itdoesntmatter wrote:
....and not the start of poor maintenance.
It's also a unique lift, with, as I believe, no others still in operation. It's quirky. A product of the heady, original developers of Whitetail in 1990/91. Snowtime may need to shuffle investment priorities sooner than it thought. At least a chairlift, unlike a hotel and full-service restaurant/bar, isn't subject to the bible beating local electorate who won't permit the devil's liquor (and related year round jobs and revenue for schools) - but that's a different thread.
FreshPow wrote:
.....At least a chairlift, unlike a hotel and full-service restaurant/bar, isn't subject to the bible beating local electorate who won't permit the devil's liquor (and related year round jobs and revenue for schools) - but that's a different thread.
Here here!
Maybe they'll save a little $ on snowmaking for a while?
Didn't realize it wasn't just a high speed detachable quad like you see at other places.
I was there when when the lift stopped running I heard a big vroom from this deseil white plumes of black smoke. Luckily I for some strange reasin was on my touring skis so I just walked up to the experts lift.
But as fresh pow said maybe they will need a new lift or a new engin at the bare minimum. I wonder who will get the new lift tho white to or snowshoes ballhooter hahaha
FreshPow wrote:
itdoesntmatter wrote:
....and not the start of poor maintenance.It's also a unique lift, with, as I believe, no others still in operation. It's quirky. A product of the heady, original developers of Whitetail in 1990/91. Snowtime may need to shuffle investment priorities sooner than it thought. At least a chairlift, unlike a hotel and full-service restaurant/bar, isn't subject to the bible beating local electorate who won't permit the devil's liquor (and related year round jobs and revenue for schools) - but that's a different thread.
The Whitetail Express is a detachable quad manufactured and installed by CTEC/Garaventa in 1991. CTEC built its first detachable lift in 1989, but partnered with Garaventa in 1990 to use Garaventa's detachables. CTEC and Garaventa merged in 1992, and later were rolled into today's Doppelmayr Garaventa Group. (There's been some consolidation in the industry.)
I believe there are still some detachable CTEC/Garaventa lifts similar to Whitetail's in operation, such as Beaver Creek's Grouse Mountain Express (image from www.skiresort.info):
FreshPow, what makes Whitetail's lift unique/quirky? It is pushing 25 years old age now, although a well-maintained lift should last many years. That lift is critical to accessing the majority of Whitetail's terrain (it's a single point of failure for reaching the intermediate and expert terrain), so hopefully Whitetail can get the problems straightened out. I know I'd be very upset if I traveled to Whitetail and was limited to skiing the bunny slopes.
Scott wrote:
FreshPow, what makes Whitetail's lift unique/quirky? It is pushing 25 years old age
As you point out, it's getting up in years. Parts, as I understand it, if not manufacturer knowledge on its nuances are a bit difficult, if not unavailable. These were early era high speed detachables. Other models were/are much more established. That chair was a very splashy and bold statement on Whitetail's opening. It's still the only one in day trip DC skiing. It requires strong local operational knowledge of its fits and issues. Much like any complex piece of machinery. That does exist. Any further comments would be pushing my own understanding. So take those with some grains of salt!
In short, it's usefulness as the backbone of a hill may be ending its reasonable life. Moved over to a new terrain expansion...there's a new extension on life. Hmmm....
FreshPow wrote:
Scott wrote:
FreshPow, what makes Whitetail's lift unique/quirky? It is pushing 25 years old age
As you point out, it's getting up in years. Parts, as I understand it, if not manufacturer knowledge on its nuances are a bit difficult, if not unavailable. These were early era high speed detachables. Other models were/are much more established. That chair was a very splashy and bold statement on Whitetail's opening. It's still the only one in day trip DC skiing. It requires strong local operational knowledge of its fits and issues. Much like any complex piece of machinery. That does exist. Any further comments would be pushing my own understanding. So take those with some grains of salt!
In short, it's usefulness as the backbone of a hill may be ending its reasonable life. Moved over to a new terrain expansion...there's a new extension on life. Hmmm....
