First off all, snow conditions in Summit County Colorado are the best in three years.
Ok, here's what is going on. I can't make right turns. I'll start out trying to make a big GS style right turn, and my body involuntarily shifts to making vary rapid short turns. I don't even complete the short right turns and I move progressively left across the trail. There is no pain in the left leg, and I am not conscious of weakness. The situation can arise when going fast -- or slowly.
The problem does not show up every time I ski. I skied 150k of vert last week, and the problem never appeared. I did 25k today, and the problem showed up. The problem normally appears at the end of a long day of skiing, but it has appeared as early as the first run of the day. Once the problem starts in a day it does not go away.
I have achilles tendonitis, and varicose veins in my left leg.
I do know how to make right turns. I've probably made a million and a half of them in my life.
The only funny thing about the situation was when I went to a clinic to see if they could figure out what was going on. They asked why I was there. I said "because I can't make right turns." I got very strange looks. They see the flu, and torn ACLs, and broken bones. I suspect I was the first to see them becasue I "can't make right turns." They could find nothing wrong other than what was mentioned earlier in the post.
Anybody have any thoughts? Could the achilles tendonitis be the cause of this? Anybody ever hear of anything like this happening?
Very tricky to diagnose over the internet. Maybe next time it happens you could get a ski patroller to follow you for a few runs and see if he can advise??
Thanks Jim. Actually, I have discussed the matter wth about 5 different patrollers, and a like nmber of "yellow jackets" (go slow patrollers). They were all stumped. Said they've never heard of such a thing. Having them follow and look probably wouldn't solve anything as it's not a technique issue it's some type of medical issue.
As an aside, I just got done skiing 41k of vert today, and had no problems. Go figure.
Since I am in Colorado, I'm sure that I can find something to legally smoke that will make me not care that I can't make right turns.
Ya think? LOL!
The imagination could go overboard on something like this, best to consult an MD. Hope it's not something neurological, but you might keep track of when and how long it lasts. Any sypmtoms like a pinched nerve? I also thought of MS or Parkinson's, but wouldn't worry until you have more facts.
Not to turn this into an old guys medical clinic, but I had a weird physical thing happen while skiing in Maine recently. One eye got lazy during a few runs and I got cross-eyed. It was ok on lift ride and then happened again for about three consecutive runs. I was able to ski, but going through an advanced level glade while cross-eyed was not ideal:-) Reflecting on it the next day with a ski buddy I think it was caused by cold temps?? It was around 5 degs the day it happened and quite windy. I think my eye muscle was affected by the cold? But this is something I'll have to talk to eye doc next time I see one. I have noticed in recent years that my peripheral vision is not so sharp/nimble as in younger days, but never had the lazy eye thing before:-o
Youth is wasted on the young.
Muscles that control the eye can get fatigued and cause that. Plus getting old does not help.
Scotty just confirmed these issues with Bob and I are an old guy thing due to wasting our youth. We didn't help by getting old and we're lazy too :-)) Somewhere in there I think he also made a plug for Cialis.
I hear Cialis is great stuff. wink wink nudge nudge
Thanks again, Jim.
Actually, I have consulted MDs about this several times. If February, I visited a clinic in Breckenridge. The MD could find nothing wrong. He checked everything he knew how to check. Then I visited an ER doc, who confimed the I have clots in the varicose veins (apparently northing to worry about according to her). She thought that the reduced blood flow due to the clots MIGHT have been causing nerves to misfire, but she did not feel at all certain about that. Then I consulted a vin specialist who doubted that the clots could have been the casue of the problem.
I'll probably consult a sports medicine MD before I leave Colorado. My main concern here is that I don't have a recurrence of the problem next season.
The reason for my post here more than anything else was to see if anyone had heard of such a malady before.
Skied 37k of vert yesterday, with no recurrence of the right turn problem.
My two cents..
