laurel mountain update
May 17, 2013
62 posts
16 users
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I asked Doug what was happening and here is his reply:
Thank you for your interest in Laurel Mountain State Park. All of the permits have recently been submitted to our construction arm of the Commonwealth; The Department of General Services. We anticipate this project going out to bid in the near future.
Douglas E. Finger
Park Manager
Linn Run Laurel Mountain
State Park Complex
724-238-6623
If the project gets advertised within the next 2 months, it would mean award of the contract by late summer. This should provide enough time to complete the construction in time for the 2013/2014 ski season.
Here is the reply from 7 Springs:
Good morning, Thank you for getting in touch. Nice to hear from you again.
As of my last conversation with DCNR spokesperson Chris Novak late last month, Laurel will not re-open this winter. The design work is done, DEP permits are in line, water and sewage are set with the township and they are finalizing a power agreement with West Penn Power. After the power agreement is in line, the construction bids will be released and they are approximating a year for completion.
Personally, I can't wait for Laurel to re-open! It's a wonderful place and I know my teammates here are just as anxious as I am. Please let me know if I can help with anything else.
Have a wonderful weekend!
rj, was that reply from Anna Weltz?
Yes. Is that a good sign?
Neither good or bad.
She is saying exactly what a PR/marketing person should say or was told to say when inquiries about Laurel are made.
As I said before, if Laurel reopens again, it will be in spite of, not because of current ownership. However...
Has anyone hiked/biked/walked back to the Lodge recently?
Just curious if there are any signs of activity besides decay and neglect.
The construction contract still has not been advertised for bids. I check the web site regularly.
rode in a few weeks ago, grass neck high in places, no sign of anything. nice bass in the top lake.
imp
Is the building still broken into and open? Which site shows the construction contract advertisement?
Almost four years since the assets were bought by 7S and almost 3 years since the lease was awarded to operate the ski area. Comical, if it wasn't so sad that it has taken this long to get to this point where absolutely nothing tangible has happened at the ski area. Sorry, environmental impact studies and "re-design" of an existing ski area doesn't count.
Thanks for the emarket place site. I will be checking every now and then. Does anyone know how long 7 Springs has on the lease to get it open?
The lease does not begin until Laurel opens for skiing, 10 year lease.
Who does Nutting know that he gets royal treatment? He has 6 mill to work with, no lease payments, a 10 year lease and it just sits there.
To clarify, Nutting has nothing to do with the $6.5 million nor was he given any money by the state. That money is to be used by the DCNR and DGS to upgrade Laurel.
Having said that, I don't know what (if anything) he and 7S management are doing behind the scenes to push the project along. I do know they have been consulted by the state on water requirements for snow making, slope redesign, etc.
I would think the state and county/township would push harder. If the resort would open, there would be more desire to develop the Village and bring more tax dollars. The fact that you can't build on a lot of the Village lots keeps the real estate tax down to about $10.00 or less a year. I love this part but miss the slopes.
I asked Doug what was happening and here is his reply:
Thank you for your interest in Laurel Mountain State Park. All of the permits have recently been submitted to our construction arm of the Commonwealth; The Department of General Services. We anticipate this project going out to bid in the near future.
Douglas E. Finger
Park Manager
Linn Run Laurel Mountain
State Park Complex
724-238-6623
That was May, it is now almost September. If they don't get this out to bid very soon, we won't be skiing at Laurel Mtn. next winter.
I suggest we again contact Mr. Finger and ask him why this project is taking so long to get out on the street for bids. The Empire State Building was built in one year. We need to start rattling some cages.
Rattling cages only works for some politicians. They know that they can become unelected; bureaucrats can't get voted out. Strict enforcement of policies, procedures, rules and regulations guarantee bureaucrats employment for life and a fat taxpayer funded pension after stretching projects to maximum length and ensuring the most inefficient use of public funds.
BTW: The diatribe above about bureaucrats does not refer at all to Mr. Finger. A great guy who has always championed the ski area at Laurel.
