I'm seeing stuff on Facebook about a fatality on Wagner last night. None of the articles have a lot of details but sources looked like Pittsburgh news sites.
Be careful out there...i'll be thinking of the families involved.
Always, always ski/ride in control!!! Remember the downhill skier has the right of way!!bombing down the hill is stupid and dangerous, not only to self, but to all others should you have an out of control wipeout!
The Colonel
I always thought that if somone where to die or get seriously hurt(Paralyzed) It would be because some dumb teenager jumped of that lift with no safey bar (no one puts the bar down regardless) due to peer presure or some jerry went into the spot and ate it.
On a more serious note this is real sad news and my prayers go out to the familly.
Very sad news, indeed. I was there with my family all day but we were off the hill by 7 PM. By Seven Springs standards, it was not that busy of a day. My condolences to the family and friends. Let us all be safe out there. Look uphill before you begin down and slow down at merge points.
Antoine wrote:
I always thought that if somone where to die or get seriously hurt(Paralyzed) It would be because some dumb teenager jumped of that lift with no safey bar (no one puts the bar down regardless) due to peer presure or some jerry went into the spot and ate it.
On a more serious note this is real sad news and my prayers go out to the familly.
Out west there are multiple fatalities every year. Most of the time the deaths are caused by the skiers/riders losing control on groomed blues and crashing into trees. Death mostly results from blunt force trauma, but not always. I reall an incident about 7-8 years ago at Keystone where a skier on Frenchman lost control and was impaled on a tree branch.
Keystone averages about a death a year. Luckily I am not aware of one this year.
I'll add my prayers to the family.
Does not have to be busy or dark or icy. I was hit from behind on an easy blue, 2 others on the whole slope. sunny, blue sky, great snow. I thought I caught an edge doing a 5 mph drill on side. My worry was her bounce off trail , the 4-foot drop landing on a stone road. Lucky she had not a bump nor tear in clothing.
-in the position I was in I would not see her. - I was clearly using the left side whole 2/3rds open. On a slow family hill.
-no caution ie a yell of LEFT I could have avoided the issue.
Learned a lot from this. Expect the unexpected
560 days skiing and first encounter with a human. Most have no idea of the speeds (most doing 30). Prayers extended to all affected.
skiracerx wrote:
Does not have to be busy or dark or icy. I was hit from behind on an easy blue,
You are right about that. I've been knocked down 6 times over the last 25 years by people hitting me from behind, and I do my best to stay predicatable to people behind me. Three could have been serious due to speed of the hitter, but were not. Three were slow speed. One of the high speed incidents could have pushed me into trees.It's not just out of control boarders either. Of the six knockdowns, 3 were skiers and 3 were boarders.
I've been brushed three times this year. Two of those times the other guy went down. One of them would have been the worst possible crash: head on at a combined speed of about 45.. I had just turned toward the lift loading point and was moving maybe 10 mph when another guy came at me from uphillat about 35 mph. I had about one second to execute an emergency right turn. I moved about two feet right which was just barely enough. He missed me but hit the tail of my left ski and went down. Luckily I'm an old guy with great peripheral vision, great reflexes and superb edge control. I needed all of them to avoid what would have been a truly nasty collision.
A week ago at Snowshoe I noticed several folks rightly called out "on your right (or left)" when passing me. Don't see much of this anymore, should be more, would help reduce accidents! Remember, the downhill skier has the right-of-way!!!
The Colonel wrote:
A week ago at Snowshoe I noticed several folks rightly called out "on your right (or left)" when passing me. Don't see much of this anymore, should be more, would help reduce accidents! Remember, the downhill skier has the right-of-way!!!
Explaining that should be part of every instructor's beginners lesson safety talk. It will become part of mine.
jimmy wrote:
The Colonel wrote:
A week ago at Snowshoe I noticed several folks rightly called out "on your right (or left)" when passing me. Don't see much of this anymore, should be more, would help reduce accidents! Remember, the downhill skier has the right-of-way!!!
Explaining that should be part of every instructor's beginners lesson safety talk. It will become part of mine.
IDK.. I just try to pick a better spot to pass and be moving by fast enough to where there is no way the other skier can cut back in the line I am taking. At least be reasonbaly sure that the person you are hollering at is competent enough not to panik when they get yelled at, or spoken at loudly. I can see a weak skier paniking and falling when tryint to get out of your way too quickly or just plain getting spooked.
The focus should be on teaching and enforcing the skier code, which specifically puts responsibility on the uphill person. If I am skiing in control and not coming too close to you, I shouldn't need to yell on your left or right.
Crowded resorts like 7S if they need to get out there and pull passes on weekends then so be it. Learn to ski in control or don't ski at all.
Leo wrote:
The focus should be on teaching and enforcing the skier code, which specifically puts responsibility on the uphill person. If I am skiing in control and not coming too close to you, I shouldn't need to yell on your left or right.
Crowded resorts like 7S if they need to get out there and pull passes on weekends then so be it. Learn to ski in control or don't ski at all.
