So ...

New COVID-19-related restrictions went into effect in Pennsylvania this past Friday, November 20.  Those of us who live out-of-state must have a negative covid test administered within 72 hours in order to enter Pennsylvania.

A few matters to consider, most of which are well known to those here:

1. Day trippers represent much of the skiing in PA.  A substantial proportion of the ski traffic to Pennsylvania ski resorts consists of day trips by residents of MD, VA, OH, and DC.  I expect that this is especially true for areas not in the Poconos or Laurel Highlands; e.g., Liberty and Whitetail.
2. Rapid tests can be expensive and difficult to obtain.  I live in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley and had to pay $70, which was not covered by insurance, for test results that would permit me to visit Maine in September.  I also had to drive 40 miles for the rapid test, because it wasn't available locally.  The cost, distance, and time required make getting the required test every time I want to ski for a day impractical.
3. Results are not always easy to obtain quickly.   A friend in Philadelphia reported that he couldn't get test results faster than 4-5 days, which made results useless for his planned out-of-state travel.
4. Epic Pass refunds are no longer available.  Epic offered a refund on their 2020-21 ski pass purchases until some time in September.  (I decided to keep my Epic Northeast Midweek Pass then because, even if I lost VT and NH, I would be able to ski at my home areas - Whitetail and Liberty.)  Epic passes are now not refundable unless the holder suffers an injury or serious illness, or has a job transfer.

As a Shenandoah Valley (Virginia) resident who takes day trips to Whitetail and Liberty and makes 1-2 longer trips to the Northeast, my Epic Pass is virtually useless for 2020-21.  

Any ideas about the likelihood of getting Vail/Epic to change their refund policy?  Any ideas about who we should flood with letters and emails?  Is there anyone interested in doing so?

Woody

(typo edited:  revised "trade" to "travel")

Woody thank you for that.  Well written.  

For me, if I take a test I cannot go to work until the result is in hand. 

be well

Ed

Over 6 months ago I warned about the mega passes and gave reasons to not buy this season while another kept posting information and pushed  the pass and that person ended up being a poster of the month!,, think about that,  makes you wonder how that happened, is it all about advertising, 

why in the world would Vail change their refund policy?....  people had plenty of time to take my advice 

It was ultimately up to every individual to make their own choices with the circumstances being uncertain, at best.  To imply that DC Ski is promoting certain posts for financial reasons is pretty unfair and certainly unnecessary.    

Vermont wrote:

Over 6 months ago I warned about the mega passes and gave reasons to not buy this season while another kept posting information and pushed  the pass and that person ended up being a poster of the month!,, think about that,  makes you wonder how that happened, is it all about advertising, 

why in the world would Vail change their refund policy?....  people had plenty of time to take my advice 

Leo wrote:

It was ultimately up to every individual to make their own choices with the circumstances being uncertain, at best.  To imply that DC Ski is promoting certain posts for financial reasons is pretty unfair and certainly unnecessary.    

Vermont wrote:

Over 6 months ago I warned about the mega passes and gave reasons to not buy this season while another kept posting information and pushed  the pass and that person ended up being a poster of the month!,, think about that,  makes you wonder how that happened, is it all about advertising, 

why in the world would Vail change their refund policy?....  people had plenty of time to take my advice

Vermont, Perfect you are not!

The Colonel wrote:

Leo wrote:

It was ultimately up to every individual to make their own choices with the circumstances being uncertain, at best.  To imply that DC Ski is promoting certain posts for financial reasons is pretty unfair and certainly unnecessary.    

Vermont wrote:

Over 6 months ago I warned about the mega passes and gave reasons to not buy this season while another kept posting information and pushed  the pass and that person ended up being a poster of the month!,, think about that,  makes you wonder how that happened, is it all about advertising, 

why in the world would Vail change their refund policy?....  people had plenty of time to take my advice

Vermont, Perfect you are not!

Definitely not, never would even think I was good , it’s people who can afford the best who count on me and  rely on information to make the best choices for their families ie the smartest people in the country, my hope is this forum steps it up and takes it to the next level ie NYskiblog where they gave away an indy pass,  so I can pass along the good word about this site

Vermont wrote:

"it’s people who can afford the best who count on me and rely on information to make the best choices for their families ie the smartest people in the country"

What?

Even the "smartest people in the country" ie Virologists/Immunologists, whom everyone has relied upon have been wrong about Covid-19 and it's impact on society. Governor's make decisions on what they currently believe is in the best interest of their citizens. They are human  and also make mistakes. Those CEO's who run the various ski resorts follow the current protocol but are in business to make money. There are too many changing variables to predict what will happen this season. Life is full of risks. Does it make sense to have bought an Epic or other pass this season taking all of the considerations mentioned? Unless you have a crystal ball to know what will happen day to day or week to week it's all a crapshoot.

