of snow on average, much less at the base. But a 2000 foot vertical sitting almost directly off I-81 and I-77 would end every southerner's weekend trips to Snowshoe in a heartbeat. The market potential is astounding- Charlotte and Raleigh both about two hours away, Atlanta 5 hours or so. The key would be installing THE snowmaking system- take what 7 Springs has and multiply its power. I'd like to see a system that could pump out two inches of snow an hour on half the terrain at a time. So if I was going to build at Whitetop, the first thing I would spare absolutely no expense on the snowmaking system, and I would upgrade it mercilessly every time there was an advance in technology.

That said, that second photo was beautiful. For those who haven't been to Whitetop and Mount Rogers, they are every bit as alpinish as their more northerly neighbors in WV, and even more so in some places. The summit of Mount Rogers is akin to walking into the temperate rain forests of the northwest. I think a ski mountain there would do quite nicely.

Buckhorn would be subsidized by all the profits from Whitetop and laundered funds from a moonshine operation.

I like the idea of tapping the financial resources of the local hooch industry. One could bankroll quite a project. The next time I go that way I'll have to look at these hills. They sound too good to be true.....if only 200 miles further north....now I'm dreaming! Who owns the land?

Depends on which hill you're talking about. Buckhorn is national forest but surrounded by large private holders- you can't access the mountain without going through private property to get to it (unless you hike all the way up the ridge, which would be something like 20 plus miles). Whitetop is strictly in the National Recreation Area (and isn't skiing a national recreation? Fits perfectly with the purpose of the park, I say!). Other mountains listed; I dunno, but since Teeter owns pretty much everything north of Snowshoe, including the Sinks of Gandy, my guess is that he has a solid part of Pharis Knob, too.

The topo map shows the national forest boundary running right along the ridge of Buckhorn with the north face being outside the forest. I thought the north face was privately owned.

Did anyone else notice the article in the Wash. Post today about the administration/Agriculture Dept. openning up considerable Forest Servce (national Forests) for roads, recreation, etc.. George Washington National Forest was one mentioned. This might help with the development of new ski area in the mid-Atlantic...perhaps Whitetop??
The Colonel

WARNING: [rant on]

I think people ought to take another look at the photos of Blue Knob .. -this- is 'recreational' development and, oh by the way, lets just get some of these extra trees out of your way or maybe a little mountaintop strip mining. We have off-roaded in Washington and it is truly a wild and wonderful place. It makes me sick to think this beauty will be commercialized, sanitized and porta-pottied for the masses too lazy to get off their backsides to, walk, climb, hike in other than their flip-flops.

The parks and conservancies of WV and Eastern VA are among the last bits of true wilderness left in the MidA. If you want more ski slopes then pressure the resorts that already exist to expand rather than doing a "Blue Knob' on other mountains.

BTW .. I lived in Greece for 26 years and I can tell you 1st hand what happens when wilderness areas are opened for roads, logging and development. It sure isn't pretty; loss of habitat and disappearance of wildlife, erosion so extensive that trees cannot get a foothold, pollution of reservoirs by runoff from farm chemicals and factories, reduction in ground water in the aquifers ... I could go on at great length. Up until the last century Greece's mountains were forested and its plains were fertile ... now, about the best thing you can say [per a friend of mine] is that 'Greece is the worlds largest rock storage facility'. I don't want to see that happen here.

[rant off]

I could be mistaken Snowcone, but I don't believe the road additions in question are in areas that are designated wilderness. They are in non-designated areas that don't have road service right now. And the "roads" that they are talking of are mostly forest service roads, 4wd logging stuff, not the type that will be littered with Winnebagos running around.

That said, we're just playing around here! None of us have the money to develop a ski resort but hey, you KNOW you look when you skiing! Come on, Snowcone, all those lovely mountains... which one deserves Upper and Lower Rantrun? Maybe to make up for it we should start a thread on which urban center we'd like to see reconverted into wilderness. Would that make everyone happy?