I can't say this comment is directed to any specific government official in PA as I'm not a PA resident, but overall, this is a prime example of why I'm fully convinced we will not see Laurel Mountain open in the next 15+ years.
The fact that the state government 1.) owns & controls the property of Laurel Mountain / resort and 2.) lives in it's own bubble of a false reality not worried about turning a profit on the land and going out of business because of that means the project will slowly drag on for decades.
The *only* way for this to ever be rectified is if the state of PA simply sold or gave the entire Laurel Mountain property/park over to a private entity for full ownership and we all would see the resort open in 1-2 years tops.
I gave up on Laurel years ago for the fact the government owns it.
Politicians hold a big part in it. When George had it, it was open in a year which upset Mellons. When Buncher (Hidden Valley) had an offer on it Nutting (7 Springs) went in the back door and got it. Buncher would have had it open years ago. We are dealing with the owner of the Pirates and Pittsburgh Newspaper. He doesn't really give a sh-- about Laurel except for the fact Buncher can't touch it. Nutting doesn't need to do anything to it because it doesn't cost him a penny to have the lease option. Payments start when work starts. I ski Hidden Valley because they at least tried.
Still not out for bid. Can we contact them and ask when the project will be advertised for bids? If it doen't happen soon we won't be skiing next winter at Laurel Mtn.
Anna Weltz is someone to talk to. Her email is
AWeltz@7springs.com
I checked yesterday and still don't see it out. I fear it will be on the lost resort list someday.
Looks like more of the same. The last word heard was that the contract with the utility was holding up the bid process. It looks like this is still the issue. If bids are not posted soon we will lose another construction season and Laurel will not open next winter (2013/2014) either. The DCNR has already indicated that might be the plan in this
article from PIT-P-G's Larry Walsh from March 2011.I quote from that article:
"Laurel Mountain will not be open for the 2012-13 season, but it is a possibility for the following year," said Christina Novak, press secretary for the state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources"...Although Novak thinks Laurel Mountain might open for the '13-14 season, '14-15 might be more like it.
Elsewhere in the Bureau of State Parks, Director John Norbeck has been forced of of his job due to philosophical differences with the Corbett administration:
PA parks director says he was forced out by Corbett
I can understand drilling and harvesting timber on State Forest Land but harvesting timber in State parks is just pure greed. Maybe if we contribute $32k to Corbets campaign we can get him to put a higher priority on getting the ski area open. This goes along with the so called "Citizens United" (like we're all united by this ruling) ruling at the Supreme Court. Why anybody but the fat cats (like the Koch brothers and their fat cat budies) and the politicians they have in their pockets think all of the money be thrown around is a good idea is beyond me. We used to call this bribery.
I just cannot comprehend why it is taking this long to get this project out for bid.
Until the owner of the assets at Laurel decides he wants to gently nudge the state to reopen Laurel, it WILL, repeat WILL NOT HAPPEN.
If the article is to be believed and that the only obstacle in the state's way to going out for construction bid is electrical issues, all one has to do is volunteer to pony up the money required to perform the upgrade and pay off any past debts. It's the least the asset owner could do. He had $1.5 mil to buy the assets, he surely has the $$$$ to offer that service, considering the state (i.e. residents of PA) is doing the rest. Don't forget the 200 million dollar gift (PNC Park) that PA taxpayers gave Bobby either.
Nutting is a nothing but a spoiled rich kid, jerk, putz, reprobate, jag0$$. Period. So happy he's not a native yinzer.
1992! 1992! 1992! 1992! 1992!
This vvvv
Until the owner of the assets at Laurel decides he wants to gently nudge the state to reopen Laurel, it WILL, repeat WILL NOT HAPPEN.
1992! 1992! 1992! 1992! 1992!
When and if he's ready. PA should have know better you are right.
This vvvv
Until the owner of the assets at Laurel decides he wants to gently nudge the state to reopen Laurel, it WILL, repeat WILL NOT HAPPEN.
1992! 1992! 1992! 1992! 1992!
When and if he's ready. PA should have know better you are right.
You don't think they knew?