Leo wrote:

It was ultimately up to every individual to make their own choices with the circumstances being uncertain, at best.  To imply that DC Ski is promoting certain posts for financial reasons is pretty unfair and certainly unnecessary.    

Shotmaker wrote:

What?

Even the "smartest people in the country" ie Virologists/Immunologists, whom everyone has relied upon have been wrong about Covid-19 and it's impact on society. Governor's make decisions on what they currently believe is in the best interest of their citizens. They are human  and also make mistakes. Those CEO's who run the various ski resorts follow the current protocol but are in business to make money. There are too many changing variables to predict what will happen this season. Life is full of risks. Does it make sense to have bought an Epic or other pass this season taking all of the considerations mentioned? Unless you have a crystal ball to know what will happen day to day or week to week it's all a crapshoot.

I agree with both Leo and Shotmaker.  Although the science has been clear that the pandemic is serious, its exact nature, severity and extent - and their effects on the 2020-21 ski season - have truly been uncertain.  Or, as Shotmaker put it, a crapshoot.  

I bought my Epic pass (the Epic Northeast Midweek Pass, for seniors) back in early March 2020 shortly before the first lockdown.  I decided not to cancel this pass by the September 2020 because I believed that I would still be able to use my pass at my home areas (day trips to Liberty and Whitetail) and maybe, just maybe, make a trip to NH where the restrictions are (and remain) somewhat less severe.  

I'll admit to being surprised by Pennsylvania's imposition, starting on November 20, of much more severe restrictions on entry by out-of-staters.  That makes my Epic Pass virtually useless.  Nonetheless, I made my decisions in March 2020 and September 2020 based on the information available and on the uncertainties inherent in a public healthy problem of this magnitude.

Vermont wrote:

Over 6 months ago I warned about the mega passes and gave reasons to not buy this season while another kept posting information and pushed  the pass and that person ended up being a poster of the month!,, think about that,  makes you wonder how that happened, is it all about advertising, 

why in the world would Vail change their refund policy?....  people had plenty of time to take my advice

Vermont made his/her choice.  I made mine.

Under the current passholder agreement that applies to my Epic 2020 pass, Vail/Epic will not issue refunds based on skiers in being shut out of open Vail/Epic ski areas.  Ouch.  Vermont asks, "Why the world would Vail change their refund policy?"  Well Scott articulated the perspective that I was considering when I made the original post in this thread:

Scott wrote:

I think we’ll need more clarity on how the Epic Coverage benefit included with all Epic passes this year applies to this scenario. I don’t have answers yet but will see what I can find. The coverage applies to stay at home orders but it’s not clear if that also applies to “stay away” orders. I don’t think Vail Resorts is looking to upset a lot of their customers, though. They don’t want customers for one year, they want them for many years. 

While the cost will be substantial, Vail/Epic risks a great deal of bad press, ill will, and lost future sales if they don't step up and do something to respond to the unfolding situation for the 2020-21 ski season.  

We will see.

Woody

Leo wrote [in response to Vermont]:

It was ultimately up to every individual to make their own choices with the circumstances being uncertain, at best.  To imply that DC Ski is promoting certain posts for financial reasons is pretty unfair and certainly unnecessary.    

Vermont, I agree with Leo.  Under the guise of claiming truth and strengthening DCSki.com, your comments in this thread impugn the integrity of Scott (the owner and editor) and of those who work in government jobs, accusing the former of being muzzled by advertisers and labeling the latter as lacking accountability in the work they do.  

In my opinion, these comments of yours are inaccurate and out of line.  You claim a pattern in Scott's actions, then you come to a conclusion that I would argue is incorrect, and then you make your accusation public by posting it here.  You dismiss the expertise, dedication, and accomplishments of government workers by asserting that they are not "accountable," when, from my observations, the results of their work are public, and job evaluations are routine and taken seriously, in spite of the frequent policy changes, unfounded criticism, and political grandstanding that government employees generally have to endure as part of their chosen professions.  (I speak as someone who has worked in the private sector for 37 years.)

Vermont, you may well be right that Vail/Epic will not change their policies on refunds for 2020-21 passes.  So be it.  But, as a fellow snowsports enthusiast, I hope you can appreciate the immense service that DCSki.com provides and refrain from the personal attacks.  Please.