Don't let Murphy's humbleness fool you. He's a multimillionaire and has been surveying mountains for years here in Southwest Virginia, looking for the perfect resort. Here's another potential ski hill, courtesy of him:

http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.asp...Roanoke%7cva%7c

He keeps filing my ideas with the forest service under his name. If he says the north face of Buckhorn is privately owned... well, most likely he already owns it. He's promised I can run the moonshine operation though... I make no vows about whether I am producing 100 proof or 100 percent alcholol if you buy from me.

Please, no one skis in Roanoke... give me a break!

Dammit Roger. You know I like to keep a low profile. But seriously, don't listen to Roger. He already told me he's been drinking hard liquor since early this afternoon.

Snowcone, I agree with you to an extent. A place like Whitetop is a natural treasure as it is and it probably would be a shame to change it. But at the same time, not every ski resort is run like Blue Knob. I read on the description of Elk Mtn. that they've planted over 13,000 trees. Even Winterplace has planted 100's if not thousands of spruce trees.

Kevin, Poor Mtn. may not have the ideal location but it would be awesome terrain. The fact that I can see it from my roof top doesn't hurt either. And the environmentalist probably wouldn't care. There are so many antennas and powerlines up there every flying squirrel and salamander probably already has cancer.

But you live in *Blacksburg* VA, this is not the same as Roanoke. Folks in Blacksburg probably do ski, bike ride, hike, and worry a bit about the enviroment. But folks in Roanoke, no they worry about how to get to the Stadium FASTEST...

And what do people in Crofton, Maryland worry about, Kev?

Here's my main concern. I think this season amply demonstrated that ski resorts in the Mid-Atlantic have developed the skills and technology it takes to beat back a sluggish winter. The fact that only two ski areas closed down for the January melt was pretty amazing- even five years ago we would have lost at least a half dozen of 'em. Snowmaking and grooming technology is only going to get better, logistics and operations will continue to be refined.

We also have a booming population, not only in the DC metro region but throughout the southeast. The folks moving to Raleigh, Charlotte, Atlanta, Asheville, etc. are young, educated, wealthy, and many are relocating from colder climes where ski activity was more than likely part of their entertainment milieu. Roanoke may not be chalk full of skiers, but then again Hartford or Denver wouldn't be, either, if there was no skiing market in the region.

So on the one hand we have a growing level of sophisitication and technology, on the other hand we have a booming and fairly wealthy population that would- I bet- LOVE to have an opportunity to do something in the winter if presented. Based on these two trends, I believe that the Mid-Atlantic and southern ski markets are badly underutilized. The skiing we have is not commensurate with our markets or abilities.

Put simply, it's high time for a 2000 foot vertical ski area in the south. This area should have several top-to-bottom options for all levels of terrain (not just two runs across an overused access road), top-of-the-line snowmaking, a dedicated instructor staff, a base village, and all the other bells and whistles we expect from an Okemo or Sugarbush when we go north. It should be able to comfortably accomodate 500,000 skiers per year on buildout. It might lack the natural snow skiing that most of us on the board crave, but that's the nature of the region.

So when I look around for ski hills, I'm looking for that. I think the south can handle a ski resort of that caliber- heck, it NEEDS a resort of that caliber. The fact that Snowshoe isn't building up their Western Territory is a testament to the conservative tendencies of large corporations ("build what is proven" versus "build to prove"). Bill Bright might be our best hope for this, he probably has enough of the West Virginia wildcat in him to make a run at a resort of this magnitude (and the money to do it). I'd prefer to see it somewhere else than MPC, but where? What other opportunities are there? Every high caliber resort is on a mountain with significant environmental risk association. That's part of the nature of skiing- Snowshoe is in an environmentally sensitive area, too. So is Timberline.

If I had the money, I would look to build a resort like this. It can be done, it should be done, and hopefully someone who is in a better position than us financially (MUCH better position) realizes this. It's time skiing in the Mid-Atlantic/Southeast was pushed to the next level.

I think your potential market doesn't add up and getting there is no cake walk from any big metro area that might help it survive which would be DC. And I still maintain there aren't enough skiers in that direction to make a difference without us - there is not a history of skiing in the region of note unlike say the northeast, its just not part of the culture. If there are skiers, they'd rather go someplace out West for their once a year ski vacation. Now if you put a Biscuit King on the top of the mountain... now you might be on to something.

Ok Roger that does it, give me a few moments to turn my business into a booming billion dollar business, have you and others on here research best potential ski mountains and I shall build it.