1. If my turns don't feel quite right I try the Jimmy Technique: Stop right where you are, take off both skis, switch feet, and try again. It seriously sometimes helps me, although I'm guessing it's mostly mental.
Speaking of mental, that brings me to point #2
2. You've tried an ER doc and a vascular doc, have you consulted a psychiatrist? Maybe some sessions of intense psychotherapy will help to delve into your subconscious to find the root cause of the problem... ;) ;)
Now, now David just because you put your skis on the wrong foot sometimes..................... I admit I just checked to see if bob started this thread on the first. Sorry Bob. :)
Actually skis that are tuned too far up the shovel can cause grabbing and turning problems. If your skis are usually worn on the same foot each outing with resultant wearing down/dulling of inside edge more than outside edge and then you reverse the skis...there could be an impact...maybe?
Lit is interesting to note that some ski shops designate skis as right or left after performing a binding release check.
Might be karma. Posted zillions of vert skied for us left behind to read after starting to clean up our yards here in the mid-Atlantic.
David wrote:
My two cents..
............
Speaking of mental, that brings me to point #2
2. You've tried an ER doc and a vascular doc, have you consulted a psychiatrist? Maybe some sessions of intense psychotherapy will help to delve into your subconscious to find the root cause of the problem...
i was waiting for someone else to say that - i didn't want to be the first (i am perceived as terse enough already).making turns of varying radii involves voluntary muscle activity somewhat dependent on strength but mostly on simply movement timing. an inability to make a longer radius turn as opposed to a short one on one side is pretty much mental. it is the same as saying i can pick up a pencil with my left hand 10 times but at the 11th time i can pick up two at a time.
i could understand if the gs turns were purely carved and *both* left and right went to hell as perhaps some inability to balance against the skis in the more drawn out turn vs. the quick hits slalom/rebound-y turns provides might make sense but the asymmetry aspect makes that non-sense.
Crush wrote:
David wrote:
My two cents..
............
Speaking of mental, that brings me to point #2
2. You've tried an ER doc and a vascular doc, have you consulted a psychiatrist? Maybe some sessions of intense psychotherapy will help to delve into your subconscious to find the root cause of the problem...
i was waiting for someone else to say that - i didn't want to be the first (i am perceived as terse enough already).making turns of varying radii involves voluntary muscle activity somewhat dependent on strength but mostly on simply movement timing. an inability to make a longer radius turn as opposed to a short one on one side is pretty much mental. it is the same as saying i can pick up a pencil with my left hand 10 times but at the 11th time i can pick up two at a time.
i could understand if the gs turns reen runere purely carved and *both* left and right went to hell as perhaps some inability to balance against the skis in the more drawn out turn vs. the quick hits slalom/rebound-y turns provides might make sense but the asymmetry aspect makes that non-sense.
David, I appreciate the feedback. I doubt that it is a mental issue. I am a somehat accomplished skier with over 25 million feet of vert in the last 20years, and 8.5 in the last 4. The point I was trying to make is that the stuation is completely involuntary. When it's at it's worst I can be on the most mellow green run. I'll try to start a big right turn and involuntarily switch to very rapid short turns. I can even stop and asay, "let's try that again" and start a right turn only to return to the short turns. Thank God that edge control is the best part of my skiing repertoire or I would be in trouble.
The situation does not occur every day that I ski, although it's a rare day that I don't "abort" at least one right turn during a day.
Besides, I think that taking a long series of short turns s more demanding than a few wider ones.