Well said, yelling out your location doesnt seem to comply with respecting the downhill skier. Gravity never ceases to work, if you encounter a trail edge to trail edge skier/ boarder, or an unpredictable skier/ boarder downslope of you; you can always stop along the trail edge upslope of them and allow them to get further downslope before turning back down the fall line and proceeding. Collisions are avoidable. In addition to enforcing the code, ski area employees should probably also be talking to the skier/ boarder that is taking up the entire trail about perhaps scaling back to a trail with less slope so that they can work on tighter turns and controlling edges in the fall line. Our crowded slopes are full of a diverse set up skiing and riding ablilities, and just full in general. Stay safe and aware of your surroundings out there, this news is terrible.
Should, could if only they would.
I am not talking about everytime one is skiing past someone on a wide slope; i am talking aobut situations where the person you are overtaking might turn in front of you. It is not a warning to get out of my way and that is how it should be explained, it is a situational thing, you know like a courtesy. Tell me that when on the runout to the lift you are going to stop and wait for slower skiers to get ahead of you........................
jimmy wrote:
Should, could if only they would.
Tell me that when on the runout to the lift you are going to stop and wait for slower skiers to get ahead of you........................
They are the same ones that were ahead of you on the snowy, icy access road that morning that STOPPED (or just went REALLY slow almost stopping) to get stuck just before the crest of the steepest pitch between switchbacks. Folks should be required to wear their Florida plates out on the mountain while skiing..
Put me in the camp that would never call out "on your right" to a downhill skier, under any circumstance. As the uphill skier, you are 100% responsible to avoid a collision (I realize people are not disputing that). To me, that means skiing in control, at a speed where I can avoid a collision no matter what the downhill skier does (stops, turns hard and cuts straight across the slope, etc).
To avoid that collision, I have to be prepared to stop almost instantly, or cut across the mountain (which, in turn, puts me at risk of being hit, but the skiers uphill of me better be in control too). If something is going to impact my ability to do that (a jump, skiing at the edge of the run, speed), I will stop/slow down, and wait for the skier to clear my area. Alternatively, I'll mentally plot another way down the piste.
The only time I should be in close proximity to another skier is either if they're part of my group, they are passing me (in which case they better be prepared to avoid me), or I'm on a catwalk / end of a run, where people generally move pretty slowly.
The one caveat to all of this is people who either lie prone in the middle of the slope (my absolute pet peeve, if not injured), and people that stand around blocking narrow funnel-points (again a peeve). It really sucks to come over a rise and have to react to someone lying prone on the slope (where you can't see them until the last minute), or to ski an advanced slope but have someone block the runout, then have to shed speed and wind up poling.
Reisen wrote:
Put me in the camp that would never call out "on your right" to a downhill skier, under any circumstance. As the uphill skier, you are 100% responsible to avoid a collision (I realize people are not disputing that). To me, that means skiing in control, at a speed where I can avoid a collision no matter what the downhill skier does (stops, turns hard and cuts straight across the slope, etc).
To avoid that collision, I have to be prepared to stop almost instantly, or cut across the mountain (which, in turn, puts me at risk of being hit, but the skiers uphill of me better be in control too). If something is going to impact my ability to do that (a jump, skiing at the edge of the run, speed), I will stop/slow down, and wait for the skier to clear my area. Alternatively, I'll mentally plot another way down the piste.
The only time I should be in close proximity to another skier is either if they're part of my group, they are passing me (in which case they better be prepared to avoid me), or I'm on a catwalk / end of a run, where people generally move pretty slowly.
The one caveat to all of this is people who either lie prone in the middle of the slope (my absolute pet peeve, if not injured), and people that stand around blocking narrow funnel-points (again a peeve). It really sucks to come over a rise and have to react to someone lying prone on the slope (where you can't see them until the last minute), or to ski an advanced slope but have someone block the runout, then have to shed speed and wind up poling.
+1 this. The best solution is to potentially hitting someone or being hit by someone is to not be there in the first place.
I've been hit or been bumped six times in the last year and several near misses. All but one were were snowboarders, not to pick on snowboarders, but just stating the actual events. I started a conversation with the last snowboarder who had a near miss with me n a mid-skill level blue with me how he was doing after he had a major wipeout avoiding me. It turns out this was his first day on the slopes and couldn't turn very well. He also hurt his wrist, so I suggested he head to the ski patrol and then to the easy green slopes to work on his turns and take a lesson.
I'm a fast quick turning skier, so for someone to catch up with me means that they were mostly heading straight down the hill and out of control if they ran into me.
jkaplenk wrote:
I've been hit or been bumped six times in the last year and several near misses. All but one were were snowboarders, not to pick on snowboarders, but just stating the actual events. I started a conversation with the last snowboarder who had a near miss with me n a mid-skill level blue with me how he was doing after he had a major wipeout avoiding me. It turns out this was his first day on the slopes and couldn't turn very well. He also hurt his wrist, so I suggested he head to the ski patrol and then to the easy green slopes to work on his turns and take a lesson.
I'm a fast quick turning skier, so for someone to catch up with me means that they were mostly heading straight down the hill and out of control if they ran into me.