The state won't care until they spend money, they won't spend money until Nuthing is ready to procede, Laurel sits and rots, you think that's what they (rendell's administration) really wanted?
Does the state even want it open? I don't think the Pirate wants it open. If the State wanted it, Buncher would have had it and it would have been working years ago. Nutting got a golden contract.
came across this - this morning.......http://www.firsttracksonline.com/2012/10/11/pennsylvanias-laurel-mountain-to-remain-closed-this-winter/
Climbing skins my friends; climbing skins.
Denis, can I borrow your AT equipment? I don't know how to telemark.
Better yet, I'll let you know when it is skiable and I'll find some AT equipment or struggle with the tele set up I have and I'll try to show you around.....if I can keep up.
Better yet, I'll let you know when it is skiable and I'll find some AT equipment or struggle with the tele set up I have and I'll try to show you around.....if I can keep up.
Are those Crispis still alive? Cool.
Denis, can I borrow your AT equipment? I don't know how to telemark.
Better yet, I'll let you know when it is skiable and I'll find some AT equipment or struggle with the tele set up I have and I'll try to show you around.....if I can keep up.
Deal. Also let me know when the Mt Washington incline is skiable. The video from a couple years ago was great.
djop, The Crispis are a little toasted and tattered but still usable. The bindings on the SCXs are more suspect.
Denis, the Mt Washington incline slope will need about 2 feet to be skiable. Maybe better with a solid base and than another foot and a half or so. That seldom happens around Pittsburgh anymore. Hell it seldom happens in the Laurel Highlands anymore but if it does I'll send you a PM.
I have a full stash of spare HW parts, LMK if i can help sort them?
I spoke with Anna Weltz AWeltz@7springs.com about progress and she said about the same as she said back in May. The issue of power lines and it has to be put out to bid. Then it will take about a year. We know its out this year and probably next year. I need someone with a snowmobile to haul me back up after the Lower Wildcat. I'm to sore to walk.
How did you get an answer? I've sent several emails and never heard anything back. I also emailed several people at the DCNR and other state departments and haven't got any answeres back.
Update on Ski Area:
Chris Marso advised that Seven Springs is still in discussions with the DCNR, DEP and PA State General Services regarding the re-opening of the ski area. The double chairlift is to be replaced by a quad lift that will be capable of transporting 1800 skiers per hour. The DCNR owns the maintenance shed and remediation is needed for mold problems. The available water reserves for the slopes are insufficient for coverage during a warm winter and a larger
lake and upgrades to the snowmaking will be required. In addition, renovations need made to the infrastructure and an elevator must be installed in the ski lodge. He reiterated that Deer Path is too narrow and must be widened, and the tubing park would be removed in order to realign and widen the passage around the lodge. Many issues need addressed before the Dept. of General Services will look at the bids to see if their plans are viable. He believes Seven Springs is several months away from this step in the process, though many of the steps have been completed to date. There are two companies that may be involved with the bid for the quad lift, and 75% of the steel for it must be manufactured in the U.S. They hope the resort will be ready to reopen for the 2013-14 ski season.
He reiterated that Deer Path is too narrow
I'd agree, especially if traffic increases.
and the tubing park would be removed in order to realign and widen the passage around the lodge.
It was a while ago, but I recall that passage was tight. However IMHO, tubing is critical to any ski area, especially one that caters to families. The tubing park was fairly busy the last year LM was open.
BTW, the "(not good)", when paired with "laurel mountain update" in the title, is redundant.
Any update on what they are planning with Lower Wildcat?
the tubing park at Laurel was start to finish a money looser. the time and effort to make it and groom it
realy cut into the snowmaking and grooming on the rest of the hill.
deer path being made wider is a crutial part of going back to a 1 chair operation. removing the very steep end of the trail which is in the planning will allow beginners to get to the chair.
Lower will be slightly narrower sjiers left but potentialy
wider skiers rt.
would be no mold if someone would have kept the heat on
imp
Widening Deer Path (Crossover to you old timers) will be a majority of the grading to be done on the mountain. As imp said, Laurel seems to be headed back to being a 1 chair operation. Increasing water storage by enlarging existing ponds is slated as a big part of the state allocation. I'm happy to hear that a quad chair will be installed instead of a triple.