I think it's something neurological, but I'll consult with a ski country sports medicine MD before I leave Colorado.
the above being said, suppose there is another explaination but this is hard to judge as it depends on how someone skis in a physical/mental context - that is for example i am a total "feeler" (PSIA ski intructors will be able to chime in on this) my coaching has always consisted of them telling me to move this or that and you should feel this and i do it like a grind until i feel i t and then i get it.
while i ski i constantly am focusing inward on my body to feel where everything is, how things feel in relation to each,other, turning forces and how they are distributed over my entire body, etc - a very "feel-y" thing.
when i initiate a new turn in say a no-fall situation i go through a fast "body check" to feel my inside hip is being held back as well as my inside foot, my inside ski's outside edge is hooked up, , it rise up feel my torso move up over and forwards, etc blah blah blah blah.
so i guess my point is this could be an asymmetry issue brought on by fatigue induced neurological issue; that is for whatever reason you are starting your right turn "wrong", it does not work and squirts out from under you, and you automatically recover out of it with a short radius turn. is a short-radius turn your usual recovery modus operandi ? most skiers have a recovery method they rely on.
at any rate so if you are *not* a feeler-type skier you may not be aware of the asymmetry and the whole thing becomes very mysterious - i usually *know* why a turn did not work out right away ( i just made an interesting discovery about my inside hand and hip and how that was causing a right turn initiation problem sometimes and that just got fixed - explaination another time) but you may not be catching it, so it seems to just crop up when those undetermined circumstances come together to impede your technique on that side.
oh enough analysis time to go skiing lol
Interesting to hear The Colonial mention tuning; that would be an easy thing to check
Crush wrote:
the above being said, suppose there is another explaination but this is hard to judge as it depends on how someone skis in a physical/mental context - that is for example i am a total "feeler" (PSIA ski intructors will be able to chime in on this) my coaching has always consisted of them telling me to move this or that and you should feel this and i do it like a grind until i feel i t and then i get it.
while i ski i constantly am focusing inward on my body to feel where everything is, how things feel in relation to each,other, turning forces and how they are distributed over my entire body, etc - a very "feel-y" thing.
when i initiate a new turn in say a no-fall situation i go through a fast "body check" to feel my inside hip is being held back as well as my inside foot, my inside ski's outside edge is hooked up, , it rise up feel my torso move up over and forwards, etc blah blah blah blah.
so i guess my point is this could be an asymmetry issue brought on by fatigue induced neurological issue; that is for whatever reason you are starting your right turn "wrong", it does not work and squirts out from under you, and you automatically recover out of it with a short radius turn. is a short-radius turn your usual recovery modus operandi ? most skiers have a recovery method they rely on.
at any rate so if you are *not* a feeler-type skier you may not be aware of the asymmetry and the whole thing becomes very mysterious - i usually *know* why a turn did not work out right away ( i just made an interesting discovery about my inside hand and hip and how that was causing a right turn initiation problem sometimes and that just got fixed - explaination another time) but you may not be catching it, so it seems to just crop up when those undetermined circumstances come together to impede your technique on that side.
oh enough analysis time to go skiing lol
This post got me to thinking about myself. I have mild arthritis in left knee and that leg is actually a little smaller than right because of unconscious favoring over the last 5-10 years when the arthritis started. When skiing I don't turn as well in one direction and I also have a weird thing that I don't consisitently do pole plants when turning in one direction. This is all happening at a sort of subconscious level for the most part. Maybe Bob has something like that going on. When I force myself to do the pole plants in my "bad direction" it feels weird and can even trip me up. I need an instructor who is also a psychiatrist. I wouldn't be surprised if Liberty and Whitetail have several of them:-)
JimK wrote:
This post got me to thinking about myself. I have mild arthritis in left knee and that leg is actually a little smaller than right because of unconscious favoring over the last 5-10 years when the arthritis started. When skiing I don't turn as well in one direction and I also have a weird thing that I don't consistently do pole plants when turning in one direction. This is all happening at a sort of subconscious level for the most part. Maybe Bob has something like that going on. When I force myself to do the pole plants in my "bad direction" it feels weird and can even trip me up. I need an instructor who is also a psychiatrist. I wouldn't be surprised if Liberty and Whitetail have several of them:-)
good - thinking about such things is valuable. there are all sorts of asymmetry problems with the human body, and yes i bet that is an issue with you. i too have a bad left knee due to skiing injuries but for me it is a great training tool; if i make a turn on my heel instead of my whole foot or ball of the foot, it causes an instant very large sharp pain! negative reenforcement lol.