Kevin, I think you missed the point of what I was writing. I don't care where the resort goes so long as it gets here. If you don't think there's a ski market in the Mid Atlantic or southeast, write to Intrawest and tell them to fold Snowshoe, because they're wasting their time. And, frankly, the world doesn't revolve around DC, sorry to break the news.

Brad- get your billion and get moving! Just remember: I want the moonshine operation.

Roger, you said it best. All we need to do is find the mountain, find a billionaire, and get doublya to get the legislation to open the area to development. Sounds simple enough to me. But on a serious note, I believe that the south/midatlantic could and would support a major ski hill if it is marketed correctly. What did the folks from snowshoe say? The majority of skiers/boarders want blue/green terrain? Hmmmm...

I think you have to consider the model put forth by Snowshoe -- which apparently is a real estate company first. Therefore you need to consider that aspect of this operation... are their people willing to buy condos and mountain homes on this site, and would there be a healthy rental market?

Or the MRG model, 1750 shareholders, 82,000 skier visits and $300,000 to the bottom line?

That's a good point Kevin. But I think the second home market will be intact for at least 20-30 years, at which point you may have some contraction as the baby boomer population passes on and are replaced by a smaller population of Gen Xers. Maybe. If Gen Xers are richer, they could buy the real estate; otherwise there will be a slowdown in the second home market. Top of the line second home communities will continue to prosper though.

And in that respect, there are two places to be building second homes right now: the southeast and the mountain west, particularly the southwest. I guess the new ski resort would have to sell a resort community- four seasons, fun for all ages, etc. Snow tubing, ice skating, etc in the winter and golf, tennis, horseback etc. in the summer. Being near some interesting towns would be good too.

Shameless plug for Whitetop moment: I think that area has all these things. Abingdon is a pretty cool little town not far from the base of this mountain and, again, good access to the booming southeast market. There's a couple other mountains that Andy has found north of Boone that would be good as well. And I think West Virginia could do fine, too. Davis has certainly improved over the last 15 years, and using that town as an anchor to a National Recreation Area and first rate skiing could be a great opportunity to truly put southeastern outdoor life on the map.

There are a lot of potentials out there. I think the market is there, good mountains too. Brad and Bill Bright are now racing to claim the prize...

Decisions, decisions, decisions... be a billionare and build a ski resort or run for Govenor/State Senator/Senator to help pass legislation favorable to ski resorts yet also favorable to keeping the enviornment from becoming manassas on a hill.

It's a tough life you have there, Brad.

Please accept my appology for this uniformed post yesterday. Somehow I completly missed page two of this thread and didn't realize that a model had been agreed on and this project was moving into the conceptual design phase.

Since the potential funding from Murphy's millions and kwill's still seems very secure, let's keep bawalker in the race for Governor and keep his billion in reserve; it's time to take the box off and complete the concept.

We're dealing w/2000 vertical feet here so I'd like to see the Wild Turkey Tram, which would run from the main lodge to the top and I think since wildcat bright has been dragging his feet w/Almost Heaven, we claim the Statue of Andy for the summit of our mountain and put it right next to the Proofmaster's (RogerZ) Pumphouse.

There would be several choices from the top for advanced skiers/riders-

Mountain Mash Basin, a treeless bowl, instead of frozen waterfalls and big rocks, we'll use a half buried school bus, abandoned restaurant equipment and a pile of tires for terrain features and Grape n Grain Glades which would both hook up at canaanman's curve and then drop into SnowCone's Sanctuary, a natural snow trail.

For beginners, 3% Hollow, a mellow 3.75 mile meander from the top down to Tanquray Terrain Park.

Still lots of work to do, intermediate trails, lodge and pub, ski shop. Let's get busy .

I like the way you think Jimmy. It's good to see some true vision around here. RogerZ has tons of ideas he has yet to reveal. Let's just say there is a way to get a little "Southern Exposure" on the north face of a mountain.