I have never boarded, so maybe someone else can answer this question. Is it more difficult to board slowly, make sharp turns, and stop on a dime on a snowboard, especially on steep slopes? I can slowly pick my way down the edges of the steepest slopes on my skis. I can also make snap turns and stop quickly if needed, even at speed. I rarely (if ever) see a snowboarder do these things. Not saying that the person killed was hit by a snowboarder--I'm just curious.
The19thHole wrote:
jkaplenk wrote:
I've been hit or been bumped six times in the last year and several near misses. All but one were were snowboarders, not to pick on snowboarders, but just stating the actual events. I started a conversation with the last snowboarder who had a near miss with me n a mid-skill level blue with me how he was doing after he had a major wipeout avoiding me. It turns out this was his first day on the slopes and couldn't turn very well. He also hurt his wrist, so I suggested he head to the ski patrol and then to the easy green slopes to work on his turns and take a lesson.
I'm a fast quick turning skier, so for someone to catch up with me means that they were mostly heading straight down the hill and out of control if they ran into me.
I have never boarded, so maybe someone else can answer this question. Is it more difficult to board slowly, make sharp turns, and stop on a dime on a snowboard, especially on steep slopes? I can slowly pick my way down the edges of the steepest slopes on my skis. I can also make snap turns and stop quickly if needed, even at speed. I rarely (if ever) see a snowboarder do these things. Not saying that the person killed was hit by a snowboarder--I'm just curious.
Snowboarders have a blind spot, always looking more towards one side, toe side. As for a quck shutdown/hockey stop, they only have one edge where skiers have two so I would expect twice the stopping distance of a similar ability skier given the same warning.
Reisen wrote:
Put me in the camp that would never call out "on your right" to a downhill skier, under any circumstance. A
I've gotta disagree with you on that one. If I'm behind someone, I won't do it. If I'm next to someone, you better believe that I will.
That snowboarder witha blindspot: well if I've pulled even with him and it looks like he might turn into me, you better believe I will say it.
Just today I had just pulled even with a skier I was on the right. He was on the left. I was a good 30-40 feet right of him when he started making a big turn right at me. He hadn't looked to see if someone was NEXT to him. I said "on your right" to prevent HIM from turning into ME. It worked too. He looked at me and made a shorter turn.
" As for a quck shutdown/hockey stop, they (boarders) only have one edge where skiers have two so I would expect twice the stopping distance of a similar ability skier given the same warning."
Well not exactly. When I hockey stop, one ski is really doing almost all the work.
bob wrote:
Reisen wrote:
Put me in the camp that would never call out "on your right" to a downhill skier, under any circumstance. A
I've gotta disagree with you on that one. If I'm behind someone, I won't do it. If I'm next to someone, you better believe that I will.
That snowboarder witha blindspot: well if I've pulled even with him and it looks like he might turn into me, you better believe I will say it.
Just today I had just pulled even with a skier I was on the right. He was on the left. I was a good 30-40 feet right of him when he started making a big turn right at me. He hadn't looked to see if someone was NEXT to him. I said "on your right" to prevent HIM from turning into ME. It worked too. He looked at me and made a shorter turn.
My honest answer there is you should never be skiing next to someone you don't know. Maybe there's an exception for a catwalk or something, but on a normal slope, there should be distance both horizontally, and vertically.
If someone passes me on the other side of the slope, fine. That happens all the time. But if someone insists on skiing the same speed as me across the slope, I'll slow down and put some distance between us.
Out west, this is easy (big mountains). On the crowded slopes of the mid-atlantic, it's a lot tougher, but still doable.
With friends, I will ski much closer, and will absolutely tell them where I am relative to them at times.
bob wrote:
" As for a quck shutdown/hockey stop, they (boarders) only have one edge where skiers have two so I would expect twice the stopping distance of a similar ability skier given the same warning."
Well not exactly. When I hockey stop, one ski is really doing almost all the work.
How long is that edge compared to a snowboard? Most of them are also in soft boots using strap on bindings, not hard boots with step ins on carving boards.
crgildart wrote:
bob wrote:
" As for a quck shutdown/hockey stop, they (boarders) only have one edge where skiers have two so I would expect twice the stopping distance of a similar ability skier given the same warning."
Well not exactly. When I hockey stop, one ski is really doing almost all the work.
How long is that edge compared to a snowboard? Most of them are also in soft boots using strap on bindings, not hard boots with step ins on carving boards.
My comment referenced the other posters contention that skiers can hockey stop better than boarders simply because skiers have two edges to stop with - which is not the case.
Reisen wrote:
bob wrote:
Reisen wrote:
Put me in the camp that would never call out "on your right" to a downhill skier, under any circumstance. A
I've gotta disagree with you on that one. If I'm behind someone, I won't do it. If I'm next to someone, you better believe that I will.
That snowboarder witha blindspot: well if I've pulled even with him and it looks like he might turn into me, you better believe I will say it.