Woody

I don't even understand the accusations Vermont is making -- I've looked through past posts trying to figure it out.  I've seen people express opinions in past posts, but not misrepresent facts.  He seems to suggest that someone selected as DCSki's User of the Month is working for and promoting Vail (or something?), which of course isn't true at all.  And DCSki only has a small handful of advertisers -- Vail/Epic isn't one of them.  I foot the bill for the site with my own money (to the tune of thousands of dollars out of my pocket per year) and time (countless hours).  I could generate a lot of revenue by participating in an ad network, but out of principle I don't.  That protects your privacy while underpinning DCSki's editorial independence.  You can check DCSki using The Markup's Blacklight, a real-time website privacy inspector.  DCSki has a 100% clean profile, with 0 ad trackers, 0 third-party cookies, no use of Google Analytics or Facebook tracking, etc.  Now try running Blacklight on virtually any other ski site and see the stark difference.  (One of the sites Vermont referenced uses 6 ad trackers and shares all user page viewing activity with both Facebook and Google, which could then be shared with hundreds or thousands of advertisers.  I'm not going to critique other sites for doing what they need to do to generate revenue, but I think Vermont's concerns may be misdirected.)

The only thing that ever influences DCSki is a commitment to remain independent, provide robust and objective coverage, and ensure that DCSki's forum contributors remain professional and respectful to each other, even when they disagree.  DCSki has a 25+ year track record of doing that, and I stand by that record.

I debated about weighing in on this at all, but it seems he's continually making insinuations about another DCSki forum user (someone who has been a highly respected member of our community for a long time), and I believe that is unfair, unwarranted, and inappropriate.  It's fine to disagree with the opinions of other forum participants, but this goes beyond that.  Vermont: Once again, I welcome your participation and voice in these forums and value your perspective, but please adhere to the spirit of our Terms of Use and be respectful to fellow community members.    You're welcome to reach out to me via Direct Message if you have questions or want to discuss this further.

Scott wrote:

I think we’ll need more clarity on how the Epic Coverage benefit included with all Epic passes this year applies to this scenario. I don’t have answers yet but will see what I can find. The coverage applies to stay at home orders but it’s not clear if that also applies to “stay away” orders. I don’t think Vail Resorts is looking to upset a lot of their customers, though. They don’t want customers for one year, they want them for many years. 

Following up on this, I reached out to Jamie Storrs, Senior Manager of Communications for Vail Resorts, Eastern Region, to find out how they are currently responding to increased visit restrictions in some states.  He indicated that they are seeing these restrictions occur in many states that they operate in.  I also asked whether the reduced night skiing hours at Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail this winter are temporary or expected to become permanent.  Here are Jamie's responses:

• "Living in a state that is affected by the out-of-state visitor restrictions does not preclude someone from making a reservation in our system, or from visiting our PA resorts if they comply with Pennsylvania's interstate travel guidelines. We understand the importance of Pennsylvania's travel guidance and will require everyone advised for their compliance."
• "We have no plans to modify the terms of our Epic Coverage program."
• "As for the change in hours, there are a number of operational changes that we have made for this season, given the realities of operating in these current times. As with all these changes, we will be evaluating them at the end of the season as to whether or not we will continue to keep them in place."

Scott, thank you for everything you do with this site.  Sorry you've had your integrity questioned.

Here's to wishing you and your family a healthy and happy Thanksgiving!

Scott wrote:

... And DCSki only has a small handful of advertisers -- Vail/Epic isn't one of them.  I foot the bill for the site with my own money (to the tune of thousands of dollars out of my pocket per year) and time (countless hours).  I could generate a lot of revenue by participating in an ad network, but out of principle I don't.  That protects your privacy while underpinning DCSki's editorial independence.  You can check DCSki using The Markup's Blacklight, a real-time website privacy inspector.  DCSki has a 100% clean profile, with 0 ad trackers, 0 third-party cookies, no use of Google Analytics or Facebook tracking, etc.  Now try running Blacklight on virtually any other ski site and see the stark difference...

Happy Thanksgiving, Scott. I just wanted to take the time to highlight the above portion of your previous post to say how much I appreciate your ad policy. Thanks again for all you do to provide us with this forum to share our love of the sport. 

Hi Scott, I am lucky my site costs 200$ a year on skidome but it is also a journal for the grandkids as they grow.

I wonder what the float is on 1 million passes? 500 mill gross? I wonder who underwrote the pass insurance policy?

Not just Epic, But Indy and Alterra. 

Many resorts had to cut hours - no employees from foreign countries  - less employee local. 

As for COVID very predictable - 

40% in denial - Denial is a defense mechanism proposed by Anna Freud which involves a refusal to accept reality, thus blocking external events from awareness. If a situation is just too much to handle, the person may respond by refusing to perceive it or by denying that it exists.