Thank god you didn't forget the pub, Jimmy! You forgot to mention a few old washing machines and refrigerators for the terrain park as well. But in all seriousness some of the terrain heading off Allegheny mtn. toward senica rocks on the left as you do the switchback....if only it wasn't south facing. I've often wanted to do some hiking in that area and EXPLORE the possibilities. A few years back some of the guys (and girls) were hucking the big drifts on the top after the president's day storm. Some of the mountains in that area would do nicely.

He is one in PA for you guys
http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.asp...assport%7cPa%7c

look were it says lincoln, i was wondering how steep it is cause we have skied a chute there when it has enough snow on it(once in a blue moon).

Mountain mash basin..a treeless snowbowl....that is friggin HILARIOUS!!! Was just up at T-line & canaan in gen(getting the house built) On the way Cked out tory,Mount point crayon & the boulder in front of whitegrass & bald Knob...ALL GOOD!! Tory(job Knob) & Brier patch(Harmen) both look really neat poking up high & proud with the high altidude spruce scattered across the tops.Mount porte crayon is surrounded by a huge mound of high country realestate & is most Impressive.The potential for that mountain is unreal.The surrounding roaring plains alpine plateau would be a big draw for the resort(unless acsess is denied.Roger the Mt seems to have more of a nnw verses a nw face which might help.there are different facing slopes to the mt though.There is a pure north facing slope with a 4700' top & a couple of slightly lower peaks with different facing slopes making for what i think could be The best area for a "fantasy ski area" I posted this area a few times with no response.....FLAT ROCK RUN..Ski right down to lanesville i don't think there is a place that can beat it!! Can anybody prove me wrong??...PS Andy = fishnski

Rogerz, have you thought about Stone Mtn in Atlanta? Lot's of potential -- already has a tram to the top, big growing metro area = untapped ski market, interesting & diversionary laser light show for the kiddies and non-skiers, and near a major airport. Did I forget to mention the 1600 ft top, the largest outcrop of granite in the world, and around 800 ft of vert? I mean right IN DOWNTOWN ATLANTA!? All you need is some ice and ...

I'll leave it up to wikipedia for more info on this GEM of a location... (and its somewhat tattered history)

I changed my ISP then i figured it would be a good time to make up another character that seemed as hellbent as I am about getting "Almost Heaven" developed. Force in numbers!Then Glenc got pissed at me (fishnski) & accused me of hiding behind my computer so I decided to come out of hiding!Lets "get er done!" ALMOST HEAVEN before i am there!!

Sorry I've been away... out hiking at Mount Rogers for a few days and now down in FL (ugh) for my little brother's graduation from high school. He's heading off to the Air Force Academy in the fall. Maybe I'll move out to CO to "keep an eye on him."

I really, really like the way Jimmy thinks. I've told Murphy before that, with regard to Buckhorn, I'm aiming for the "least family friendly ski resort in America" award. Busses, runs named after alcohol, and a little "southern exposure" would all contribute nicely. We'll even have a skit every afternoon where... oh what was her name, the gal who "rode" the Timberline lift this winter... chases Canaanman for jumping the Proofmaster Pumphouse. She'll be wearing a cop outfit.

Ok, where was I? Oh yeah. KevR Stone Mtn is just that, it's a stone mountain. There's an 800 foot granite cliff plummeting to an 800 foot base elevation. Maybe in the next ice age it will work- which is imminent if the Gulf Steam gets subvrted- but by then I'll be running an X-C beachside resort in Panama City (it will be kind of Chip Chase meets Jimmy Buffett).

Andy/fishnski- the name makes perfect sense. Should have picked that one out a while ago. I need to get up and see MPC. From the topos, I'm not a fan of the layout- too many narrow creek valleys that force the trails into drainages, or out on very flat and exposed ridges to get the lower pitches in. If Bill Bright really is intent on developing it, I will be interested to see his design strategy.

Have any of yáll ever seen the Iron Mountains in northeast Tennesse? I saw them for the first time yesterday and drove through them today. What an incredible mountain range. The whole ridge that runs from Bald Mountain up to Mount Rogers is probably now my favorite mountain range south of the Adirondacks.