Just today I had just pulled even with a skier I was on the right. He was on the left. I was a good 30-40 feet right of him when he started making a big turn right at me. He hadn't looked to see if someone was NEXT to him. I said "on your right" to prevent HIM from turning into ME. It worked too. He looked at me and made a shorter turn.
My honest answer there is you should never be skiing next to someone you don't know. Maybe there's an exception for a catwalk or something, but on a normal slope, there should be distance both horizontally, and vertically.
If someone passes me on the other side of the slope, fine. That happens all the time. But if someone insists on skiing the same speed as me across the slope, I'll slow down and put some distance between us.
Out west, this is easy (big mountains). On the crowded slopes of the mid-atlantic, it's a lot tougher, but still doable.
With friends, I will ski much closer, and will absolutely tell them where I am relative to them at times.
Well, I never said that I ski next to anyone for any specific amount of time, did I? However, evertytime I pass someone I am next to him/her for some short amount of time.
bob wrote:
Well, I never said that I ski next to anyone for any specific amount of time, did I? However, evertytime I pass someone I am next to him/her for some short amount of time.
I thought about this for a second, and here's my position:
I'm a road cyclist, and when on the W&OD, I yell out "on your left" dozens of times per ride. The reasons for this are numerous:
- The width of the trail necessitates being within very close proximity to other riders/runners/walkers when passing, and I don't want to scare them if they turn and see someone within a few feet of them.
- The trail is never getting wider, so I have to pass close, and the warning is both to make them aware, and to tell them not to cut me off (ie. step out in front of me, turn left, etc.).
I don't think that's appropriate while skiing.
- Because ski slopes vary greatly in width, but generally are much, much wider than a bike trail, there are lots of opportunities to pass with plenty of room. Slopes are also finite (they have a set point where everyone stops) unlike roads. If the slope is narrow and steep, I would maintain you shouldn't be passing there. If the slope is narrow and flat (like a catwalk), the rules are probably different, but speeds will be much lower, which make things easier (easier to stop if someone cuts you off, less need for other skiers to scrub speed by cutting across a slope, etc).
- The technical part of skiing is much, much harder than road biking. If I'm road biking I can easily look to the side, look behind me, etc. If I'm skiing bumps, on ice, on a technical slope, or preparing to hit a jump, I'm focused downhill exclusively. If you yell "on your right", I'm going to look to my right to see where that came from. That's not a good thing; it could cause a fall, or at the very minimum, is going to disrupt my rhythm.
- Telling someone "on your right" puts the honus on them to avoid a collision, and implicitly asks them not to turn in front of you. In your example, you even pointed out the other skier made a shorter turn as a result. Skiing doesn't work that way; it has clear rules of right of way and for who is responsible to avoid collisions. There should be no need for this if passing. Until you have moved in front of him, he is the downhill skier and has right of way to make his turns as wide as he likes. If he starts his turn before you pass, you need to scrub speed and either let him put some distance in front of you, or cross behind him to the other side of the slope. Yeah, it sucks getting cut off by people that insist on using the entire slope for every turn, but that is their right. If he starts his turn while you're even with him, but in the process of passing him, as long as you're not passing right next to him (again, I would maintain that is never appropriate on a steep slope), the laws of physics dictate that you can't collide (you are moving faster, and in a straight line. He is moving slower, and in a diagonal line toward you. As soon as you're past him, you are now downhill and avoiding you is 100% his responsibility.
- If your reason for doing this is simple self preservation (ie. you don't trust that he will avoid hitting you once you pass), I guess I understand that, but would argue a better tactic is to put as much distance between you and a skier you are passing as quickly as possible.
In summary, I would argue that yelling "on your left" to people you are passing is not a good idea, because:
- It is distracting to others on the slopes. It adds "noise" to the environment, and will likely force anyone who hears it to look around trying to figure out where it came from (which at best will be annoying, at worst could be dangerous).
- It implicitly shifts collision avoidance to the other party, when the skier code already has clear rules on responsibility.
- There are better options to ski defensively when you want to pass someone (wait for a wider part of the trail and pass quickly to create distance).
I will sometimes say on the left or on the right. Typically it is on crowded hill situations where the skier or skiers ahead of me are very unpredictable. It is in the case where is not easily possible to determine if they are going to make a sharp turn into my path or go down the hill and there are limited routes down the hill. I've never had a person get unbalanced or anyone get confused as to who as I talking to. Oftentimes people will thank me as it is confirmation that I know where they are and where they should go and I am avoiding them. It is not a habit, but a tool that I use when I feel it is necessary.
I consider it actually safer for everyone to announce my intentions. There are times when I have slowed down on the hill to avoid passing someone below me on the hill and either had a collision or near-miss with someone behind me because I slowed down or stopped suddenly in the middle of the hill and they didn't see why. The ultimate solution instead of slowing or stopping would be to move to the side of the hill to get out of the way and then hoping there is no one that wants to ski the edge snow above me. When I announce my intentions there has never been an issue with either of us.
When biking or inline trail skating I always announce my intentions when passing, but then as mentioned above this is often necessary due to the narrowness of the trail and other things. I've never had anyone get confused in biking or skating there and I usually get thanks or gives thanks if they say it to me.
