Howdy folks - My wife and I are considering buying a place in Canaan Valley - hopefully, near Timberline. Does anyone on the board own a ski place in the valley? If so, any advice?

We've spoken to realtors from Canaan Realty and from MountainTop Realty. We are considering 1 of 2 possible options:

1. Buy a cheap place (2 bed 2 bath condo). Upgrade down the road if we utilize it enough to make owning a home worth it.

2. Bite the bullet and buy a nicer place (maybe 3/4 bed 2.5+ bath single family home). Possibly finding another family to go in on the home with us or consider renting it to defray costs some.

We definitely want the place for skiing, but would also use it year-round. Biking, hiking, fishing, etc. I've seen a lot of properties on realtor.com. They've been on the market for a while, so if we go with option 1 above, it looks like it might be hard to unload the condo when we're ready to upgrade. Is that an accurate assessment?

Which areas of the valley see better year-round rental income? Any areas to avoid? Probably looking more at year round rental versus ski season only (sine we'll want to use the place a ton during ski season).

Is it worth it to buy slopeside or near slopeside? Some places along Salamander are on the market and in our range.

I am concerned with spring melt runoff and water damage. Any areas particularly succeptable?

We're planning to meet with a realtor when we go back up in Feb., so I'd like to have as much information as possible before that meeting. Any advice, comments, warnings, etc you can provide would be greatly appreciated!!!!

Thanks,

-=Gill=-

You have to remember when dealing with Timberline, the management will do anything possible to make your rental property less valuable, and less fun.  Just this season they have:

1.  Built a zipline eliminating most of the begininers area and creating an eye sore of a tower essentially in homeowners front yards.

2.  Delayed the ski season by 3 weeks because they had a snowmobile race.

3.  Didn't get the entire mountain open until mid-late January because the snow making strategy was terrible.

4.  Shortened the season dramatically by building a zip line that prevents them from making snow at the base of the mountain.

5.  Announced 3 (maybe 4) different opening days causing booking issues.

I'm sure Fred has done other things over the years that made less sense than this, and undoubtably hurt rentals, but I can not comment on what they are.  Just ask yourself if you can deal with that, just so you can ski some sweet tree lines a few times a year without paying to rent.

Who am I kidding, I just wish I had a ski home.  Usually when I play out these scenarios in my head, I feel that owning at Snowshoe makes more sense.

Snowshoe Pros-

Longer Season

More verticle

More terrain

Cheaper season pass

Western Territory

More snow

Faster lifts

Snowshoe Cons-

Larger crowds

There is no town around to support it.

Less glades

Timberline Pros-

Tree skiing

Whitegrass

Canaan Valley

Dolly Sods

Actual town around with good food and drink

Timberline Cons-

Management

Terrible Lifts

Boy Scout groups

Expensive season pass

Shorter season

Fred Hertz

In Conclusion, each have their issues.  However Snowshoe's focus on maximizing ski season, plus the Western Territory makes me like it more.

Gill wrote:

Gill - as a homeowner in Snowshoe, I can offer a few general thoughts regarding vacation property ...

1. Buy a cheap place (2 bed 2 bath condo). Upgrade down the road if we utilize it enough to make owning a home worth it.

There will be a large cost to upgrade (assuming you mean sell the small place and buy a bigger one) - selling fees, transfer taxes, all the closing fees and potential tax implications depending on how you treated your vacation home for tax purposes 

2. Bite the bullet and buy a nicer place (maybe 3/4 bed 2.5+ bath single family home). Possibly finding another family to go in on the home with us or consider renting it to defray costs some.

Going in with another family is risky.  The marriage is easy but the divorce is a bear.  What if you want to sell and they don't or vice versa?  What if one party has a financial crisis or illness?  Who decides on improvements, personal use, furniture, decor, etc ? ..... I would strongly advise against that approach.

Renting is + / -.  You'll love the rental income and hate the hassle of tentants, etc ... I personally rent mine and try to find that balance each year.  

I've seen a lot of properties on realtor.com. They've been on the market for a while, so if we go with option 1 above, it looks like it might be hard to unload the condo when we're ready to upgrade. Is that an accurate assessment?

It all depends on the market at the time you decide to "upgrade".   Once again, it's not like selling a stock with one click.  Real estate deals are low volume, high expense  transactions.  Remember you'll be the buyer and seller at the same time so you may win on one side and may lose on the other so it basically balances out.