This is the current case forecast - if you check CDC lists all source models.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/forecasts-cases.html

or this summary 

This week’s national ensemble forecast predicts that 1,100,000 to 2,500,000 new cases will likely be reported during the week ending December 19, 2020.   

PCR results in MD are 3  to 5 days. 

Peak caseload is still 1st week in January 2021 for PA/MD.

No sign of regular flu on the ILI link yet.

The real issue becomes hospital overload during the peak.

As more cases come more people self-isolate even without mandates.

BE safe and well everyone- 

zardog

Scott wrote:

Scott wrote:

I think we’ll need more clarity on how the Epic Coverage benefit included with all Epic passes this year applies to this scenario. I don’t have answers yet but will see what I can find. The coverage applies to stay at home orders but it’s not clear if that also applies to “stay away” orders. I don’t think Vail Resorts is looking to upset a lot of their customers, though. They don’t want customers for one year, they want them for many years. 

Following up on this, I reached out to Jamie Storrs, Senior Manager of Communications for Vail Resorts, Eastern Region, to find out how they are currently responding to increased visit restrictions in some states.  He indicated that they are seeing these restrictions occur in many states that they operate in.  I also asked whether the reduced night skiing hours at Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail this winter are temporary or expected to become permanent.  Here are Jamie's responses:

• "Living in a state that is affected by the out-of-state visitor restrictions does not preclude someone from making a reservation in our system, or from visiting our PA resorts if they comply with Pennsylvania's interstate travel guidelines. We understand the importance of Pennsylvania's travel guidance and will require everyone advised for their compliance."
• "We have no plans to modify the terms of our Epic Coverage program."
• "As for the change in hours, there are a number of operational changes that we have made for this season, given the realities of operating in these current times. As with all these changes, we will be evaluating them at the end of the season as to whether or not we will continue to keep them in place."

 Thanks, Scott, for taking these concerns directly to Jamie Storrs of Vail Resorts.  I appreciate your getting a response from a person authorized to speak for Vail/Epic.

Mr. Storrs's response about visiting ski areas in states that have strengthened their out-of-state restrictions is, to put it charitably, disappointing.

• "Living in a state that is affected by the out-of-state visitor restrictions does not preclude someone from making a reservation in our system, or from visiting our PA resorts if they comply with Pennsylvania's interstate travel guidelines. We understand the importance of Pennsylvania's travel guidance and will require everyone advised for their compliance."

Actually Mr. Storrs, if the current waiting times for rapid PCR-based test results (at 3-4 days as reported above by ZARDOG for MD) are accurate and representative of our region, those of us living in MD-DC-VA are indeed precluded from visiting Vail's PA resorts until the restrictions are lifted.  Moreover, as I described previously in this thread, the inconveniences and expenses associated with getting the test each time a passholder wishes to ski Whitetail for a day are impractical.  For a test in September, I had to see my family physician first, drive an 80-mile round trip to a test center that had the required rapid PCR test, and pay $70 (not covered by insurance) because I did not have symptoms.

• "We have no plans to modify the terms of our Epic Coverage program."

The situation has changed dramatically since Vail's deadline for rolling over passes to 2021-22 expired in September.  While the terms of Vail's Epic pass sales do not allow purchasers to roll over their passes 'til next year, Vail is going to have many, many season pass holders, me included, holding useless passes that set them back several hundred dollars.  Vail, it's time to reconsider, and to move quickly before incurring the inevitable ill will that will follow your bah-humbug intransigence on this matter.

Woody

I wonder if the “us travel restrictions” or the “stay at home order” would be enough to qualify under the “epic coverage”? Although the wording is a bit vague I have a feeling that if these restrictions are still in place when core season counts that it would be in vails interest to value refund requests.

I’ll be honest I paid very little for my pass this year because Liberty and Whitetail didn’t scan my pass half the week nights I was there, it looks like my insurance covers rapid tests so I might just go that route. The risk in getting covid by going less than a mile out of state lines for an outside activity seems very low... so I’m hoping I can make this work.

itdoesntmatter wrote:

Scott, thank you for everything you do with this site.  Sorry you've had your integrity questioned.

Here's to wishing you and your family a healthy and happy Thanksgiving!