Joe Kaplenk
Reisen wro
In summary, I would argue that yelling "on your left" to people you are passing is not a good idea, because:
Except when it prevents someone from running into you ..
The skier I referenced in my first post on the topic was on the left side of the trail. I was on the right side. I was about as far from him as the trail would allow -30-40 feet. He had been doing short turns as I approached. His last turn though was a BIG left turn.
I assumed he MIGHT do a big right turn into me. As a point of clarification though, by the time I said "on your right" he was the uphill skier and it was HIS responsibility to avoid the downhill skier - me. I was simply helping him out with his responsibility.
My desire to survive says I will keep alerting people to my presence. I aint changing.
bob wrote:
Reisen wro
In summary, I would argue that yelling "on your left" to people you are passing is not a good idea, because:
Except when it prevents someone from running into you ..
The skier I referenced in my first post on the topic was on the left side of the trail. I was on the right side. I was about as far from him as the trail would allow -30-40 feet. He had been doing short turns as I approached. His last turn though was a BIG left turn.
I assumed he MIGHT do a big right turn into me. As a point of clarification though, by the time I said "on your right" he was the uphill skier and it was HIS responsibility to avoid the downhill skier - me. I was simply helping him out with his responsibility.
My desire to survive says I will keep alerting people to my presence. I aint changing.
Ahh, gotcha. If you see someone skiing into you, yeah, absolutely say something if you think they might hit you. I thought you were saying it while he was still downhill of you.
I'm with you and agree 100%.
Reisen wrote:
bob wrote:
Well, I never said that I ski next to anyone for any specific amount of time, did I? However, evertytime I pass someone I am next to him/her for some short amount of time.
I thought about this for a second, and here's my position:
I'm a road cyclist, and when on the W&OD, I yell out "on your left" dozens of times per ride. The reasons for this are numerous:
- The width of the trail necessitates being within very close proximity to other riders/runners/walkers when passing, and I don't want to scare them if they turn and see someone within a few feet of them.
- The trail is never getting wider, so I have to pass close, and the warning is both to make them aware, and to tell them not to cut me off (ie. step out in front of me, turn left, etc.).
I don't think that's appropriate while skiing.
- Because ski slopes vary greatly in width, but generally are much, much wider than a bike trail, there are lots of opportunities to pass with plenty of room. Slopes are also finite (they have a set point where everyone stops) unlike roads. If the slope is narrow and steep, I would maintain you shouldn't be passing there. If the slope is narrow and flat (like a catwalk), the rules are probably different, but speeds will be much lower, which make things easier (easier to stop if someone cuts you off, less need for other skiers to scrub speed by cutting across a slope, etc).
- The technical part of skiing is much, much harder than road biking. If I'm road biking I can easily look to the side, look behind me, etc. If I'm skiing bumps, on ice, on a technical slope, or preparing to hit a jump, I'm focused downhill exclusively. If you yell "on your right", I'm going to look to my right to see where that came from. That's not a good thing; it could cause a fall, or at the very minimum, is going to disrupt my rhythm.
- Telling someone "on your right" puts the honus on them to avoid a collision, and implicitly asks them not to turn in front of you. In your example, you even pointed out the other skier made a shorter turn as a result. Skiing doesn't work that way; it has clear rules of right of way and for who is responsible to avoid collisions. There should be no need for this if passing. Until you have moved in front of him, he is the downhill skier and has right of way to make his turns as wide as he likes. If he starts his turn before you pass, you need to scrub speed and either let him put some distance in front of you, or cross behind him to the other side of the slope. Yeah, it sucks getting cut off by people that insist on using the entire slope for every turn, but that is their right. If he starts his turn while you're even with him, but in the process of passing him, as long as you're not passing right next to him (again, I would maintain that is never appropriate on a steep slope), the laws of physics dictate that you can't collide (you are moving faster, and in a straight line. He is moving slower, and in a diagonal line toward you. As soon as you're past him, you are now downhill and avoiding you is 100% his responsibility.
- If your reason for doing this is simple self preservation (ie. you don't trust that he will avoid hitting you once you pass), I guess I understand that, but would argue a better tactic is to put as much distance between you and a skier you are passing as quickly as possible.
In summary, I would argue that yelling "on your left" to people you are passing is not a good idea, because:
- It is distracting to others on the slopes. It adds "noise" to the environment, and will likely force anyone who hears it to look around trying to figure out where it came from (which at best will be annoying, at worst could be dangerous).
- It implicitly shifts collision avoidance to the other party, when the skier code already has clear rules on responsibility.
- There are better options to ski defensively when you want to pass someone (wait for a wider part of the trail and pass quickly to create distance).
This is a good discussion but FYI that, while you may have numerous reasons for audible warnings while passing while cycling, you miss the most important one. This is, if you are indeed following the WO&D rules, the C&O rules, or the GAP rules, as you would the skier code, you are required to give an audible warning before passing. You are not so required under the skier's code.