Good luck with your search.  Others may disagree on ownership, but we have really enjoyed our place and have made a lot of good friends in our condo complex over the years.

 

Blue Don 1982 wrote:

Gill wrote:

Gill - as a homeowner in Snowshoe, I can offer a few general thoughts regarding vacation property ...

1. Buy a cheap place (2 bed 2 bath condo). Upgrade down the road if we utilize it enough to make owning a home worth it.

There will be a large cost to upgrade (assuming you mean sell the small place and buy a bigger one) - selling fees, transfer taxes, all the closing fees and potential tax implications depending on how you treated your vacation home for tax purposes 

2. Bite the bullet and buy a nicer place (maybe 3/4 bed 2.5+ bath single family home). Possibly finding another family to go in on the home with us or consider renting it to defray costs some.

Going in with another family is risky.  The marriage is easy but the divorce is a bear.  What if you want to sell and they don't or vice versa?  What if one party has a financial crisis or illness?  Who decides on improvements, personal use, furniture, decor, etc ? ..... I would strongly advise against that approach.

DO YOU WANT TO MAINTAIN A SINGLE HOME ALONG WITH THE MAIN HOUSE. I HAVE A TOWNHOUSE WHICH SORT OF GIVES YOU THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS. BIGGER THAN A CONDO BUT I DON'T HAVE TO MAINTAIN THE GROUNDS. AGREE WITH BLUE DON ABOUT GOING IN WITH ANOTHER FAMILY. EXPECT DISASTER.

Renting is + / -.  You'll love the rental income and hate the hassle of tentants, etc ... I personally rent mine and try to find that balance each year.  

I've seen a lot of properties on realtor.com. They've been on the market for a while, so if we go with option 1 above, it looks like it might be hard to unload the condo when we're ready to upgrade. Is that an accurate assessment?

It all depends on the market at the time you decide to "upgrade".   Once again, it's not like selling a stock with one click.  Real estate deals are low volume, high expense  transactions.  Remember you'll be the buyer and seller at the same time so you may win on one side and may lose on the other so it basically balances out.

ITS HARD TO UNLOAD A VACATION HOME UNLESS YOUR EITHER SELLING IT CHEAP OR IT IS A VERY SPECIAL PLACE. DON'T EXPECT TO MAKE MONEY. I DO NOT RENT MY HOUSE. I DON'T WANT PEOPLE SLEEPING IN MY BED.

Good luck with your search.  Others may disagree on ownership, but we have really enjoyed our place and have made a lot of good friends in our condo complex over the years.

KEEP THE MORTGAGE LOW. YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO RELAX AND ENJOY YOUR VACATION HOME AND NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT FINANCES. DON'T BUY A MAINTENANCE NIGHTMARE LIKE ONE OF THOSE 5 BDRM MCMANSIONS THAT WILL EAT UP YOU MONEY AND TIME WITH MAINTENANCE AND CLEANING. AFFORDABLE COST, LOW MAINTENANCE = FUN AND NO WORRIES.

 

We are owners at snowshoe, and had many of the same questions as you. It came down to what was available, and where our family was most comfortable skiing. I would hesitate to go in with another family for the same reasons, we decided to do it by ourselves. The rentals will be slow in the summer I think. We know how beautiful it is out there in the summer, but not many people are looking to rent in the summer, and there are a lot of places available, so I wouldn't recommend relying on summer and fall rentals to pay for your mortgage. If you can rent at the most popular times - Xmas and New Years and the MLK and pres day holidays you can increase the rates and get pretty good rental income, but that may cut into your ski time more than you want.

I don't think there are too many places in the mid Atlantic where patrons are 100% happy with management. At timberline, things are lean and mean but people complain about slow lifts and not getting trails open. Snowshoe is more focused on getting things open and keeping customers happy but people complain about how expensive and crowded it is. You can't have it both ways unfortunately, so I'd go with the one you and your family are more comfortable at. 

Gill - one more suggestion.  

If you do proceed, after you look at some properties and whittle down your choices, do some due diligence on your own and contact a few existing owners in those complexes / neighborhoods.  I would not rely soley on the words of the agent.  Not that they are bad, but unless they own in that specific place, you may not get the "full" story.

I reached out to a couple owners in my building who were listed on vrbo.com  They were happy to share their experiences (pros + cons) about owning in our bldg.  Now, I usually get 1 or 2 calls a year asking about what it is like to own in our complex.