It will be interesting to see how that plays out. Hopefully there's still plenty of life left in it, because a new detachable lift would be expensive and I'm not sure they have the budget for that. (Whitetail was originally built by Japanese investors and they took a huge loss, selling Whitetail for pennies on the dollar; a high-speed lift at a day ski area in the weather-fickle Mid-Atlantic wasn't really an economically viable choice at the time, which contributed to the original investors bleeding money.)
For those who saw the lift break down, do you know how long it was out of service? I'd hate to take a day off from work, drive to Whitetail, and then find that lift not operating. Right now they're reporting that all lifts are in operation.
Scott, the lift must of been out for 20 minutes although it in not 100% sure because I toured over to the expert side. But after I saw those giant plumes of black smoke and something that sounded like it was from a 18wheeler. But it looked to me that the backup engine was struggling to accomplish its task (im not a lift tech so idk what it is)
a curious thing I noticed is it seems that they where planting some pines along the left side of a limelight (not sure if it has anything to do with the lift) maybe it would be to give it some cover from wind?
Antoine wrote:
Scott, the lift must of been out for 20 minutes although it in not 100% sure because I toured over to the expert side. But after I saw those giant plumes of black smoke and something that sounded like it was from a 18wheeler. But it looked to me that the backup engine was struggling to accomplish its task (im not a lift tech so idk what it is)
a curious thing I noticed is it seems that they where planting some pines along the left side of a limelight (not sure if it has anything to do with the lift) maybe it would be to give it some cover from wind?
Most lifts do have diesel backups in case of electric failure; the diesel engines are just to help offload the lift and aren't used to run the lifts (I don't think they can run them anywhere near full-speed when on diesel backup). Seeing large plumes of black smoke wouldn't be unusual from the diesel backups. So probably nothing unusual there, other than the fact that they had to go to diesel backup...
I don't think anyone here is bashing Whitetail, just expressing concern that a critical lift would break down twice in a week. Whitetail has some of the best customer support in the region and I'm sure they're doing everything in their power to keep it running smoothly.
I apologize for the title of my post. I phrased it as a question. Yes I was frustrated because twice I have been affected by the lift outage. I posted last week as well and i actually gave kudos for whitetail for doing the right thing and giving me a voucher for a future ticket. Yes I'm frustrated because I have driven a total of 6 hours and have skied maybe 4 hours tops. Sorry but I'm not going to ski the beginner slopes. And yes I admit I was not willing to climb up the slope to the one lift.
Antoine wrote:
"a curious thing I noticed is it seems that they where planting some pines along the left side of a limelight (not sure if it has anything to do with the lift) maybe it would be to give it some cover from wind? "
Yes we saw the pine trees as well, probably a dozen or so. Maybe in a couple of years it would be a tiny area of glade skiing.
Yeah, the pine trees are really weird, mainly because they are on the actual run! I guess they're trying to build glades? I'd love to hear an official answer on this, because randomly planting pine trees on a ski run (especially in the mid-A) seems to defy logic....
Reisen wrote:
Yeah, the pine trees are really weird, mainly because they are on the actual run! I guess they're trying to build glades? I'd love to hear an official answer on this, because randomly planting pine trees on a ski run (especially in the mid-A) seems to defy logic....
That side of the trail is out of reach of snowmaking and/or never a targeted concern as such. It was rarely skiable - except in event of large snowfall years. Might as well plant some vegetation and kind of fill it in. Also helps with erosion control and keeps it looking better. If it creates an occasional glade with natural, so be it!
...something along those lines.
As an engineer I am always amazed when people are surprised when a complicated contraption breaks down. Typically as these lifts get old there are electrical overload problems. They are hard to anticipate. This lift is an early vintage detachable lift. There are many more moving parts than a conventional lift, thus more stuff to break down. It will eventually cost some big coin to replace this lift. They've gotten 25 years out of this lift which to me is pretty good. Perhaps an overhaul can be done during the summer and they can get some more years out of it. That said, if I would have driven 1.5 hours to WT and the lift broke down, I would not be happy either. As far as the pine trees, they could be a wind or sun block.