Hey, if there is some upward pitch heading in to the lift corral or along the edge of the crowded catwalk that would make me the DOWNHILL skier when overtaking the slower person ahead of me right??? Code says I have the right of way hahahaha.
Back to reality... If you feel the need to give an audible warning you are making a dangerous assumption that the person you are overtaking can actually hear it. You need to pass only in situations where audible warnings are not necessary.. when you have a clear, fail proof line around the person. They may have ear buds blasting, they may be hard of hearing. Regardless THEY have the right of way and don't have to heed your request/instructions/orders
crgildart wrote:
Back to reality... If you feel the need to give an audible warning you are making a dangerous assumption that the person you are overtaking can actually hear it. You need to pass only in situations where audible warnings are not necessary.. when you have a clear, fail proof line around the person. They may have ear buds blasting, they may be hard of hearing. Regardless THEY have the right of way and don't have to heed your request/instructions/orders
Back to real life --- what do you propose to do when you have just passed someone and as you are doing so you notice that the other person (who is now barely uphill of you, so you have right of way) change skiing behavior and start to do something that puts you at risk. You can let them run into you or you can say something. After all you are now the downhill skier, and have the right of way. What's your choice? Let reality/survival be your guide.
Incidenally, I maybe say "on your left or right" on average twice a year, and some years I don't say it at all, and I ski a lot - somethng over 1600 runs a year. I don't put myself or others at risk, but when someone puts me at risk , I do something about it.
bob wrote:
crgildart wrote:
Back to reality... If you feel the need to give an audible warning you are making a dangerous assumption that the person you are overtaking can actually hear it. You need to pass only in situations where audible warnings are not necessary.. when you have a clear, fail proof line around the person. They may have ear buds blasting, they may be hard of hearing. Regardless THEY have the right of way and don't have to heed your request/instructions/orders
Back to real life --- what do you propose to do when you have just passed someone and as you are doing so you notice that the other person (who is now barely uphill of you, so you have right of way) change skiing behavior and start to do something that puts you at risk.
How about only passing someone only when there is enough room where there is no way they can dart back in to your ski zone?
crgildart wrote:
bob wrote:
crgildart wrote:
Back to reality... If you feel the need to give an audible warning you are making a dangerous assumption that the person you are overtaking can actually hear it. You need to pass only in situations where audible warnings are not necessary.. when you have a clear, fail proof line around the person. They may have ear buds blasting, they may be hard of hearing. Regardless THEY have the right of way and don't have to heed your request/instructions/orders
Back to real life --- what do you propose to do when you have just passed someone and as you are doing so you notice that the other person (who is now barely uphill of you, so you have right of way) change skiing behavior and start to do something that puts you at risk.
How about only passing someone only when there is enough room where there is no way they can dart back in to your ski zone?
So, no one had EVER done someone done something nexpected and irresponsible to you when you've been sking -- how about when you've been drving? What did you do when that bappened? Driving answer: hit brakes and or blow horn.
That fact that I have to say "on your right/left" on average twice a year says that I DO only pass when there's plenty of room --that is unless the other guy acts irreesponsbily.
When they're driving, people don't normally pull into traffic without looking. Why should skiing be any different?
They are allowed to do something unexpected if they are ahead of you. So twice a year you encroach in to someone else's skiable zone ahead of you. You tell them you are violating their right of way to get around them. Got it!
By the way, driving is only a good example when the skiers code applies to the juristiction you are driving in. The car that pulls out or changes lanes ahead of you usually doesn't have the right of way, skiers do as long as they are on the same trail.
No both of you have each other's piss on your ski boots
snapdragon wrote:
No both of you have each other's piss on your ski boots
Or ski joust. FWIW, I do pass people skiing all the time. I try to time it so that I can be past them and well out of their way before they even know I am approaching them. Sometimes it does work out closer than I exptected it to so I also push the envelope some. In an ideal world nobody would mind waiting behind slower skiers and always yield the trial ahead to them, but we all want to get where we're going quickly, expecially if trying to carry speed to avoid polling and skating. All I'm saying is OWN it when we get a little selfish. I try to..
What a long thread, lots of folks with different opinions. I'll add one more comment to the discussion of speaking out when passing. I'm a single sided deaf person. You could be on my left side and I will never hear a word you say. So just consider a person might not hear as you are calling out your position.
(My daughter keeps telling me I should get a sticker for my helmet that says "hearing impaired".)
I bike a lot in the off season as well and I always call out rider up or something to that effect. If I get an acknowledgement then I pass. If I don't get said ackowledgement then I have to assume that the person is either deaf, has earbuds in and can't hear, or they can hear but chose to ignore the warning. Whatever the case may be the onus is on me to avoid a collision and safely pass the person. With that said, there is always going to be an asshole who jumps up and down telling you you're a menace to society and you don't belong on the path, road, trail, earth, universe, etc!
crgildart wrote:
They are allowed to do something unexpected if they are ahead of you. So twice a year you encroach in to someone else's skiable zone ahead of you. You tell them you are violating their right of way to get around them. Got it!