i've found that my left leg is very different - i have my boot canting set up completely different from my right (I "felt" that it was not on edge the same as my right, given the same shin angle), it is slightly shorter (less leverage) etc etc.
the pole-plant observation is quite telling - not that you don't do it (I actually rarely pole plant at this point, even for slalom turns, only moguls and powder/steeps) , but that it feels "weird" (ah ha feel-y talk!) and throws you off. i would guess that you are using that arm/hand to do "something" to your torso to help move in to the start of the new turn, something you don't have to do in the other direction. given the knee problem, you might be not set up at the end of your left turn to start the right one and you use your arm to "get you there" instinctively. what the actual problem is i can't say.
you can probably figure some of it out by yourself by going out on a slushy day (more resistance to turning amplifies problems) on groomed easy terrain and try to make turns using very *equal* pressure on your inside and outside skis with your feet kind of close together, paying particular attention to putting pressure on the *inside* ski or even try doing an almost hockey-stop or sideslip with a lot of pressure on the inside ski. there will be some difference between one side and the other (never mind actually being proficient sking 60% 40% on outside/inside skis just go through the motions) and see if you can "even it out" ... maybe you need to pull in inside foot back a little ("lead change" is notorious for causing asymmetric turns) , or maybe you start it right but you don't continue to keep your outside hip in front of your toes or stuff like that - things that you do naturally with your right leg. that is the part you have to sort out.
David wrote:
My two cents..
1. If my turns don't feel quite right I try the Jimmy Technique: Stop right where you are, take off both skis, switch feet, and try again. It seriously sometimes helps me, although I'm guessing it's mostly mental.
Speaking of mental, that brings me to point #2
2. You've tried an ER doc and a vascular doc, have you consulted a psychiatrist? Maybe some sessions of intense psychotherapy will help to delve into your subconscious to find the root cause of the problem... ;) ;)
re pt 2 -- nahhh, I'd robably scare the hell outtta the shrink!
LOL!
Crush wrote:
the above being said, suppose there is another explaination but this is hard to judge as it depends on how someone skis in a physical/mental context - that is for example i am a total "feeler" (PSIA ski intructors will be able to chime in on this) my coaching has always consisted of them telling me to move this or that and you should feel this and i do it like a grind until i feel i t and then i get it.
while i ski i constantly am focusing inward on my body to feel where everything is, how things feel in relation to each,other, turning forces and how they are distributed over my entire body, etc - a very "feel-y" thing.
when i initiate a new turn in say a no-fall situation i go through a fast "body check" to feel my inside hip is being held back as well as my inside foot, my inside ski's outside edge is hooked up, , it rise up feel my torso move up over and forwards, etc blah blah blah blah.
so i guess my point is this could be an asymmetry issue brought on by fatigue induced neurological issue; that is for whatever reason you are starting your right turn "wrong", it does not work and squirts out from under you, and you automatically recover out of it with a short radius turn. is a short-radius turn your usual recovery modus operandi ? most skiers have a recovery method they rely on.
at any rate so if you are *not* a feeler-type skier you may not be aware of the asymmetry and the whole thing becomes very mysterious - i usually *know* why a turn did not work out right away ( i just made an interesting discovery about my inside hand and hip and how that was causing a right turn initiation problem sometimes and that just got fixed - explaination another time) but you may not be catching it, so it seems to just crop up when those undetermined circumstances come together to impede your technique on that side.
oh enough analysis time to go skiing lol
I appears that our skiing approaches are quite different. I've skied long enough and hard enough that I'm of the Nike school of skiing --I "Just do it." Now before doing a run, I do try to determine my line, and what types of turns I want to make, and if things don't go as planned I try to make adjustments and/or analyze what went wrong. I also normally can figure out why a turn did not go as expected, but my current situation defies my ability to do that.
Thanks for the post, though.