FreshPow strong> wrote:
Some areas use them as a snow fence to prevent winds blowing across the trail and blowing the snow on Angel Drop. When the winds blow over the top of EZ Rider Quad nothing really shields it from the wind. Just theory. Seven Springs used on Lost Boy and on the North Face.Reisen wrote:
Yeah, the pine trees are really weird, mainly because they are on the actual run! I guess they're trying to build glades? I'd love to hear an official answer on this, because randomly planting pine trees on a ski run (especially in the mid-A) seems to defy logic....
That side of the trail is out of reach of snowmaking and/or never a targeted concern as such. It was rarely skiable - except in event of large snowfall years. Might as well plant some vegetation and kind of fill it in. Also helps with erosion control and keeps it looking better. If it creates an occasional glade with natural, so be it!
...something along those lines.
FreshPow wrote:
Reisen wrote:
Yeah, the pine trees are really weird, mainly because they are on the actual run! I guess they're trying to build glades? I'd love to hear an official answer on this, because randomly planting pine trees on a ski run (especially in the mid-A) seems to defy logic....
That side of the trail is out of reach of snowmaking and/or never a targeted concern as such. It was rarely skiable - except in event of large snowfall years. Might as well plant some vegetation and kind of fill it in. Also helps with erosion control and keeps it looking better. If it creates an occasional glade with natural, so be it!
...something along those lines.
Wouldn't the better answer be to add snowmaking to that side of the trail? If you don't, that makes WT's primary trail (Limelight) pretty narrow. If there's talk of them upgrading to a six pack, they'll definitely need to use the full width of the trail to accomodate the skier traffic.
I feel like I've skied that side of the trail many times over the years, probably late season, where it's had time to fill in.
Come to think of it, do most trails at WT have snowmaking on both sides? I feel like they sometimes blow on one side then push the mounds across with cats, but I'm not positive.
Reisen wrote:
Come to think of it, do most trails at WT have snowmaking on both sides? I feel like they sometimes blow on one side then push the mounds across with cats, but I'm not positive.
Most trails at Whitetail only have the polemount fan guns along one side. On occassion Whitetail will take old-school nozzle guns with a hose and move them to the other side of the trail (when the trail is closed). I think it's fairly common for ski areas to only have snowmaking along one side of a trail, as that reduces the amount of plumbing needed.
They have guns mounted on one side of the trail (west) to take advantage of the prevailing westerlies (did I spell that right?haha) to take advantage of the wind and give the guns more range.
I thought I would tell you guys about the trees they planted (seem to be white pines) they are the fastest growing evergreens in our area and are pretty good at withstanding wind throw, Liberty before they had that project a couple years back had the whole base area covered in them. Also it. Seems they planted some spruces next to the road curiously tho they're all tiny saplings.
As a lifelong Skiier at 7S, I distinctly remember the first 3 or 4 years of the Gunnar Express 6 breaking down multiple times a season. I've been caught on that lift several times as long an hour and have had to hike out from the Bottom of Gunnar to North Face when they havent been able to get the lift moving again. Even at resorts that are as well maintained as 7S, complicated pieces of machinery do break down on occasion.
Speaking of old lifts that break down, there was nothing like the Avalanche lift breaking down and 7S having to purchase a new motor from Snowshoe and install it during the middle of the season.
Just out of curiousity, anybody know, how much does a new detach quad cost? Could WT keep/use the towers?
As for the trees, they need a few hundred more to help with the southern exposure...
RodneyBD wrote:
Just out of curiousity, anybody know, how much does a new detach quad cost? Could WT keep/use the towers?
As for the trees, they need a few hundred more to help with the southern exposure...
Some towers *might* be able to be reused, and that could significantly reduce the cost. A brand new six-pack detach these days can cost as high as $8 million, but the price varies a lot depending on the mountain layout/geography and whether existing towers and footers can be leveraged. For a brand new quad detach, you'd probably be looking at $2.5-$4.5 million. Not pocket change, but there are a variety of options that could be explored, including rebuilding/overhauling an existing lift. And an item like a lift would be amortized across many years.
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