Sorry to everyone for enduring the Glenc episode.Hopefully that is snow melt under the bridge.Roger I feal like the afflac duck....flatrock..flatrock....flatrock run!!!ene of mpc ck it out!(4700' top with multiple lift top areas)

I'd say to look northeast slightly from the Flatrock 4702 summit. The ridge drops down to 4600 feet and at that point there is a long, continuous ridge that descends to the Flatrock Run, to about 2880 if you angle it right. If you start at that 4702 summit, all your runs cycle into the left and right fork and are forced into a narrow drainage. That would result in: a) an extremely difficult environmental approval process as you'd have to either bury the Run or make a really skinny trail for a the runout and b) an extraordinarily crowded novice run coming out of the summit (think of the lower part of Timber Trail at Canaan Valley, but being the service run for maybe a half dozen ski runs).

I like that northwest face that comes off the ridge more- you could start within 50 vertical feet of the summit (the lift could probably get up to that 4650 lip where the ridge splits the right fork of Flat Rock from this northwest ridge), go lower, and have a very, very long and continuous vertical across a 3/4 mile ridge. Net vertical would be almost 1800 feet, and there's a continuous fall line well over 1200 feet of vertical for almost every run imaginable. Only problem is it faces northwest, which the resort developers don't seem to like.

What do you think, fishy man?

Mr Z did you see the 4348 top on the west side of the bowlThat dropped down to 2600'??....+ the 4600' top on the east side? All dropping down to at least 3000'

I was neither pissed nor did I feel you were hiding behind your computer. Just felt like you were a bit critical of a concept without having all the facts and you were a little less than courteous. But the bottom line is---life's too short to hold grudges--this is just one of life's many pleasant diversions dude. If words on a screen got my blood pressure up, I'm doomed to an incredibly short existence. Work has enough stress to tide me over...I'm just here for talk of cold beer, deep powder and bikin clad women riding the lifts at Tline. Keep smilin'...glad to see you back out of "hiding".

I will sleep well tonite...thanks for your post & i will try to slow down on any future posts to make sure I'm saying it correctly & not offending anyone!

Jimmy--yup, just couldn't pass up that season pass rate for Tline. Less than $900 for a family of 4 where it would have been about $1200 at CVR. I still love the varied terrain of CVR, the lodge and the lack of lines but Tline's steeps are a blast for the oldest boy and I. We venture over 5 or 6 times through the season but CVR was our season pass base. Our 11 year old and the wife love CVR's trails (not too agressive and much wider). We're looking forward to doing TLine this season as our base and are especially curious to see the new trail forecasted for 05/06. Looks like a partial blue top easing into a gentle green 1/3 of the way down. Any inside scoop on their rating for it yet?

I do hope TLine modifies their grooming a bit this year. Those crazy whale backs were a little goofy. Too close together for my tastes. Wish they'd just give it a groom once a decent base gets laid in and let it bump up naturally over the course of the season. I know some are big fans so each to his own thing...just not my cup of tea. I can ski it...just not as much fun for me as opposed to the normal bumps and grooves. Maybe I'm just getting soft as the years get on.

Anyway...hope to see you on the slopes this season.

Glennc, what I saw of the lower part of New Trail (mebbe someone should start a post to name it, i'm sure there'd be some interesting suggestions), looked green w/consistant slope, sounds like the top may be greenish blue. My hope is that it is in between Sally and DewDrop challenge-wise......I kinda missed CVR this year, didn't seem to me that they ever got real open this past season though, what's up w/their snowmaking? As far as the Whales, i doubt you're getting soft, ya know i'm a big whale fan. Just give them another chance, they're really quite pleasant creatures once you get to know them . See ya

It's kind of strange....once the ski season ends, lots of folks seem to abandon the forums at DC Ski. Wonder what's up with that???? Just because it's green outside doesn't mean that we stop living, breathing, dreaming, eating, drinking.....skiing. I guess they're too busy planting beans and tomatos. Me, I prefer to daydream about the perfect ski mountain when I travel to and fro, wondering if anyone has ever made tracks on this hill or that mountain. I guessit's the romantic in a true snow lover.

Yeah kim, it's quiet around here during the unseason. I'm still cleaning up stuff i let go last fall. Romantic or addict, guess that depends on your pov. Me i'm here to feed the addiction.

Wonder if Moonshine Mountain should be an upside down resort?

Moonshine Mtn? Why not. If they can make pineapple upside down cake, why not a ski area?