I wonder what Seven Springs is putting up as far as capital investment. Funny that Marso talks about the need for increased snowmaking but isn't he on record as saying that only a few more acres will be covered, that being on the widened Deer Path? I really hoped to see snowmaking on Dream, Snow Bowl, Laurel and Lincoln Highway but Dream and Laurel would be acceptable for a new start. I'm afraid that there still will only be snowmaking on essentially 2 top to bottom runs and Upper and Lower Wildcat and Bobcat/Broadway/Deer Path and Upper Innsbruck. I hope I'm wrong.
Welp. Didn't win the Powerball, so we are still stuck with whatever plan/timetable Nutting and DCNR has.
7 Springs is putting up nothing. They are doing nothing back there, so they don't have to pay any rent.
The not good may sound redundant but it's been going out to bid for years and we still watch year after year with no results. This past year it's electric and we can't get an answer from Scott at West Penn Power. ssurgeon@firstenergycorp.com
Next Doug from Linn Run State Park won't return emails.
Then AWelyz@7springs.com keeps saying power.
Next it will be lakes. Then they will find something else.
When Buncher Group was trying to get it, even without grants, Nutting crawled under the fence to keep Hidden Valley out.
The Laurel Mountain Ski Resort Facebook page has some pictures from the 10-11 and 11-12 seasons. It keeps falling further apart.
I saw how fast George got it running for us that love it and how fast Buncher got Hidden Valley updated. My opinion is Nutting has no desire to open this up and neither does the State. This is the redundant not good.
Long-time lurker here. Now that another 4 months have gone by has anything happened? I'd like to see this place re-open, but having it be a secret earn-your-turns location wouldn't be the worst thing ever.
What is/was the average snowfall at Laurel Mountain? According to this NWS map I think it is about 150 inches since it looks like Laurel Mountain lines up right where it says 152 inches on the map:
http://www.erh.noaa.gov/ctp/features/snowmaps/index.php?tab=norms It appeared to me that there was definitely more snow on the ground than at Blue Knob where I skied yesterday.
Yesterday on my way back home to Columbus, Ohio I stopped by Laurel to scope it out for some backcountry action next year. The trees at Laurel mountain seem very different than at Blue Knob. Trees here are much bigger and more majestic than scraggly and twisted like they are at Blue Knob. Could this be because Blue Knob was possibly clear-cut in the last 60-70 years while the Laurel area has only old-growth forest? The natural spacing of the trees here seems to be better than at Blue Knob and the forest floor seems more clear.
Anyway, there is still a solid foot of super dense snow at the Laurel Mountain and the slopes would be good to go for some touring for at least the next week for some corn snow. Blue Knob is 4:35 from where I live in Ohio and Laurel Mountain is 3:40 away so that proximity to Columbus is a huge plus, especially if I am doing a day trip like I did to Blue Knob twice this year. Not paying for a lift ticket would help offset the cost of gas.
All winter here in Columbus, I saw tons of days where it snowed 2-4 inches in succession at the likes of Holiday Valley, NY (5:15), Timberline (4:55), and Blue Knob (4:35), but it just wasn't enough for me to actually call in sick to work and buzz over there for a few inches of new snow. HOWEVER, if it snows 10-15 inches over the course of a week in 2-4 inch quantities at Laurel Mountain AND stays below freezing, there is NOBODY there to ski it up. I could easily head over there on a weekend where it it may not have even snowed a for a few days and have some awesome largely untouched pow runs via the earn-your-turns method.
What do you guys think?
I don't think you are seeing any old growth at Laurel Mt. Lynn Run was taken over bt the State in 1910 and at that point the valley was pretty much clearcut. The Mellons did not start the Rolling Rock Club until 1917, and did not open the ski area until the 1930s. Maybe someone can drag Woody up there for an expert opinion, but it has appeared to me that the trees in Lynn Run SP and up on Laurel Mt are of a similar age. Historic ariel photography from pennpilot.psu.edu also shows similar growth in both areas in the late 30s.