By the way, driving is only a good example when the skiers code applies to the juristiction you are driving in. The car that pulls out or changes lanes ahead of you usually doesn't have the right of way, skiers do as long as they are on the same trail.
You never answered the question. HERE IT IS AGAIN FOR YOU:So, no one had EVER done something unexpected and irresponsible to you when you’ve been sking. What did you do when that bappened?
BTW, I have probably skied 35,000,000+ feet of vert over the last 25 years. I always ski in control, and I always keep the ability to stop in my repertoire. Haven't hit anybody yet. You are not going to convince me that you are right, and I'm probably not going to convince you that I am right. So I am going to continue to warn people, and you can do anything you want to do.
bob wrote:
Antoine wrote:
I always thought that if somone where to die or get seriously hurt(Paralyzed) It would be because some dumb teenager jumped of that lift with no safey bar (no one puts the bar down regardless) due to peer presure or some jerry went into the spot and ate it.
On a more serious note this is real sad news and my prayers go out to the familly.
Out west there are multiple fatalities every year. Most of the time the deaths are caused by the skiers/riders losing control on groomed blues and crashing into trees. Death mostly results from blunt force trauma, but not always. I reall an incident about 7-8 years ago at Keystone where a skier on Frenchman lost control and was impaled on a tree branch.
Keystone averages about a death a year. Luckily I am not aware of one this year.
I'll add my prayers to the family.
Well, I was wrong about Keystone. There was a fatality on January 20 that didn't make the news until a few days ago. There was also one at Breckenridge on March 1. It appears that Summit County had 6 fatalities two years ago, 4 last year, aned 2 so far this year..
http://www.summitdaily.com/news/20930234-113/mothers-grief-intensified-by-lack-of-answers-on
In both cases skiers on groomed blues impacted trees and died of blunt force trauma,
bob wrote:
You never answered the question. HERE IT IS AGAIN FOR YOU:So, no one had EVER done something unexpected and irresponsible to you when you’ve been sking. What did you do when that bappened?
Last season I was skiing down the left side of a moderate black. There was someone stopped about 15 feet from the edge with tips pointed towards the middle. I opted to pass on the far left. Right as I was almost on top of them they HOPPED A 180 and pushed off towards the woods. I had that covered and skied off farther left down the side actually off trail through the woods and back out. They were startled, but I got past them quickly enough so they couldn't hit me no matter how hard they tried.
Fact is, you're more likely to startle a noob or cluless meanderer by coming up their ass an clicking your poles or barking out instructions ... causing them to fall or dart the other way actually hitting someone else. It's usually better to just zip around them with enough room so that they can't hit you no matter what they do... and you are past them before they even knew you were behind them.
NEWTON, N.J. (AP) ”” A New Jersey doctor accused of attacking a 12-year-old boy in a “ski rage” incident has pleaded not guilty.
The New Jersey Herald reports (http://bit.ly/1SnpeF1) 44-year-old Samuel Caruthers, of Morris County, New Jersey, entered the plea during his initial court appearance on Wednesday. He’s charged with aggravated assault and endangering the welfare of a child.
Authorities say the anesthesiologist was skiing with his own child at the Mountain Creek resort in northern New Jersey last month when the victim fell into them. Caruthers allegedly punched the boy in the mouth and hit him with the end of a ski pole.
Defense attorney Robert Dunn says it’s an unfortunate incident that his client is very sorry about.
That happened to me last year. I just took one of the kid's ski and dropped it off at the bottom. Gave him time to think about it while he walked down the hill. The collision took place near the top of the resort.
And BTW...the kid's old man got pissy with ski patrol about the incident. Ski patrol asked me to not do that again. Sure...ok.
crgildart wrote:
The19thHole wrote:
jkaplenk wrote
I have never boarded, so maybe someone else can answer this question. Is it more difficult to board slowly, make sharp turns, and stop on a dime on a snowboard, especially on steep slopes? I can slowly pick my way down the edges of the steepest slopes on my skis. I can also make snap turns and stop quickly if needed, even at speed. I rarely (if ever) see a snowboarder do these things. Not saying that the person killed was hit by a snowboarder--I'm just curious.
I skied for 15 years / been snowboarder for 20 years: skill level has a lot to do with it. Neither participant will be able to make the manuvers you mention until experienced. I frequently pick my way down the edges (usually the best snow), especially if on steep and/or 'firm' conditions. Skier/boarder.....it's like Dirty Harry said "a man's got to know his limitations".
Does Seven Springs have a safety patrol or an ambassador group that monitors safety on the slopes? Some of the incidents may be related to a low level of enforcement of proper ski code.
I've always wondered how many injuries and collisions could be prevented simply by requiring all riders to earn a basic certification before being allowed to ride lifts to blue or black terrain.. It could be as simple as one employee at the bottom of a green run with a rubber stamp and ink pad stamping your ticket after you show them you can turn right, turn left, and stop with some proficiency. Perhaps there could be some kind of universal card you could pay $5 for anually to get you immediate access at the ticket window after proving the competency once. Any ski patrols want to chime in on that? Too much trouble for too little gain??