In any event, I'm away from skiing until Thrusday. We'll see what happens then.
Bob,
As I asked in an earlier post, do you notice a similar problem when doing other sports etc that require turning from one side or leg to another, especially when you get tired?
The Colonel
The Colonel wrote:
Bob,
As I asked in an earlier post, do you notice a similar problem when doing other sports etc that require turning from one side or leg to another, especially when you get tired?
The Colonel
Well, Colonel, not that I've ever noticed, although I don't do other sports that really replicate anything close to my skiing motion. I've not noticed it walking or jogging 4 miles jaunts with the dog, and I haven't played tennis since well before the problem started. I guess if the problem were to show up in another sport, I guess it would be tennins. Although the problem seems more likely to show up when I'm tired, it has shown up early in the day when I am fresh, too, and the problem does not show up every day I ski.
Well, I took a week off and then returned to snow country., and have skied the last 7 days
The problem returned in a very small way a few days ago. I listened to my body and I think I have figured out the cause: a very slight groin pull of the adductors in my left leg. We'll see if I am right.
Today will be the 60th day of my season, and tomorow will be my last day of hard skiing this season. I crossed 2 million feet of vert on Tuesday.
Saturday I'll be at an HOA homeowners meeting followed by a few runs at Breckenridge. Sunday will be a road tip day. I'll be scooping up EpicMix points/pins by skiing four resorts in one day: Beaver Creek, Vail, Breck and Keystone.
All of next week will be spent with a few hours of skiing every day at Breck, followed by time working on the condo. Sunday the 27th will be my 70th and final day of my season (most ever for me in one year) -- unless I ski one June day at A-basin :-)
Conditions in Summit County are still superb -- more powder/packed powder than spring --very unusual for this late in the year.
Maybe the problem would go away if you slowed down a bit to smell the roses. Individuals vary of course but sooner or later the body objects to too much, too intense.
Well said, Denis!
bob wrote:
Sunday the 27th will be my 70th and final day of my season (most ever for me in one year) -- unless I ski one June day at A-basin :-)
Maybe I should be the one seeing the psychiatrist for depression after reading this post. I downhilled 5 times and XC'ed 5 times this year. That's it...
Denis wrote:
Maybe the problem would go away if you slowed down a bit to smell the roses. Individuals vary of course but sooner or later the body objects to too much, too intense.
Well, Dennis. You are not the first person to tell me that. I've skied the way I ski for a quarter of a century. My response has always been "when my body tells me to slow down, I will slow down." It hasnn't happened yet.
As far as the medical problem I experienced goes, it seems that all I have to do is stretch my groin muscles. That's not a huge price to pay to allow me to ski the way I want to ski.
Oh, as far as crazy skiers go, there are lot's of 'em in Colorado who do far crazier things than I do, However, I will admit that few people ski harder than I do. One of 'em that does is a guy from Fairfax that I ski with every year. This year he did a million feet of vert in 22 consecutive days..
David wrote:
bob wrote:
Sunday the 27th will be my 70th and final day of my season (most ever for me in one year) -- unless I ski one June day at A-basin :-)
Maybe I should be the one seeing the psychiatrist for depression after reading this post. I downhilled 5 times and XC'ed 5 times this year. That's it...
No need to see a shrink, David.. Simply plan your retirement so that you too can be a crazy hard skiing 63 year old!
Bob, remember what Neil Young said:
It's better to burn out
Than to fade away
JimK wrote:
Bob, remember what Neil Young said:
It's better to burn out
Than to fade away
Here, here, Jim. My sentiments exactly. I think the biggest regret I could ever have is not living life to the fullest extent possible.
It was an unusual day of skiing today. I couldn't start until 2 becasue of an HOA meeting followed by a board of directors meeting.
I thought I was a Whistler. It was raining at the base, sleeting 600 feet above that, and snowing 600 feet above that.
I did three runs and had enough of it.
It's snowing heavily at 9600 feet right now.
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