For top-to-bottom skiing only on April 31! Be sure to call first!
Sorry, I just could not resist...
The Colonel
On 1 April 2013
I contacted a reporter to see if our issues could get some publicity. He keeps calling the DCNR and they keep stone walling him. I understand that as the design reached it's conclusion, all the sudden, 7Springs started questioning it. So after the design has been on going for 6 years, they question it as the project is getting readied for advertisement for bids! Look like it will again not open for skiing this ski season and the existing facilities will sit their unmaintained and falling into disrepair. Quite pittiful.
Time to call 7Springs. I understand management is quite receptive to phone calls and willing to discuss issues (no kidding).
But if in fact 7S did question the final design, if I were the state, I'd say tough luck.
I honestly believe they did offer input along the way.
The tubing hill issue is phoney. Read all the press releases and the tubing hill was never certain but the tubing site was included the design. The tubing hill was contingent on funding. It was always was stated that the tubing would be done if there was money left after all the other things were done.
I quote from a May, 2011 article in the Pittsbugh Tribune-Review:
"Terry Brady, deputy press secretary for the DCNR, said the tentative completion date for all construction at the resort is December 2012, with hopes to reopen the slopes in the same month or in early 2013. Plans for the $6.5 million include additional water storage for snowmaking, a new or refurbished lift, grading work, electrical upgrades and, if enough funding is available, a new area for snow tubing at the resort, Brady said.
Seven Springs officials are working closely with the DCNR during the planning and design process, essentially acting as the concessionaire of the state-owned property, said Anna Weltz, communications manager for Seven Springs. The resort owns the snow sports assets at Laurel Mountain, including a ski lodge, two chairlifts, snowmaking facilities, snow-grooming equipment and maintenance and storage buildings, having acquired them in 2008." Laurel Mountain Trib article May, 2011
We have to start making some noise, I have seen how this works. I do public works projects. Politicians respond to pressure. They in turn put pressure on the beauracrats doing the projects. I contacted a resporter who has received no response concerning the delays from the DCNR. I think we need to contact the Post Gazette, the Tribune, the mayor of Ligonier, the State Representative and anybody else who will listen. The email address of the reporter I contacted is:
jnapsha@tribweb.com
Lawrence Walsh I believe reports on skiing for the Post Gazette but I do not have his email address.
Please email him and tell him you want some answers. He has done articles on Laurel Mtn previously.
The mayor of Ligonier has spent an huge amount of time and effort in trying to get Laurel reopened. He is on the Laurel Mountain Ski Patrol.
Larry Walsh is semi retired and leans toward 7 springs
in all reporting.
A few years ago the Laurel crazies actualy ambushed then Gov. Rendell in somerset and were promised action.
all we get are empty promises.
But!!!!!
write letters call everyone lets roast their ____
imp
I have heard that 7S is still holding up the completion of the design and bidding because they would rather that money alloted for improving the tubing hill be spent on improved skiing facilities. Since the project is not out for bids at this point, it pretty much guarantees we won't be skiing on Laurel Mountain for the winter of 2013/2014.
It's pretty sad that the State of PA and 7S cannot get their act together. It leads you to believe that 7S does not really want to open this place for skiing. They just wanted to keep it out of the competition's hands. Why would 7S wait for the project design to be nearly complete, after 7 years, to request design changes. Ridiculous!
although I wouldn't miss the snow tubing........just saying
Given the dilapidated state of the Lodge, here's hoping the the state or either Ligonier/Jenners township condemns it. Would love to see Nutting lose the only real tangible asset up there.
According to the Concession (lease) Agreement,signed by Robert Nutting, President of The Springs at Laurel Mountain LLC, on 05/18/2009, section 3.14 states about the maintenance of the premises. (good repair). 3.15 and 3.16 are also interesting. The fact of the heavy mold in the buildings is an Environmental Impact. This is 3.24. Also I see Liquidated Damages in section 2.10.