Personally, mgt at TL scares me to death .  According to Today's TL snow report they still have several major trails that are not open and a couple more with thin bases.  Depending on where you live I would look at Snowshoe unless distance precludes.  Otherwise look at other places in CV area or the condos at TL.

The Colonel

Any of the surrounding communities that are close and not subject to the insane stupidity that is Tline would be fine. 

Yes, nearby owners can be very helpful. They can give you a good idea of how difficult it is to rent, what kind of property management there is, and also shine light on the HOA or condo association if there is one. I was very nervous buying something at a ski area, becuase if it goes under, the value would go down dramatically and quickly. But we love to ski and couldn't resist.

Because of the seasonal nature of the housing around ski areas, don't go into it and expect to make a profit in rentals, and remember that it can be difficult to sell as well. I think prices are still depressed for second homes, certainly if you compare the prices now to the over-inflated values circa 2006.

Do not purchase with another family, even if they are actually "family".  Cannot work for all the reasons given.

A large, individual home will quickly saddle you with respect to maintenance, upkeep, etc.  Do not kid yourself and think that you can handle it all yourself...remember you bought this as a vacation place; you live hours away.  Don't underestimate the burden that would bring.  Consider a smaller place that fits your "size" needs, in a location that includes much of the maintenance issues.

Do NOT believe any realtor statements about rental performance, (or almost anything else, for that matter). As noted, check with others in the neighborhood.

Many, many places in Canaan Valley are under Homeowners Associations.  They are very important to your property, and vary greatly from one place to another.  Check into the Association carefully. Talk to neighbors.  Get financial statements, budgets, capital plans, assessment history, everything.  Ask for something called the Resale Certificate.

Properties away from Timberline itself are much more reasonably priced and unless you buy slopeside at TL, you'll only be minutes from any of the ski areas anyway.  Consider the other on-site amenities that the property will have, since you say you're interested in much more than just skiing.

Lots of bargains available in CV right now.

yellowsnow wrote:

 

Properties away from Timberline itself are much more reasonably priced and unless you buy slopeside at TL, you'll only be minutes from any of the ski areas anyway.  Consider the other on-site amenities that the property will have, since you say you're interested in much more than just skiing.

Lots of bargains available in CV right now.

 

Yes, don't confuse the management of Timberline ski resort with Timberline, the gated community.

There is a townhouse for sale in Cedar Place right now that is owned by two couples, on of which wants to sell and the other doesn't really want to, but the property is listed. Buy what you can afford, don't take in any partners. Canaan Valley/Tucker County is a great place to be all year long, not just in the winter.

Oh, and the comment about buy what you can afford reminds me I meant to add:

Do not base your economics on having rental income.  Make sure you can afford the mortgage, the taxes, utilities, the HOA fees, maintenance, everything WITHOUT any rental income whatsoever.

(And by the way, if you do decide to operate a rental property, your Tucker County property taxes will be DOUBLE that of a non-rental property. And don't forget, Tucker County hotel/motel taxes are 12% as well!)

I tried posting on this just a few minuts ago but it appears to not have gone through.  To get more info on the HOAs and communities in the valley, message me.  I can talk freely then about realtors, and what you need to know when considering a purchse.  One piece of advice offered is paramount.... heed with caution what a realtor will tell you.  They are making a sale and have been known to throw buyers under the bus to mnake a sale.  My wife and I own three properties in the valley.  Two in close proximity to t-line the other a 10 minute drive.  Lot's of pros and cons but the valley is by far a superior area to purchase in over the shoe.

I am one of those condo owners with a direct view of a Zipline tower. Crazy things happen at ski resorts, so it does not phase me. Slopeside access is all I care about and I still have it. Timberline wil not change much under the current ownership. You can count on that but you can also count on the best snow quality in the Mid-Atlantic, a great group of people (especially the condo and homeowners), and a relatively short drive thanks in part to Corridor H. Just be guided by the notion that vacation home ownership is a lifestyle choice, NOT an investment.

PS Pre Memorial Day season pass purchases are pretty reasonable. The pass pays for itself after 7 visits. Also, I have had lots of work done on my condo and have found local contractors to be reasonable and honest.

Be sure to get a copy of HOA ByLaws as well as any Rules and Regulations and read them before buying.

Thanks everyone for all of the advice/ Lots to digest!

I will definitely get in touch with you. You can reach me at "snowslider at gmail dot com" I would love to hear your list of pros and cons.

I really appreciate all the help!!!