 Scotts integrity was never questioned, it is only one person who was pointed out for continued promotion, it’s like an infomercial , the people I would pass this site too wouldn’t be interested reading that person’s infomercialsI see your not a contributor either how about putting your money where you’re mouth is to see if you think it’s worth it

Vermont wrote:

I want to add the site was okay I dealt with the boring posts from same person but when that person asked for donations, it just really made things look bad, 

So it seems like there's a misunderstanding.  DCSki accepts donations from readers who wish to contribute to the operating costs of the site to help keep the site running.  (Readers who have donated to DCSki get the "Supporter" label next to their name.)  Historically I've never gone out of my way to solicit donations, but readers occasionally encourage other readers to donate to DCSki or mention when they have donated themselves.  I think you may have seen that and thought that a reader was soliciting donations for themselves personally, which to my knowledge has never happened.

Bottom line: if you're civil to fellow community members, you're welcome here.  If you find the content boring or feel the urge to constantly critique other users, this might not be the site for you.  Now let's get back to the topic of skiing, please.

Scott wrote:

Vermont wrote:

I want to add the site was okay I dealt with the boring posts from same person but when that person asked for donations, it just really made things look bad, 

So it seems like there's a misunderstanding.  DCSki accepts donations from readers who wish to contribute to the operating costs of the site to help keep the site running.  (Readers who have donated to DCSki get the "Supporter" label next to their name.)  Historically I've never gone out of my way to solicit donations, but readers occasionally encourage other readers to donate to DCSki or mention when they have donated themselves.  I think you may have seen that and thought that a reader was soliciting donations for themselves personally, which to my knowledge has never happened.

Bottom line: if you're civil to fellow community members, you're welcome here.  If you find the content boring or feel the urge to constantly critique other users, this might not be the site for you.  Now let's get back to the topic of skiing, please.

You’re person of the month posted untrue story about killington no problem there though I guess? Which goes with their narrative of defending Epic pass , Unlike what you chose to do to a non paying person like myself you chose to chastise, why is that,  it’s disheartening posting something then someone follows with lies to debunk information I try to give to your readers to try and find the best way to hit the slopes during these challenges times 

Scott, thank you for hosting this site and for reaching out to Vail, especially since it is impossible to get a hold of anyone there. 

The response that Jamie gave was incredibly disappointing and tone deaf.   I have purchased passes for my family of six at a cost of approximately $1800.  Without a refund or a chance to defer the pass until next season I am looking at either having to eat the full cost, or take Thursday afternoons off from work to get my family covid tested so that we can ski for 6-8 hours at Whitetail or Liberty on a Saturday or Sunday (provided we can get the test results back in time).   I guess maybe they think the other option is for us to just up and move to PA.   On top of that, they have not yet even sent all of our season passes!  This is in addition to waiting for weeks to purchase our passes since we downgraded to the NE Value pass and could not purchase those online using our credits from last season, then having the awesome benefit of waiting hours to reserve days.  If something doesn't change I sadly think that this may be then last time that we ski at the former Snowtime resorts that I have been skiing at since the 90's and taught all 4 of my children to ski there.  It likely will mean a lot less ski days in future years since Massanutten is a longer haul, but I am not sure that I can give Vail another dime of my money if this is how they treat their customers.  

Scott wrote:

Scott wrote:

I think we’ll need more clarity on how the Epic Coverage benefit included with all Epic passes this year applies to this scenario. I don’t have answers yet but will see what I can find. The coverage applies to stay at home orders but it’s not clear if that also applies to “stay away” orders. I don’t think Vail Resorts is looking to upset a lot of their customers, though. They don’t want customers for one year, they want them for many years. 

Following up on this, I reached out to Jamie Storrs, Senior Manager of Communications for Vail Resorts, Eastern Region, to find out how they are currently responding to increased visit restrictions in some states.  He indicated that they are seeing these restrictions occur in many states that they operate in.  I also asked whether the reduced night skiing hours at Liberty/Roundtop/Whitetail this winter are temporary or expected to become permanent.  Here are Jamie's responses:

• "Living in a state that is affected by the out-of-state visitor restrictions does not preclude someone from making a reservation in our system, or from visiting our PA resorts if they comply with Pennsylvania's interstate travel guidelines. We understand the importance of Pennsylvania's travel guidance and will require everyone advised for their compliance."
• "We have no plans to modify the terms of our Epic Coverage program."
• "As for the change in hours, there are a number of operational changes that we have made for this season, given the realities of operating in these current times. As with all these changes, we will be evaluating them at the end of the season as to whether or not we will continue to keep them in place."

 Big issue is employees - when one gets sick or Quranteen you lose that body for 14 days. Not enough employees no lifts run

As for protection, glad I am not the underwriter. in 3 days the general public can reserve a lift. Will see how that goes.

MD did 57,000 test yesterday- tests to have rapid take as an appointment most are filled. good luck PCR return times will grow. Getting a rapid may require a doc visit. It will depend on is doc avail, is test avil and turnaround time. 

will be fubar and a cluster