Stratton mountain had a test for snowboarders they had to pass to be allowed to go to the top of thier Mt.
after a young boarder who had passed the test was killed by hitting a tree they discontinued the program.
details from abused memory, feel free to correct.
passing any test does not mean you know what you are doing under realworld conditions
imp
Wintergreen used to make you demonstrate proficiency to s ski patroller before you could ski the Highlands trails, all rated expert. Discontinued many years ago!
MorganB
aka The Colonel
Wintergreen used to make you demonstrate proficiency to s ski patroller before you could ski the Highlands trails, all rated expert. Discontinued many years ago!
MorganB
aka The Colonel
imp wrote:
Stratton mountain had a test for snowboarders they had to pass to be allowed to go to the top of thier Mt.
after a young boarder who had passed the test was killed by hitting a tree they discontinued the program.
details from abused memory, feel free to correct.
passing any test does not mean you know what you are doing under realworld conditions
imp
You can't prevent every tragedy. But, I would think that it would still prevent some. It might also get some drunk people off the mountain.
lbotta wrote:
Does Seven Springs have a safety patrol or an ambassador group that monitors safety on the slopes? Some of the incidents may be related to a low level of enforcement of proper ski code.
It's called ski patrol. Back in the day, they actually did their job. Today, they seem afraid to say anything or enforce rules because everyone believes themselves to 1. always be in the right and 2. special.
Still trying to find out if the guy who passed was wearing a helmet.
crgildart wrote:
Got rear ended by a snowboarder today. Stopped by a shack all the way on the left.side of the trail to look uphill for my kids and kid grazed.my back across my tails. He spun a 360, touched down and said sorry as I just stood there staring a hole in him.
slopes are too busy. When you see dozens or even hundreds of people coming down a trail or slope within 10' of each other, it's a miracle there arent more accidents. Thousands of runs and I've never really had any issues. I treat skiing/boarding like Im driving on a 5 lane highway.
Should I need to ride like this with the 'skier code'?
YES - the same reason why I look when I go through an intersection driving a car, whereas I have a green light, is the same reason I look in every direction while riding.
crgildart wrote:
Got rear ended by a snowboarder today. Stopped by a shack all the way on the left.side of the trail to look uphill for my kids and kid grazed.my back across my tails. He spun a 360, touched down and said sorry as I just stood there staring a hole in him.
If you'd said "on your left" as you heard him coming, he might have avoided you. :-)
bob wrote:
crgildart wrote:
Got rear ended by a snowboarder today. Stopped by a shack all the way on the left.side of the trail to look uphill for my kids and kid grazed.my back across my tails. He spun a 360, touched down and said sorry as I just stood there staring a hole in him.If you'd said "on your left" as you heard him coming, he might have avoided you. :-)
Hell ya! He probably would have plowed right in to the maintence shack I stopped next to and gone SPLAT! just like Wile E. Coyote!
I spoke to a friend who knows the family. Apparently the man was sking with some kids who are friends with his own kids. The man colided withone of the kids at the bottom of Wagner and fell into some snow making apparatus. Somehow, he cut his corroded artery in his neck and bled to death. His daughter was there and witnes the whole tragedy.
snowsmith wrote:
I spoke to a friend who knows the family. Apparently the man was sking with some kids who are friends with his own kids. The man colided withone of the kids at the bottom of Wagner and fell into some snow making apparatus. Somehow, he cut his corroded artery in his neck and bled to death. His daughter was there and witnes the whole tragedy.
OMG how awful!
That is terrible. I just got back from Telluride (report to come soon) and there was a fatality while I was there. A skier ~ 50 y.o. lost control and went of a cliff into some trees. His 20 y.o. daughter had stopped to wait for him, and she saw him lose control and go over the cliff from the reports I heard. I see there was a skier from Arlington who died at Copper the same day; does anyone know him?
http://www.kktv.com/home/headlines/Springs-Man-49-Dies-in-Telluride-Ski-Accident-371581471.html
From the article:
Two skiers died Wednesday morning at separate Colorado ski resorts.
Copper Mountain Resort issued a statement regarding the death of a 19-year-old on the heels of news that a 49-year-old died while skiing at Telluride.
Nathan Rom, of Arlington, Virginia, was skiing on American Flyer, an intermediate trail, when helost control and crashed. He was taken to St. Anthony's Copper Mountain Clinic, where he later died.
"Copper Mountain Resort and Copper Mountain Ski Patrol extend their deepest sympathies to the man's friends and family," the resort said in the statement.
Rom was reportedly wearing a helmet.
Almost 300 miles away in Telluride, William Scott Elligott, of Colorado Springs, was skiing with his 20-year-old daughter in the Gold Hill area of the resort when he lost control. Both of his skis released, and he tumbled out of her sight into steep and wooded terrain.
Ski patrollers found him without a pulse and were unable to revive him.
Elligott had been visiting various ski areas in the state. It was his first time skiing Telluride.
San Miguel County Sheriff Bill Masters described the accident as "a terrible tragedy."
